HST - how are you planning to vote?
- Thread starter whoisjohngalt
- Start date
huggzy, quick responses to your posts. If you think the Feds won't demand the $1.6B back, you are living on a different reality than I am. You may think you are punishing the Liberals by voting yes but really you are punishing the people of BC.
The old system (GST/PST) costs way more to administer than the HST because there are two government agencies involved. With the HST, you only have one.
The old system (GST/PST) costs way more to administer than the HST because there are two government agencies involved. With the HST, you only have one.
This 1.6B was for the "transition" from PST to GST - and that transition has occurred. So sorry, but the federal government clearly supported the initial change with the BC govt - they bear a great deal of responsibility for shoving this onto the BC populace as do the BC liberals. I would think that there would be quite a legal battle over whether they even have a right to claim it back.
The whole concept that they could just simply claw all this money back is nothing but a scare tactic utilized by HST supporters.
If that's the only argument for supporting the HST, then I'm not a supporter of it.
Oh, ok. Let's pretend that there wouldn't be any political fallout if the HST was snuffed out.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If I promise you $16 to implement something and you renege on the deal, I would want the $16 back. It is not scare tactic, it is common business sense. Besides, all the Feds have to do is to withhold transfer payments for the same amount, not like you or I have a say in this matter.
Excerpt from the HSTinBC.ca website:
The Independent Panel on the HST reported on the implications of returning to the PST+GST on the provincial budget in its report released May 4, 2011.
The following summary of their findings has been updated to reflect the changes that will result in a 10 per cent HST by 2014:
* Returning to the PST+GST will take 18-24 months. That includes the time it will take to re-write federal-provincial tax laws and regulations and re-hiring 300 staff needed to administer the PST.
* Under the agreement with the federal government the Province will likely have to repay the $1.6 billion dollars in transitional funding it received from the Federal Government
* If the Province borrows the money needed to repay the $1.6 billion, it would cost $85 million in interest payment annually based on today’s interest rates.
* It will cost $15 million to $20 million in onetime costs to rebuild the provincial tax office.
* It will cost the government $35 million annually to administer the PST.
* If the HST stayed at 12 per cent it would raise about $852 million in 2013/2014 and $973 million in 2014/15 more than PST + GST.
* The Government will lower the HST by 2 points, to 10 per cent by 2014. As a result the HST will, after 2014, raise less revenue for government over short period of time than the higher 12 per cent PST + GST tax rate would have.
* Under both the PST + GST the government has committed to eliminating the deficit by 2014.
* If the referendum results in going back to PST + GST, the provincial budget would see a net revenue loss of $531 million in the first year and $645 million in the second year of returning to the PST + GST once all costs and savings are accounted for.
The following chart summarizes the short term budget implications of the HST and the PST+GST:
Return to PST + GST Retain HST
2011/12 $2,566 billion deficit $769 million deficit
2012/13 $543 million deficit $434 million deficit
2013/14 $356 million deficit $64 million deficit
2014/15 $405 million surplus $53 million surplus
The Independent Panel on the HST reported on the implications of returning to the PST+GST on the provincial budget in its report released May 4, 2011.
The following summary of their findings has been updated to reflect the changes that will result in a 10 per cent HST by 2014:
* Returning to the PST+GST will take 18-24 months. That includes the time it will take to re-write federal-provincial tax laws and regulations and re-hiring 300 staff needed to administer the PST.
* Under the agreement with the federal government the Province will likely have to repay the $1.6 billion dollars in transitional funding it received from the Federal Government
* If the Province borrows the money needed to repay the $1.6 billion, it would cost $85 million in interest payment annually based on today’s interest rates.
* It will cost $15 million to $20 million in onetime costs to rebuild the provincial tax office.
* It will cost the government $35 million annually to administer the PST.
* If the HST stayed at 12 per cent it would raise about $852 million in 2013/2014 and $973 million in 2014/15 more than PST + GST.
* The Government will lower the HST by 2 points, to 10 per cent by 2014. As a result the HST will, after 2014, raise less revenue for government over short period of time than the higher 12 per cent PST + GST tax rate would have.
* Under both the PST + GST the government has committed to eliminating the deficit by 2014.
* If the referendum results in going back to PST + GST, the provincial budget would see a net revenue loss of $531 million in the first year and $645 million in the second year of returning to the PST + GST once all costs and savings are accounted for.
The following chart summarizes the short term budget implications of the HST and the PST+GST:
Return to PST + GST Retain HST
2011/12 $2,566 billion deficit $769 million deficit
2012/13 $543 million deficit $434 million deficit
2013/14 $356 million deficit $64 million deficit
2014/15 $405 million surplus $53 million surplus
To those of you who are against the HST but can't seem to explain why other than your desire to punish the Liberals: Why don't you just man up and admit that you don't understand economics and finance well enough to evaluate the HST on its merits, and stop trying to cloak your lack of knowledge with mock outrage? Its OK, we won't think less of you. We can't all be experts about everything. Myself I'm not much with power tools.
The main reason the Liberals were against the HST was we lost control of our taxation - that still holds true.
It is very debatable if we would pay back any or all of the transition money -
A- not all of it has been paid.
B- There would be a good argument it did not have to be paid on the basis the transition occured, but the populace revolted. The provincial government carried out their part of the bargain.
C- Quebec - do you think if the HST referendum was happening in Quebec and it was extinguished they would ever pay transition funds back? The federal government needs BC more than we need them. Trying to squeeze money out of us would cost them dearly politically.
D- Financial wizards that they are, the BC Liberals could just argue they spent it on already on Gordo and David Hahn pension plans and Christy Clark's monthly teeth whitening.
It is very debatable if we would pay back any or all of the transition money -
A- not all of it has been paid.
B- There would be a good argument it did not have to be paid on the basis the transition occured, but the populace revolted. The provincial government carried out their part of the bargain.
C- Quebec - do you think if the HST referendum was happening in Quebec and it was extinguished they would ever pay transition funds back? The federal government needs BC more than we need them. Trying to squeeze money out of us would cost them dearly politically.
D- Financial wizards that they are, the BC Liberals could just argue they spent it on already on Gordo and David Hahn pension plans and Christy Clark's monthly teeth whitening.
You could argue this or that, all the Feds need to do is withhold transfer payments.
Oh...I understand the economics of this too.
In the most simple of terms, it is a reallocation of $2 billion in tax revenue from business to the consumer. Period.
And my outrage isn't anything but real.
There will most certainly be a bigger fight than that. And there will be a great deal of political capital at stake there too.
Wilde....you glossed over one key word there. That is the word "likely"...which does not mean certainly, does it? And whose opinion is it that it is "likely"?
We know where you stand on this issue...but try to refrain from misleading your audience when you do it.
So based on your logic, once the province implemented the HST, then it would never have the autonomy to make a change in this tax from this point forward???? I'd strongly suggest that your logic implies that the federal government is attempting to influence provincial politics far more than it has any right to do.
The HST was implemented - agreement fulfilled. And now there is a good chance that this tax will be changed because our governments forced something on us that the populace does not want.
I don't care if you want it, and I don't care if you take a position that "well...its in place, so now its best that you should just accept it". FUCK YOU. MESSAGE TO OUR GOVERNMENTS - DON'T EVER ATTEMPT TO SHOVE THIS MISLEADING BULLSHIT DOWN OUR THROATS OR ITS GOING TO GET SHOVED BACK UP YOUR ASS.
And what might that be? Sue the Feds and waste more money in legal fees? Threaten to leave the confederation? March to Ottawa?
You do realize they greatly need and prize seats from BC?
We hold a lot of power, not as much as Quebec, but maybe we should threaten to break away. Seems to work quite well for Quebec to extort what they want.
Because sitting back and just taking it up the ass quietly doesn't work in the real world.
People in power love it if they know their underlings won't bite back. I think liberties would be taken on us far less often if people just reared back and punched our leaders in the mouth every now and then when they step way out of line.
Think of it in terms of a hockey team and the use of enforcers...
If they lose this referendum this will stick with them all the way to the next election.
This is exactly why we have referendums...so that politicians can't just impose very unpopular policies and then hope four years down the road the electorate forgets. If the HST is defeated, the blame for all these wasted tax dollars are solely on the Liberal government, and NOT the people who voted against the HST in this referendum.
The Liberals never had a mandate to impose this. They ignored their electorate and now they will be punished for it.
