Quebec’s tuition protesters are the Greeks of Canada

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wilde

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Gee, ... I certainly hope none of the sensitive types feel they're being mislead into reading contrary opinions.
Looks like you are still unclear as to why some of us thought your previous post could be construed as misleading. Hint, it had nothing to with the opinion being contrary.
 

Cock Throppled

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That National Post article is laughably simplistic and stupid.

The only thing that applies is SOME people benefited from inflation over the years, but a lot were also hurt by it and continue to suffer from it. Prices go up for people of all ages, not just students.

It's not the older generation who have to have the latest, greatest cell phones and highest usage plans.

It's not the older generation who demand the newest computers, PDA's, games, clothing, piercings, tattoos, make-up and assorted crap they don't really need, but want.

It's not the older generation who choose to buy everything NOW instead of saving for it when they can afford it.

It's not the older generation accepting the advertising thrust at them and accepting outrageous fees for service without question.

It's not the older generation buying over-priced property and going into debt forever WILLINGLY.

A little restraint and a lot more prudence would get students a lot more in the long run.

Have any of the students so disturbed by having to pay a higher portion of the education they are getting (which, incidentally most benefit them in the long run) ever thought of saving for their education?

So, because Quebec has had low tuition for previous generations there should never be an increase? Yeah, that applies to everything in the real world, doesn't it?

I'm fairly well-off now and I didn't do it by breaking windows and whining. I started a few businesses and sacrificed any extras to make them work. I slept in the office, never ate out, took fucking buses to meetings to save on parking, etc etc. I'm not alone, many others who make successes of themselves do the same.

The students haven't earned the right to say they've had enough.
 

DavidMR

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Looks like you are still unclear as to why some of us thought your previous post could be construed as misleading. Hint, it had nothing to with the opinion being contrary.
I am not unclear at all. There was nothing misleading.
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
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Comparing Canada Pension to Quebec tuition to see who has the sense of entitlement?

Hmmm, looks like the CPP contributions have consistently increased over the past 30+ years.
http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/isp/cpp/contribrates.shtml#years8504

Quebec tuitions have been essentially frozen for the past 30+ years. Tuition has actually decreased over the past 30 years if we take inflation to account.

Doesn't look like a good argument for pensions having a sense of entitlement.


Whether or not CPP contributions have consistently increased has nothing to do with the point he's making: that generations after baby boomers will be paying for something that more than likely won't be around for them when their time comes to retire. But regardless, that's just the example the author chose, it's not like it's the only one.

Personally I had in mind the environmental legacy Canadians are leaving for future generations to deal with. I don't think there's anyone (except for Silky, maybe) who can seriously argue that our lack of knowledge or understanding in the past and the current lack of commitment and will are not seriously compromising what we're leaving for the next generation and the ones after it.

(Right now is when people will look back upon in anger and contempt. Because now we know. But now we're pretending not to know so we can keep cruising without affecting our comfortable, convenient consumerism, profitable growth without having to ask the real questions, make considerable sacrifice and inevitably slow waaay down. But anyway, that's for another discussion.)

I can think of other ones as well. The new realities of the job market is another one (see Hank's post). But the quotes lower spell it out rather clearly.




That National Post article is laughably simplistic and stupid.

The only thing that applies is SOME people benefited from inflation over the years, but a lot were also hurt by it and continue to suffer from it. Prices go up for people of all ages, not just students.

It's not the older generation who have to have the latest, greatest cell phones and highest usage plans.

It's not the older generation who demand the newest computers, PDA's, games, clothing, piercings, tattoos, make-up and assorted crap they don't really need, but want.

It's not the older generation who choose to buy everything NOW instead of saving for it when they can afford it.

It's not the older generation accepting the advertising thrust at them and accepting outrageous fees for service without question.

It's not the older generation buying over-priced property and going into debt forever WILLINGLY.

A little restraint and a lot more prudence would get students a lot more in the long run.

Have any of the students so disturbed by having to pay a higher portion of the education they are getting (which, incidentally most benefit them in the long run) ever thought of saving for their education?

So, because Quebec has had low tuition for previous generations there should never be an increase? Yeah, that applies to everything in the real world, doesn't it?

I'm fairly well-off now and I didn't do it by breaking windows and whining. I started a few businesses and sacrificed any extras to make them work. I slept in the office, never ate out, took fucking buses to meetings to save on parking, etc etc. I'm not alone, many others who make successes of themselves do the same.

The students haven't earned the right to say they've had enough.


Have any more of those stereotypes to unload?

Are you both just pretending that the world, the economy or the job market today are nothing like what they were when you started out? This isn't a contentious question, this is reality. Pulling out your "well I worked hard and ended up with all I have so that's is all anyone has to do to end up with the same. And if they don't, then they didn't work hard enough and that's their problem." You may truly believe this but that doesn't mean it's true in real life. Because newsflash: it isn't. That is an outdated, completely unrealistic way to see the current economy and job market.




Declining Standard of Living

A lot has happened since 1976. The Canadian economy has grown 108%, after controlling for inflation. On average, it now produces an extra $35,000 per household.

Despite this additional prosperity, a silent generational crisis occurs in homes across the land, one we neglect because Canadians are stuck in stale political debates. The crisis becomes clear when we consider a simple “Then and Now” story. Picture it: the mid-1970s in Canada. Byaby Boomers were moving beyond their sex, drugs and rock and roll phase to build families, communities and enterprises. Then the average household income for a young couple was $65,160, adjusting for inflation and expressing in current dollars. 54% of young women contributed to this income.








Flash forward to the present. 82% of women now contribute income, while young men’s employment remains stable. Despite all this extra adult time in the labour market, average household income for a young couple today is $68,300, just slightly higher than 35 years earlier.

It is worrisome for a country’s standard of living when we ask a generation to make do with household incomes that flat-lined despite a dramatic increase in adult time devoted to earning. But the reality is bleaker still when we recognize that the primary cost of living –housing –has skyrocketed over the same period. In 1976, the average price for Canadian housing was $192,390, again controlling for inflation and reporting in today’s currency. Today, it is $339,045. That’s an increase of 76%.

When housing costs nearly double at the same moment that household incomes stall for a group of adults who are more committed to the labour market than any previous generation, we’re talking about a massive social and economic change –one akin to a silent, but no less damaging, tectonic shift. The generation raising kids today is squeezed for time at home; they are squeezed for income even if they are not ‘poor’ because of the cost of housing; and they are squeezed for services like childcare that will help them balance successfully raising a family with earning a living. In short, this generation can no longer count on a market in which they earn and purchase a standard of living that approximates what their parents enjoyed, even though the economy has grown a rate that far outpaces (by 44%) the rate of population growth.

http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/declining-standard-of-living/



Intergenerational Breach of Trust

At its root, the decline in the standard of living for the generation raising young kids reflects timing. The timing is good or bad –depending on whose shoes you stand in. While household incomes for young couples may have flat lined across Canada since 1976, they have increased by 16% for those approaching retirement today compared to the mid-70s. Similarly, just as the 76% real increase in the cost of housing may be the primary source of debt for young families, it is also the primary source of wealth for the Baby Boom generation that is now retiring.

With this additional income and wealth, many Boomers and junior seniors are transforming expectations of retirement. Many in “Generation Cruise” are globetrotting or purchasing second homes in desirable destinations. A rich and rewarding retirement is a reasonable pursuit for any population that is living longer and healthier lives than ever before, as we are in Canada.

But enriching retirement expectations while ignoring debts left for the future to pay is far less reasonable. Three trends are alarming:

1. Statistics Canada data show that our federal debt/GDP ratio has increased 114% since 1976. That means the debt has more than doubled relative to the size of the economy, even though the economy itself has increased by more than 100%.

2. International Energy Association data reveal that Canada’s Carbon Dioxide emissions per person have remained constant since 1976. By contrast, 15 other OECD countries have reduced their per capita emissions, including Sweden (-53%); France (-34%); Germany (-26%); Denmark (-23%); the UK (-20%); and the US (-13%). Presently, Canada is among the very highest per capita emitters in the OECD.

3. UNICEF and the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) ranks Canada among the very worst affluent countries when it comes to investing in families with preschool age children.

This is a bad deal.

.....


Canadians have been reticent to build new social architecture since the 1970s in response to the dramatically different circumstances facing the Generation raising young kids today.

This reticence begs questions about an intergenerational breach of trust –Have Canadians who came of age as adults starting in the 1970s borrowed more from their children than previous generations? Do they no longer wish their children and grandchildren to have the same standard of living from which they benefited?

The most recent federal election implies the answer is ‘Yes’ to both questions.

.....

http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/intergenerational-breach-of-trust/



While Boomer blaming is not my interest, a Canadian commitment to personal responsibility does behoove us all to ask and answer the question: Do I leave as much as I use over my lifetime? The fact that Canada’s debt to GDP ratio was 26 per cent in 1976 and 46 per cent as of 2008 (before the recession) sounds some alarm bells. Boomers leave larger public debts than they inherited from the previous generation, even though on average they have stronger financial situations than did near-retirees in the 1970s. In addition, Canada’s environmental footprint has not improved over Boomer’s adult lives despite growing worries about climate change.

Because of their influence in our boardrooms, legislatures and as voters, Boomers are essential. They could choose to become proponents of a better deal for their kids’ generation and grandchildren. In so doing, they would restore greater equity between generations, and leave a more solid foundation from which Gen Squeeze can address looming fiscal and environmental debts.


http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamil...r-critique-helps-kershaw-refine-conversation/





But if we're specifically talking about the reasons for the strike, what is relevant that you are either unaware of (because Canadian media has done such a piss poor job of explaining the background/context of this whole thing) or are unwilling to understand (because I've already posted about it but clearly some people either want to ignore it or aren't interested in reading about so just skipped it), and what makes all of the repeated attempts to make this about "entitled" students and make comparisons that are really irrelevant. I'm going to post it once more, on its own and not as part of an article:


These two pages do what the media is apparently too incompetent to do and explain what this is about without resorting to the lowest common denominator, as seems to be most appealing to many. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree with their position but it does mean there's a specific context which is being completely ignored. Without the proper context, I'm sorry but opinions, whether in favor or against, are actually completely irrelevant and useless.

(If anyone is going to ignore it again, then from now on I'll simply assume they're just trolling.)



<embed src="http://embedit.in/oXxG3KdBCS.swf" height="571" width="568" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true">






<embed src="http://embedit.in/59nAlyG5Ak.swf" height="441" width="466" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true">





And re-posting this link:

Ten Points Everyone Should Know About the Quebec Student Movement





This appeal by Quebec post-secondary teachers, signed initially by 21 professors, has now been signed by more than 1,600 others in support of their students.


As professors who strive to bequeath knowledge to all those who seek an education, we support the students striking in democratic defense of accessibility to university education and in justified opposition to the commodification of education. We say to these student youth who are standing firm that they are not alone.

Beyond the legitimate demands linked to the precariousness of student status, it is the future of education and Quebec society that is at stake in the conflict between the students and the government. This strike is an extension of the numerous struggles that have emerged in recent years challenging the subordination of the public good to private interests with the help of a scandalously obliging government.


An Increase That Impoverishes Education

The most immediate issue in the current conflict is of course the increase in education fees. This 75 per cent increase, we note, follows the 30 per cent increase imposed since 2008. These increases are draconian, and they fit within a logic of privatization of the funding of our public services. Among its most obvious consequences, we can anticipate a substantial increase in student indebtedness, as we see in the rest of Canada and in the Anglo-Saxon world as a whole, as well as a significant decrease in accessibility to education.

This privatization of university funding, based on a neoliberal premise, treats students as customers. To profit from their investment, they will be tempted to choose their area of study in terms of its financial yield and potential for employment. The logic of indebtedness regiments the students de facto in the world of finance, and subordinates their decisions to the bankers. The student thereby becomes an agent of reproduction of the social order, instead of a citizen participating fully in the evolution of his or her society. Academic freedom and the entire critical dimension of university education would appear to be threatened with obsolescence.

The discourse of the Liberals, the ADQ/CAQistes and the university administrations claims that the increase will help solve the problem of “under-funding” of Quebec universities. But we should instead be talking about “malfunding,” considering the huge transfer of funds once devoted to education and basic research to investments in real estate, private research, advertising and the financing of a powerful bureaucracy. In this sense, the central issue is less the under-funding than what we choose to fund in our universities. To what degree are we prepared to sacrifice courses considered unprofitable, to reduce accessibility to studies in order to feed the endless appetite of the boards of directors?


From One Revolution to Another

Underlying the debate over the increase in education fees is a conflict between different models of education. Finance Minister Raymond Bachand evokes a “cultural revolution” when he attacks the achievements of the Quiet Revolution by returning education fees to what they were prior to 1968, when the university was essentially reserved to a male elite. The creation of a more egalitarian system of education, such as we enjoyed until the 1990s, was the end result of a broad collective debate expressed, for example, through the Parent Commission and the vitality of the student movement of that time.

We note today that the conservative revolution being implemented by the Liberal government is not the product of any debate and is presented to us as an inevitability. Symptomatic in this regard is the Agreement to lift the lid on student fees (Pacte sur le dégel des droits de scolarité) announced in 2010. It was based on a sham consensus featuring the representatives of the Chamber of Commerce, the Conseil du Patronat and neoliberal think tanks (IEDM, CIRANO), organized of course under the leadership of the bard of the lucides, Lucien Bouchard himself. The denial of any form of opposition or dialogue opened the way to Raymond Bachand's budgets, just as the injunctions of the “banksters” [English in original] have imposed austerity policies here and elsewhere in the world.

As a result, we have to consider the student movement and its demands as a voice of resistance. For several years now, the students have been presenting an intelligent analysis of the issues related to post-secondary education, and calling for a public debate, a débat de société on the future of education. This demand has been met by a dogmatic refusal to open the dialogue and recognize the students as legitimate interlocutors. This stiff resistance explains the fact that the debate is now being expressed in the streets. The violent police repression of the students is the material expression of the contempt for those who struggle, often imaginatively, to defend what they know is precious to each of us: education as a public good.


Everyone United Against the Increase

Considering that the increase in education fees masks an ongoing privatization of funding of the universities, that it challenges universality as a model of accessibility to post-secondary studies, and that it furthers the transformation of institutions of learning into mere market organizations, we think the unlimited general strike is a justified method in the circumstances and that the students' demands for a freeze on student fees and free education are legitimate.

The students are inviting us to build a new political way of thinking (imaginaire) that can revive the democratic and modern foundations of the educational system and of Quebec society as a whole. Within this perspective, we greet their call to general mobilization as an invitation to defend the right not only to higher education but also to the civilizing implications of the university. As professors, we respond: We are all students!




The idea behind low tuition fees or free post secondary education isn't to avoid having to pay altogether. The deal is that students would be paying, through their taxes, once they were educated and working. The fact that this has been the case since the 70's -meaning, every adult in Quebec who has studied since then, has enjoyed an inexpensive education, with the understanding that they would be paying later, through their taxes.

What this tuition hike represent is a radical change to that system. So when you look at it from that perspective, yes, those who have enjoyed the benefits of cheap education are now saying "no, we don't want to pay for the next generation". And yes, that does seem pretty entitled. But most importantly, what the students are saying is that a decision to scrap this system that was a result of a social consensus needs to be debated and not left up to the government to make that call alone. It's pretty reasonable and there is nothing "entitled" about that.


I don't know but when the US media can understand/represent the issue accurately (via the Associated Press) while most of Canadian media is still way out in the field, ranting and foaming at the mouth, still totally missing what this is about....it's pretty sad. I mean even FOX gets it ffs (via the Associated Press).


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/05/26/quiet-revolution-old-dreams-fuel-quebec-protests/





Hank got it....



I think it is a valid argument that old farts like me are the ones who have reaped the benefit of our economy (as in the opinion posted by Mlle Bijou above).

There was, however, still a sense of optimism then that we would all be able to afford the same lifestyle as our parents. You think any of these advantages are available to today's youth?

We had no idea that we would be engaged in a race to the bottom for wages with workers from the rest of the world; "free trade" hadn't yet reared its head to benefit corporations so that they could just close their shops and move if they had to pay employees enough that they could buy the things they were making. Henry Ford's idea of responsible businesses that paid real wages was still the norm. The family-owned businesses in my hometown didn't have to compete with Wal-Mart and their cheap crap. The difference between what company owners (since replaced by corporation board members) or "investment bankers" made and what people made in real jobs that produced goods or services wasn't at the obscene levels it is now.

I don't find it remotely surprising that young people feel that they are getting a raw deal and that their futures have been screwed by the debts that people like me have benefitted from. And I don't blame them for being pissed. The protests are not rooted solely in the details of the tuition hikes; they represent something more, much like the Occupy Wall Street protests. We will be seeing more and more of this kind of frustration being expressed in the streets, we might as well get used to it, and think about ways to solve it that don't involve batons and tear gas and walled communities.
 

Cock Throppled

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2003
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There was no "radical change in the system".

It was a simple, relatively small increase in an already heavily subsidized tuition structure.

The same way everything else increases.

And in case anyone is wondering - those subsidies come from the taxes collected primarily from the previous generation. Taxes on property, businesses, purchases and income. The tuition hikes still leave these students paying less for their educations than most of North America.

It looks more like they see themselves as special and removed from the realities of increasing costs associated with delivering goods and services throughout our economy.

For that, I DO blame the previous generation for raising and praising a group of self-indulgent, privileged pricks who have been told they are so special rules don't apply to them.
 

wilde

Sinnear Member
Jun 4, 2003
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I am not unclear at all. There was nothing misleading.
You wrote:

An article in a well-known American newspaper on the Quebec student protests and the Govt's response:


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/o...dly-northern-neighbor.html?_r=1&smid=tw-share
You chose to emphasize that the article is in a "well-known American newspaper" which turned out to be:

actually, the article is on the opinion page, and was written by Laurence Bherer and Pascale Dufour, who are associate professors of political science at the University of Montreal
Hence, misleading (this opinion is conferred by 2 other perbites). While the misleading intro was most likely unintentional, it was misleading nevertheless. Since you don't agree then let's agree to disagree on this one...
 

wilde

Sinnear Member
Jun 4, 2003
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Let me ask you a question Ms. Bijou. Is higher education a right or a privilege? Where each of us stand on this question goes a long way towards our attitude on the Quebec tuition protests...
 

Cock Throppled

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2003
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I was contacted by a friend who runs a small business downtown Montreal.

His business is off 50% because of the nightly demonstrations and he's worried about the summer tourist season because of the negative press they have been getting internationally, particularly in the US.

Irony of irony - he employs a number of university students and those jobs may be at risk.
 

DavidMR

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Mar 27, 2009
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You wrote:



You chose to emphasize that the article is in a "well-known American newspaper" which turned out to be:



Hence, misleading (this opinion is conferred by 2 other perbites). While the misleading intro was most likely unintentional, it was misleading nevertheless. Since you don't agree then let's agree to disagree on this one...

I agree this is incredibly tiresome.


The sentence, "Hence, misleading (this opinion is conferred by 2 other perbites)." reminds me of the kind of atmosphere you get on ideologically driven chat boards where conformity is expected. Your question to another poster, putting the issue in the "right vs privilege" terms that are usually reserved for teenagers demanding a drivers licence tells me that this is all about supposed value judgements and totally emotive political rhetoric.
 

wilde

Sinnear Member
Jun 4, 2003
3,037
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I agree this is incredibly tiresome.


The sentence, "Hence, misleading (this opinion is conferred by 2 other perbites)." reminds me of the kind of atmosphere you get on ideologically driven chat boards where conformity is expected. Your question to another poster, putting the issue in the "right vs privilege" terms that are usually reserved for teenagers demanding a drivers licence tells me that this is all about supposed value judgements and totally emotive political rhetoric.
I only wrote the conferred by... because otherwise it could seem like I am the only who felt that it was misleading. I guess you just can't help it to take another shot at me. Anyhow, moving on...
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,136
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48
Montréal
There was no "radical change in the system".

It was a simple, relatively small increase in an already heavily subsidized tuition structure.

The same way everything else increases.

And in case anyone is wondering - those subsidies come from the taxes collected primarily from the previous generation. Taxes on property, businesses, purchases and income. The tuition hikes still leave these students paying less for their educations than most of North America.

It looks more like they see themselves as special and removed from the realities of increasing costs associated with delivering goods and services throughout our economy.

For that, I DO blame the previous generation for raising and praising a group of self-indulgent, privileged pricks who have been told they are so special rules don't apply to them.


Actually, it looks more like you've just stubbornly decided you know better and they're just spoiled and entitled complainers. Which is your right, of course. But it's your own personal judgement and not some undeniable truth based on facts. Seems like you have a serious and bitter chip on your shoulder. And you obviously have not bothered to read the "Declining Standard of Living" and "Intergenerational breach of trust" quotes above or probably any of the others either since you still don't seem to get that it isn't about the actual amount of the increase or about not paying for education. You've already decided and facts aren't about to get in the way of what you think. So suit yourself, if it makes you feel better or righteous. But it doesn't actually do much in the way of addressing the issue at hand. Nevermind that you don't live in Quebec, don't pay taxes in Quebec so really, how does that even affect you?


Yes, it is a radical change from the current model. No one but you is claiming otherwise:





If we take into account the previous increases (from 2007-2008 to 2011-2012)

This is tied to a much larger plan to privatize Quebec’s public services. Raymond Bachand, the Minister of Finance, has referred to these reforms as a “Cultural Revolution.”

This ‘revolution’ is taking place in an international economic context that puts austerity measures such as fee increases and privatization at the top of government agendas.
In Europe, the United States and Canada, governments are telling their populations that they have no money left because of the 2008 recession. They therefore argue that public services must be privatized and user fees should be implemented in order to avoid bankruptcy. In other words, Western governments claim that collective and accessible public services such as education are too expensive and that we -students and ordinary people- should now bear the costs as individuals.

Jean Charest and his ministers want us to believe that privatization and fee increases are as natural as rain falling from the sky. In short, we are being told by politicians that this is not a political question so much as a strictly economic one. This is not true. When we look back at recent history, we quickly realize that this is really a political issue. Over the last ten years, Quebec governments have significantly cut their revenues coming mainly from income taxes. This money was given back mainly to wealthy individuals and corporations in the form of tax cuts and fiscal reforms. Now the government is imposing a tuition increase that will generate a total $265 million in revenue for universities.

Does the government really have a choice?
If the government had not made the political decision to weaken our tax system, we would have all the money we need to publicly finance our public services and keep them accessible. Today, if we collectively decide to protect our tax-based education funding, we could reverse that tendency.

But why would we want education to be funded through taxes instead of user fees? User fees are considered regressive because they ignore people’s financial capacities and reproduce social inequalities. Taxes, however, can be proportional to revenues, taking into account people’s paying capacities and ensuring wealth redistribution. By switching from a tax-based funding to a fee-based funding of education, Jean Charest makes it cheaper for rich people to attend universities, while low income people will have to choose between withdrawing from school or being burdened with massive debt. In this commodification of education, students are treated as consumers and not as the citizens of tomorrow’s society.


But aren’t our universities underfunded?
Actually, Quebec’s universities already have all the money they need. They disproportionately spend it, however, on private research for corporations instead of on teaching and student resources. Indeed, within the OECD, only the United States and South Korea spend more public funds per student than Quebec!3 So Quebec has the funds for universities. Public subsidies and contracts for research to universities have more than doubled between 1995-1996 and 2005-2006, passing from $721 million to $1,276 billion in 2006 constant dollars.

That means tuition increases are unnecessary, since they are the consequence not of underfunding, but of mis-spending. The current system prioritizes corporate research over actual teaching. But do we have a choice? Of course! That’s where the political struggle kicks in. Since tuition increase is absolutely unnecessary, we should oppose to it for two reasons: 1) Because it is an unfair measure that will threaten access to education, increase student debt and deteriorate student living conditions. 2) Because education is a right, not a commodity nor a privilege. Since education is a right, it is as unacceptable to pay for it as it would be to pay for the right to vote. We should not accept a society where we cannot guarantee all citizens the respect of their rights, including the right to education.


The average student’s financial situation is already difficult, and the 2012 tuition increases will only make things worse. In Quebec, 64.1% of post-secondary students had a paid job during the school year in 2007.5 These working students dedicated an average of 17.6 hours a week to their job; research shows that working more than 15 hours a week while studying full time has a deleterious effect on students’ grades.6 While Charest’s government wants to raise Quebec students’ tuition to the Canadian average, the Canadian Federation of Students says the average debt for university graduates in the rest of the country is already almost $27,000—not a model we want to emulate. Of course, politicians and the media will try to discredit a legitimate student strike by claiming that such movements are lead by frivolous student leaders. But history has shown that when the student movement responds with determination and solidarity, the population and the politicians eventually have to admit the seriousness of its claims, and start paying attention.

Students did not choose to face a tuition increase in 2012. The government decided to impose it. Most students would obviously prefer to calmly stay in classrooms and finish their term on time, rather than spend their energy in a strike. But when faced with a great social challenge, we have to consider putting our studies on hold to participate in shaping our society’s future in a more just way. Fighting for accessible education is a serious matter that will have repercussions for many generations to come. Besides, a strike is no holiday, despite stereotypes to the contrary. Going on strike is about students giving themselves the power to coalesce around a common goal, which takes a lot of time and energy from thousands of people from various personal backgrounds. A minority of students can never create this sort a general movement

http://www.bloquonslahausse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Why-Should-We-Strike-internet.pdf




No, the students are not claiming their education should be free. They want to debate when they should be expected to pay for it, which up until now has been later in life, the approach on which there was a consensus back in the 70's, in which people who are paying property taxes now were a part of.

Clearly it seems that the student are entitled to question the way funds are managed and as a society people have a right to demand accountability and better management of these funds that come from their taxes. If you are satisfied with complacency and blind acceptance of what governments do and feel the only way you get a say is every four years on election day - that is also your right. But that doesn't make others who do not agree but instead demand to have a say and refuse to quietly allow government absolute power over all policies and decisions "entitled", "privileged pricks" for demanding that.

You probably wont read this either but it's all very clear.




The Charest government has argued that Québec’s universities are severely underfunded and that in austere times like these students ought to pay their “fair share.” One can surely disagree with Charest’s argument, but this does not seem to explain the extraordinary passion driving the strike.

...

MODERN QUÉBEC was founded in the crucible of “la révolution tranquille” (the quiet revolution) of the 1960s, when Quebeckers emerged from “la grande noirceur” (the great darkness) and turned against the archconservative government of Maurice Duplessis, who ruled Québec from 1944 to 1959. Québec society under Duplessis was marked by rigid social hierarchies: a local political elite entrenched by rampant nepotism, an Anglophone minority running the economy, and a Catholic Church watching over the citizens’ beliefs and mores through the education system and Québec’s cultural institutions. The quiet revolution not only separated church and state and laid the groundwork for Québec’s political, economic, and cultural self-determination; it also aimed to dismantle these social hierarchies and create an inclusive society based on social solidarity and equality of opportunity. In this respect, Québec chose to follow European welfare states (including, of course, France) rather than the brand of neoliberalism advocated by economists such as Milton Friedman during the same era in the United States.

A key element of Québec’s transformation was the reform of the education system, whose many shortcomings were documented in five volumes by a royal commission headed by Alphonse-Marie Parent. Reformers both modernized the curriculum and abolished the many arbitrary barriers to admission based on gender and religion and, above all, wealth. In essence, going to university had been the privilege of affluent young men, more likely Anglophone than Francophone, who used their degree as an entrée-billet to Québec’s elite—becoming doctors, lawyers, businessmen, politicians, clerics, and so on. Statistics for the early 1960s show that 11 percent of Anglophones and 3 percent of Francophones aged twenty to twenty-four went to university, and that only 14 percent of the students were women.

Against this background, the Parent commission proposed a public system of higher education that would allow everyone with the relevant skills to study. To ensure accessibility, it recommended abolishing tuitions altogether in the long run. Going to university shouldn’t depend on the size of one’s wallet or on other arbitrary factors such as gender, religion, and language. In this spirit, the Québec Liberal Party, the same party now championing the tuition raise, promised in its 1960 election campaign to ensure “completely free education from elementary school to university for all students with the required talent and will.

Although universities never became free in Québec, tuition remained frozen at $540 between 1968 and 1988. And thanks in large part to a tradition of vigorous student protests, increases since then have been relatively modest. Meanwhile, the students never gave up on the quiet revolution’s goal of free higher education. That’s why eliminating tuitions over a period of five years was a core demand of the counter-proposal that Québec’s largest student association, the Coalition Large de l’Association pour une Solidarité Syndicale Étudiante (CLASSE), submitted to the Charest government at the beginning of May. The failure to recognize that free higher education is a distinctive social value rooted in Québec history and culture accounts for much of the puzzlement, indifference, and indignation about the strike outside the region. To take just one example: in a particularly insensitive op-ed piece in Canada’s main upscale English newspaper, the Globe and Mail, former business magazine editor Margaret Wente ridiculed the demands of Québec students and portrayed them as spoiled brats (“sociology, anthropology, philosophy, arts, and victim-studies students, whose degrees are worthless in a world that increasingly demands hard skills”). The piece garnered more than 2,000 reader comments, most of them cheering Wente.

...

Quite apart from whether raising tuition fees is morally justified, one student had doubts about its economic necessity. He mentioned the Québec government’s mismanagement of public funds in recent years, in particular the embezzlements connected to the notoriously corrupt construction industry. Students also distrust the lamentations of university administrators about underfunding. In 2006, for example, it was revealed that the Université du Québec à Montréal had squandered hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on the bungled construction of a new science center. No wonder that one of the main demands of the striking students is that university spending be subject to a rigorous system of oversight in the future.

....

While they don’t deny ownership rights, they argue that higher education is not like a car or a television (“Against the Commercialization of Knowledge,” a large banner at one of the demonstrations summarized the concern). In their view, the tuition raise is evidence for the transformation of higher education from a public good into a private commodity. And this, in turn, is just one manifestation of what they see as the government’s broader neoliberal agenda: trimming social programs, tax cuts for the wealthy, economic growth at the expense of the environment. That’s why in April they joined a demonstration against the Plan Nord of the Charest government, an ambitious project to invest $80 billion over twenty-five years into exploiting the natural resources in northern Québec. Where the Charest government sees the creation of 20,000 new jobs per year, the students see greedy politicians and corporations destroying the environment and the ancestral homeland of First Nations communities in order to enrich themselves. The sense of marching against the totalitarian power of international capital, corrupt politicians, and the mass media—disguised for gullible citizens as liberal democracy and the free market—helps to explain the talk of a printemps érable. It also connects the Québec student protests to the worldwide Occupy movement.

Leaving aside the question of whether a neoliberal cabal is indeed running Québec, the lure to commodify higher education is certainly one that universities find increasingly hard to resist, especially since the 2008 economic crisis has led to a decrease of public funds, alumni donations, and returns on endowments. It’s not surprising that administrators at McGill, which can bank on its international reputation to attract well-endowed students, have been among the most vocal supporters of the tuition raise. Apart from the accessibility problem (which, as we saw, can be addressed through adequate financial aid programs), this gives rise to a new question: what will happen to the content of higher education if universities turn into service providers? The fear is that curricula will no longer be determined by scholarly and educational considerations, but by what students are willing to buy, namely, skills that will pay off on the job market. How will this affect disciplines that teach things that aren’t profitable in this way, especially the humanities and parts of the social sciences? Like universities elsewhere in North America, McGill is no longer run by professors, but by academic managers who often think about higher education in market terms.

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online.php?id=608






Deep in the Quebec struggle is a culture of solidarity and security, a social fabric, a sense of community that endures and mobilizes a powerful defense of their commonwealth.

It is precisely this that Margaret Thatcher declared war on when she said the project of neoliberalism is to change the heart and soul of a “collectivist” spirit. Indeed, the Finance Minister of a Quebec Liberal government not shy about their plan to reorganize Quebecois life through fiscal discipline, recently called austerity policies “a cultural revolution.” The Modèle québécois of social collectivism is the target of these policies, specifically through education and health, hence the Charest government’s attempts to break the strike and destroy the student unions.

...

Austerity has impacted more than students in the province. Attacks have been launched broadly on the middle class and lower income families, their sense of social cohesion, and the social entitlement and equality of access to public services amid rising cost of living. The strikes register across these domains of everyday life, in the university, in the family home, the workplace, and the hospital, where increasingly the same growing resentment of the imposition of austerity measures in Quebec emerge, as the tuition increases coincide with the first ever “health tax,” alongside a 20% increase in hydro rates, the raising of the federal retirement age to 67, as well as mass layoffs.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/uprising/entry/13252/the_quebec_student_strike_celebrates_its_100th_day/





As one commentator put it: “While student issues are important, the Red Square has come to represent something much more than just disgruntled student demonstrators against tuition hikes. It has become another symbol – think the tent and the term Occupy – of a growing awareness that continuing the ‘business as usual’ model in Canada will not solve economic or social inequalities and we are, in fact, heading towards economic and social disaster.”

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/passion-in-quebec.html#.T8YLM7qHuLw.twitter
 

Bartdude

New member
Jul 5, 2006
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That National Post article is laughably simplistic and stupid.

The only thing that applies is SOME people benefited from inflation over the years, but a lot were also hurt by it and continue to suffer from it. Prices go up for people of all ages, not just students.

It's not the older generation who have to have the latest, greatest cell phones and highest usage plans.

It's not the older generation who demand the newest computers, PDA's, games, clothing, piercings, tattoos, make-up and assorted crap they don't really need, but want.

It's not the older generation who choose to buy everything NOW instead of saving for it when they can afford it.

It's not the older generation accepting the advertising thrust at them and accepting outrageous fees for service without question.

It's not the older generation buying over-priced property and going into debt forever WILLINGLY.

A little restraint and a lot more prudence would get students a lot more in the long run.

Have any of the students so disturbed by having to pay a higher portion of the education they are getting (which, incidentally most benefit them in the long run) ever thought of saving for their education?

So, because Quebec has had low tuition for previous generations there should never be an increase? Yeah, that applies to everything in the real world, doesn't it?

I'm fairly well-off now and I didn't do it by breaking windows and whining. I started a few businesses and sacrificed any extras to make them work. I slept in the office, never ate out, took fucking buses to meetings to save on parking, etc etc. I'm not alone, many others who make successes of themselves do the same.

The students haven't earned the right to say they've had enough.
And it was uphill both ways to school. Uh huh.

Speaking of simplistic....
 

Cock Throppled

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2003
4,946
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Upstairs
First - I thought you were finished with this thread, miss bijou? You spend so much time cutting and pasting articles I wonder how you have time to work.

It affects me because our transfer payments to Quebec keep going up - that's my tax money, too. You seem pretty worked up about Quebec students - I can ask the same thing - How does a $350 increase a year in tuition affect you?

Simplistic? Fucking right. Show me a student who knows how to budget, has dealt with banks and loans, managed a staff and payroll, and coped with provincial, federal and international regulations and doesn't whine about it and I might have more sympathy.

Once they get out of their cozy nests with mommy, daddy and university and face the real world they might have a right to bitch about how hard done they are.

Throwing tantrums, rioting, breaking windows, attacking businesses and police and intimidating other students and damaging the very economy that subsidizes them shows their level of responsibility.

I like a quote I heard - Students used to care about fixing the world - now they just care about themselves.
 
L

Larry Storch

Given some of the posts in this thread I may be way out of my league, but here goes. I honestly haven't been paying a lot of attention to this mainly because it doesn't really affect me and I live in B.C. I recently read in the May 29 edition of The Province that the tuition costs are increasing by $254 over 7 years. Is this correct? If so that works out to about $36.29 more per year.
Please tell me that I'm grossly mistaken and that the costs are more in the 'astronomical' range.
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,136
44
48
Montréal
First - I thought you were finished with this thread, miss bijou? You spend so much time cutting and pasting articles I wonder how you have time to work.







You know, you can just say nothing when you don't actually have anything of any value to say.

It may surprise you but cutting and pasting is shockingly quick to do. You're probably unaware that its reading the article that actually requires some time to do. Maybe you'll give it a try some day (reading, that is) and realize its time well spent. Its also quite useful for those of us who like to consider the bigger picture and how things inter-relate (is that even a real word?lol).

But I do understand there's no such need for people who think in terms of how they themselves are affected is really the only thing that does or should matter.






It affects me because our transfer payments to Quebec keep going up - that's my tax money, too. You seem pretty worked up about Quebec students - I can ask the same thing - How does a $350 increase a year in tuition affect you?
Lol are you serious? You do realize that the total amount the province is going to make is around 200 millions, right? Most of that comes from Quebec provincial taxes. Out of that leftover amount which you claim comes from transfers, how much do you think comes from you? A dime? A nickel, maybe?!

I'm embarrassed for you that you would actually spend so much time complaining because your big nickel, dime or even loonie supposedly gets "wasted on those lazy students" - according to you. (Whiners just complaining about small tuition hike, I'm losing a whole dime here! - is that the gist of your complaint? There, there, what a cruel, unfair world...how dare they?)

Of course, its all about you. Let us not forget that. Ever.






F
Simplistic? Fucking right. Show me a student who knows how to budget, has dealt with banks and loans, managed a staff and payroll, and coped with provincial, federal and international regulations and doesn't whine about it and I might have more sympathy.

Once they get out of their cozy nests with mommy, daddy and university and face the real world they might have a right to bitch about how hard done they are.
Not only is it simplistic, its self serving, deliberately clueless and full of small minded stereotypes about a group of people. Talk about ignorant. Simplistic is the least of the problems about this nonsense of yours. Do must really spend a lot of time staring at yourself in the mirror, telling yourself over and over just how above everyone you are. Do you write yourself love letters too?




F
Throwing tantrums, rioting, breaking windows, attacking businesses and police and intimidating other students and damaging the very economy that subsidizes them shows their level of responsibility.
Again, you're just deliberately saying stupid things: we've already been over this, what do the actions of what is probably less than 0.05% have to do with the other 99.95%. Thank God you're not on charge of anything that affects other human beings because I get the feeling you're actually unable to think of people or group of people in any other terms than in generalizations and stereotypical judgments. It's pretty lame to be so limited in ones understanding of the world one lives in.

It's only been explained like 5 Times already (at least) but obviously you have no desire to understand what the issue is about... Keep trolling. Ri-di-cu-lous. Reading comprehension clearly not your forte (or just reading - period?), you're wasting your time and mine, CT.






I like a quote I heard - Students used to care about fixing the world - now they just care about themselves.
Right. Coming from someone whose opinions are based solely on how it personally affects him and how people compare to him - that's quite ironic again.

Anyway, obviously you're just trolling and you have zero intention of understanding what this is all really about and you're just going to keep repeating the same clueless rant. Whatever works for you, CT - keep trolling. Hopefully not everyone who checked out the thread wasted their time and the opportunity to gain some insight into things that are happening elsewhere, to other people about whom they don't actually know very little. Of course, I'm sure there are a few who, like you, couldn't be bothered. (Kind of like the post right after yours)

















And finally - totally unrelated but I just came across this picture and thought it was hilarious
(it's Jean Charest, Quebec's PM btw).








Why hasn't anyone made one with Stephen Harper?
 

Cock Throppled

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2003
4,946
853
113
Upstairs
There are trolls and then there are trolls.

You jumped in with a long-winded, irrational post about the third page of this thread and seem to have missed the comments before that.

This is just one ridiculous section from your first post:

" I went to McGill in the late 80s and early 90s when tuition fees were less than $1,200 a year, so with summer jobs and some parental help I graduated from my first degree debt-free. For my MA, which I took in Ontario, I worked part-time and graduated after one year with a debt of $10,000.

By way of comparison: my partner went to university in Ontario after grants were eliminated, and when the first round of tuition fee hikes were implemented. He completed a BA and then an MA, and graduated with a debt load (and compound interest) requiring monthly payments of close to $650 for 10 years.

We know we benefited, and are benefiting from, our education. Both of us have found employment that allows us to make use of what we studied, and each of us paid back our loans. But that debt (particularly my partner’s), until it was fully repaid, impacted every major decision we made as a couple and then later as a family. And we still live with those decisions: when we bought a house, when we had kids, how many kids we could afford to have, the fact that we don’t own a car, how often we see our families who live out of town. (The other determining factor is the high cost of child care outside of Quebec.)"

Well, boo fucking hoo. Yo were sooo hard done by. My fucking god are you for real?

Are you so self-centred (that's a rhetorical question) you actually believe you suffered and were the only ones to have to make some financial and familial decisions based on your income and debt?

Wow, you actually had to budget and plan and make decisions based on how much money you earned and owed. Congratulations, that must have been almost impossible and horrible and life-threatening.

The rest of your whine shows how truly clueless you are about REAL sacrifice and want and need that so many people have to cope with. I can see exactly how you empathize with the Quebec students because you have exactly the same childish mind set.
 

DavidMR

New member
Mar 27, 2009
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Throwing tantrums, rioting, breaking windows, attacking businesses and police and intimidating other students and damaging the very economy that subsidizes them shows their level of responsibility.

I like a quote I heard - Students used to care about fixing the world - now they just care about themselves.


Arguing a case based on deliberately exaggerated caricatures and stereotypes is something that BC's hotline host brand of populism seems to encourage. It's not an admirable feature of West Coast life, but it's been around since the 1960s. As an example of how destructive that kind of thing can be, the progressive recommendations of the LeDain Royal Commission on the Non-Medical Use of Drugs were basically stillborn after Le Dain made a trip west to talk about his interim report and went onto the Webster show. Jack yelled and screamed at him for an hour or so, the Trudeau Cabinet heard the yelling three thousand miles away, and that was the end of the Le Dain report as a potential guide to policy.


Here is a link to an article in The Business Insider. Again, I hope none of the more sensitive types feel they are being mislead.


http://www.businessinsider.com/queb...&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=international

It's written by an Adam Taylor who is one of the BI staff.
 
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