HST - how are you planning to vote?

[FunSugarDaddy]

I also find it interesting that the Canadian Tax Payer's Federation has also endorsed the HST over GST/PST. They're a non partisan advocacy group who's whole raison d'être is pushing for lower taxes. The fact that even they are saying that the HST is better than the GST/PST should make one take notice.

Obviously there are some who actually understand the underlying fundamentals between the HST over the GST/PST and others who simply hate the liberals and will vote to abolish the HST regardless of what the evidence/analysis shows.

That said, it's not an easy topic for the general public to understand, I happen to dispense financial advice for a living so one would expect people like me to be on top of this, but it's not something the general public can easily grasp.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

I have spent HOURS reading up on the issue, including attending a publc discussion on the matter. If you want to make an informed decision, put the time in as well, you lazy ass

You have proven my point once again Madam. By the way, I have spent the last 15 years studying and practicing in the fields of accounting, finance and taxation so I think I may have put in my time.

 

[Pirate Code]

The citizens did not want the HST, the Liberals promised they wouldn't switch over to it.....and yet they did.

I'm voting for Democracy, YES to axe the HST.

I have spent HOURS reading up on the issue, including attending a publc discussion on the matter. If you want to make an informed decision, put the time in as well, you lazy ass

For someone who's spent hours reading up on the issue, the first thing you say is you want to 'vote for democracy' and axe the HST because the liberals promised they wouldn't bring it in.

Your main reason is completely illogical.

Democracy can be frighteningly scary when the voters use their votes as vengeance instead of for the good of all.

The people who really want to get their vengeance should vote the liberals out of office in the next provincial election.

 

[uncleg]

And this is all you can mutter?

LOL the Master of the Understatement.:thumb:

Obviously there are some who actually understand the underlying fundamentals between the HST over the GST/PST and others who simply hate the liberals and will vote to abolish the HST regardless of what the evidence/analysis shows.

That said, it's not an easy topic for the general public to understand, I happen to dispense financial advice for a living so one would expect people like me to be on top of this, but it's not something the general public can easily grasp.

..and that may well be the problem, it is not easy to understand, which is why most people will probably vote based on something they can understand, their emotions.

I will be voting to get rid of it, mainly because up til now it has cost me nothing but money. I see no benefit for me in the future with this tax in place, even with the promised reductions. None of the payouts/benefits that are being promised will cover my loses. If it helps to get rid of the Liberal Gov't as well down the road, that's a bonus. Will some industries leave or reduce their footprint in B.C., maybe, but of those that have spoken out about doing so, none will not be missed by me. They put no money in my pocket, and in fact some like the movie industry have taken money out of my pocket, and that does not refer to the tax subsidy they get from the Gov't. I should point out I am in business, a business that is heavily regulated by the Government. Based on my experience with the utter stupidity displayed by the Political Hacks appointed by this government to regulate my industry, the arrogance of the various Ministers that we have had to deal with, plus the total incompetence of the Public Service employees that administer this whole mess and you have a voter that doesn't trust one word that comes out the mouths of any of these fools. At the end of the day, it probably doesn't really matter which party is in power, but I'll be damned if I'll support the fools that are doing everything they can to put me out of business.

 

[Pirate Code]

Though you make some great points, uncleg, I wonder if you or any of the other 'yes' voters have even begun to wonder what the implications are if the HST is abolished.
How do you think our government should make up for the decrease in tax revenue?

Which programs should get axed and how many schools should we close and how many beds should we shut down at the hospitals? How much should we increase income tax?

My guess is our income tax will have to go up substantially to make up the difference, along with cuts to programs. It would also be nice if the government would find ways to avoid duplication and excessive spending in HOW they administer taxation. OH WAIT! THAT'S WHAT THE HST DOES. oops!

Maybe these programs that are cut don't make a difference to you directly. Maybe you don't pay much income tax because you have a small business you run all your expenses through. Maybe you feel you pay enough and shouldn't have to pay more.

Our love of avoiding tax only makes the government find new ways to tax us.. and it is obvious they are doing that with the HST. I'm guessing that with so many people going independent with small business (paying a lot less income tax this way), I am guessing revenue from income tax actually has gone down unless the gov't continually increases the rates-- this does not look good at election time though does it! This makes sales generated taxes the only way to tax that small business money being made (and sheltered from income tax via business expenses). Don't forget our number one crop in BC generates several BILLION dollars is not getting taxed AT ALL.. unless the growers and dealers pay sales generated taxes when they spend their money. And though I know there are many ladies here who pay income taxes, I am also betting many do not disclose every penny they earn and many don't claim at all. How do these ladies pay taxes?... when they spend their money!

OK you 'Yes' people.. put on your thinking caps and tell us all how the gov't should be taxing us instead.

 

[wilde]

By the way, I have spent the last 15 years studying and practicing in the fields of accounting, finance and taxation so I think I may have put in my time.

Like you, I have spent the last 18 years trying to help clients comply with the PST legislation amongst other things and I think I am qualify to say that it is one of the most complicated, idiotic, unfair and draconian piece of legislation in the history of this province. I have on numerous occasion gotten different interpretations simply by talking to a different staff at the PST office. Even the most honest and tax compliant clients have not escaped from a PST audit without a scratch. The HST, aside from the transitional rules which are pretty complicated as well, will put an end to this.

 

[shockley]

Who said anythig about voting out of vengeance? My argument is: The large majority of people did not and still don't want the HST. Our ELECTED representatives listened to a few and not the whole when they went ahead and changed our tax system, this is not democracy. Although the old system has problems that need to be addressed, I do not support continuing with the HST.

Ingrid, I could care less about the HST. I just want to kiss you.

 

[blackcad]

For someone who's spent hours reading up on the issue, the first thing you say is you want to 'vote for democracy' and axe the HST because the liberals promised they wouldn't bring it in.

Your main reason is completely illogical.

Hmmm....democracy is a form of government kept in check by democratic process. What is "democratic"? ....

1. of, characterized by, derived from, or relating to the principles of democracy
2. upholding or favouring democracy or the interests of the common people
3. popular with or for the benefit of all

Pirate Code, your statement claiming Ingrid's main reason is completely illogical, is unfounded and completely illogical itself. Ingrid is absolutely spot-on; the constituents did not want the HST, and overwhelmingly so it was represented in all polls taken. The Liberals came to power with a platform stating that a Harmonized Sales Tax was not on the agenda, and then forced it on the populace against resounding opposition once elected.

Democracy can be frighteningly scary when the voters use their votes as vengeance instead of for the good of all.

Democracy is scary because of vengeance? I suppose we should just take it in the rear and forget this "little" tiny thing called the HST. This is an unprecedented opportunity to exercise democracy. If the HST is scrapped, the Liberals will almost certainly lose the next election, possibly even disappear off the political map. If the HST prevails, good luck trying to vote them out, it is very unlikely to occur, and this government will believe that it can force anything on the citizens of our province.

The people who really want to get their vengeance should vote the liberals out of office in the next provincial election.

No, those people should vote yes to extinguish the HST, thereby ensuring the fecundity of the democratic process. The HST is an absolute taxation whore. I'm now getting screwed by this tax on so many levels, and this type of screwing is not the pleasurable variety.

To those who make unverifiable affirmations about their credentials and experience, do you believe you have any more valid a vote than someone else... you, in fact, do not. THAT IS THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

I am not the dullest tack in the box by any means, but on BOTH principle and my own tax burden, I will exercise my right to assist in scrapping this tax. You have every right to believe all the propoganda and damage control of the Liberal party, and any random youtube video purporting the HST's merits, I myself, am not fooled so easily.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Who said anythig about voting out of vengeance? My argument is: The large majority of people did not and still don't want the HST. Our ELECTED representatives listened to a few and not the whole when they went ahead and changed our tax system, this is not democracy. Although the old system has problems that need to be addressed, I do not support continuing with the HST.

But is it not the job of elected officials from time to time to make difficult decisions that they know are unpopular but are in the best interests of society as a whole? The problem with public opinion is that it is largely uninformed, especially when it comes to complex economic and financial issues and is usually based on parochialism, i.e. whats in it for me rather than what is fair and serves the greater good. The HST is a classic example of this.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Like you, I have spent the last 18 years trying to help clients comply with the PST legislation amongst other things and I think I am qualify to say that it is one of the most complicated, idiotic, unfair and draconian piece of legislation in the history of this province. I have on numerous occasion gotten different interpretations simply by talking to a different staff at the PST office. Even the most honest and tax compliant clients have not escaped from a PST audit without a scratch. The HST, aside from the transitional rules which are pretty complicated as well, will put an end to this.

I have often marveled at the convoluted nature of the PST system. It is almost as if the drafters set out to create the most complicated, arbitrary, and inconsistent tax rules. The other day on the radio I heard a tax lawyer who specializes in PST matters arguing for its abolition even though he would personally lose business as a result.

I remember when I first started working as a bookkeeper thinking to myself, why don't they harmonize with GST just like Atlantic Canada, and even at that early stage of my professional development recognizing the harmfulness of the PST.

 

[luvdaladeez]

It is sad, however, as much as i can clearly SEE the HST being the correct move for us...voting this in undoubtedly sends a favorable message to that drunken scumbag that he did the right thing. The image of his smug smile sitting in his new post in England is enough to make a rational and educated person vote against this. Spite, anger,,,,yes. Needless to say, he has already had the last laugh. I'm sure the conversation went something like ...Harper- "Listen Campbell, you get this HST through, and we'll take care of you". and the small 'c' Liberal goof did what he always does....what's best for him..i think it's only coincidence the HST is actually also best for B.C. my .02

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Hmmm....democracy is a form of government kept in check by democratic process. What is "democratic"? ....

1. of, characterized by, derived from, or relating to the principles of democracy
2. upholding or favouring democracy or the interests of the common people
3. popular with or for the benefit of all

Pirate Code, your statement claiming Ingrid's main reason is completely illogical, is unfounded and completely illogical itself. Ingrid is absolutely spot-on; the constituents did not want the HST, and overwhelmingly so it was represented in all polls taken. The Liberals came to power with a platform stating that a Harmonized Sales Tax was not on the agenda, and then forced it on the populace against resounding opposition once elected.



Democracy is scary because of vengeance? I suppose we should just take it in the rear and forget this "little" tiny thing called the HST. This is an unprecedented opportunity to exercise democracy. If the HST is scrapped, the Liberals will almost certainly lose the next election, possibly even disappear off the political map. If the HST prevails, good luck trying to vote them out, it is very unlikely to occur, and this government will believe that it can force anything on the citizens of our province.



No, those people should vote yes to extinguish the HST, thereby ensuring the fecundity of the democratic process. The HST is an absolute taxation whore. I'm now getting screwed by this tax on so many levels, and this type of screwing is not the pleasurable variety.

To those who make unverifiable affirmations about their credentials and experience, do you believe you have any more valid a vote than someone else... you, in fact, do not. THAT IS THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

I am not the dullest tack in the box by any means, but on BOTH principle and my own tax burden, I will exercise my right to assist in scrapping this tax. You have every right to believe all the propoganda and damage control of the Liberal party, and any random youtube video purporting the HST's merits, I myself, am not fooled so easily.

So we in favour of the HST are Liberal sheep who have been taken in by propaganda, while you Mr Blackad have this special gift of perception that allows you to see through it. What makes you so smart? Lets hear your credentials.

 

[wilde]

I think this referendum might be better with a note to the question. Something to the effect of: BTW, if you vote No, it does not mean that you agree with how the government of the day push the HST in through the back door or something to that effect.

 

[Pirate Code]

I think this referendum might be better with a note to the question. Something to the effect of: BTW, if you vote No, it does not mean that you agree with how the government of the day push the HST in through the back door or something to that effect.

Thanks for that. I did not vote Liberal in the last election and I'm 100% positive that they will not be voted in again, whether or not the HST is abolished.
"Sending them a message" will not change anything.


Thing is, if the idiots had not made stupid promises and had introduced the tax in a manner that made sense to a reasonable person, we would have accepted it.



Again, I ask the Yes voters. How do you suggest that the government tax us? Since you don't want to pay more taxes, are you willing to receive fewer services, poorer education and healthcare?

This IS a democracy.. so what do the average Canadians want?

How about a country like the USA? Lets say fuck you to our healthcare system and reduce our taxes a whole lot! Why not get rid of all welfare programs, what the hell!
Its easy for us to say fuck you to everyone around you until you're the one who needs help you can't afford on your own. All I know is I would likely be dead by now if it wasn't for the system of safety nets and healthcare we have in Canada, so I am happy to pay taxes here. The alternatives are things you may not have considered.

Would you rather live in a country that has poor to no welfare systems and you have to live behind an 8 foot concrete wall, topped with barbed wire.. with a shot gun in every corner of your house? Will you be ready if someone jumps over the wall to shoot him because he is coming to kill you for whatever he can steal in your home? I know people who had to live like that in South Africa. They moved HERE for a reason. We have the life we have because we have systems in place that support our society.

When you diminish those systems, things can deteriorate to anarchy. Look at Greece right now. They are in this trouble because so many citizens avoid taxes, yet the gov't continued to provide programs.

 

[blackcad]

So we in favour of the HST are Liberal sheep who have been taken in by propaganda, while you Mr Blackad have this special gift of perception that allows you to see through it. What makes you so smart? Lets hear your credentials.

There will always be propaganda, to some degree, in "politician speak". It is our job, if we wish, to sift through the BS and reveal the truth. You, whoisjohngalt, can come to any conclusion you like, as can I. As far as "what makes me so smart? I have a particular aversion for people self-appointing and purporting themselves as experts on anonymous forums such as this. I can make inferences on an individual's intelligence from their writing style and argument construction, and then come to my own conclusion. Myself? ...For all you know, you might come to the conclusion that I may be a mentally challenged and unemployed person, lacking almost any education in any field, with the thought capacity of your average 11 year old. Touting my credentials, if I do indeed have them, on a review board such as this would only serve to diminish them.

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

I have often marveled at the convoluted nature of the PST system. It is almost as if the drafters set out to create the most complicated, arbitrary, and inconsistent tax rules. The other day on the radio I heard a tax lawyer who specializes in PST matters arguing for its abolition even though he would personally lose business as a result.

I remember when I first started working as a bookkeeper thinking to myself, why don't they harmonize with GST just like Atlantic Canada, and even at that early stage of my professional development recognizing the harmfulness of the PST.

This sums up the PST nicely and actually raises other interesting issue, which is why was the PST so screwed up to begin with and why can't they simplify it?

I'm sure this is going to be discussed a fair amount if the government losses the HST vote.

 

[Pirate Code]

Happy Canada Day!!

 

[wilde]

Just a quick example to show you the seemingly random and confusing aspects of the PST. The following applies to optical retailers.

Taxable items:

* Accessories, optical - sold or charged separately from prescription optical goods
* Cases - sold or charged separately from prescription optical goods
* Chains - sold or charged separately from prescription optical goods
* Cleaning solutions - for lenses and frames
* Clip-on sunglasses - sold or charged separately from prescription glasses
* Contact lens preparations or solutions
* Contact lenses, non-prescription
* Eye drops - for lubricating or re-wetting contact lenses
* Frames - sold or charged separately from prescription optical goods
* Lens wipes
* Reading glasses, non-prescription
* Re-wetting drops - for lubricating and rewetting soft contact lenses
* Sunglasses, non-prescription

Non-taxable items:

* Anaesthetics
* Accessories, optical (e.g. chains or cases) - sold with prescription optical goods for a single price
* Cases - sold with prescription optical goods for a single price
* Chains - sold with prescription optical goods for a single price
* Clip-on sunglasses - sold with prescription glasses for a single price
* Contact lenses and sample disposable contact lenses, prescription
* Drugs and medicines, prescription
* Eye drops (e.g. Murine or Visine) - made for treating, relieving or preventing an eye disease or ailment
* Eye pads, preparations
* Frames - sold with prescription glasses/lenses
* Glasses, prescription
* Lenses, prescription
* Punctal plugs, permanent
* Repairs - to prescription optical goods

Confused? Bear in mind they have many lists like these, imagine the amount of effort required just to set up your cash register. Imagine going to buy a pair of prescription glasses but you forgot to buy the case. You go back a day later to buy the case, now you have to pay PST whereas there would have been no PST had you bought it with the glasses although that only applies if the case is sold with the glasses for a single price.

Prescription contact lenses are non-taxable but the eye drops to lubricate them are. Is that fair? You can create numerous combination that makes no sense just from those lists.

Another example I gave earlier regarding school supplies - namely bags. From the PST legislation: "Bags specifically designed to carry school books and supplies (does not include briefcases, attaché cases, roll bags, backpacks, sport bags or tote bags)" are non-taxable but they don't tell you what bags qualifies.

Some of you may remember going to a store to buy clothing for children and have to fill out a bunch of information to not pay PST. Well here is the relevant piece of legislation: "Clothing and footwear for children under the age of 15 years. See Bulletin SST 009, Children's Clothing". What we end up with however is people pretending to buy clothes for children under 15 and people saying that their kid(s) are growing so fast they have to wear adult clothing while trying to maintain a straight face.

 

[bcneil]

I did some quick personal calculations.

I will pay approx $1700-$1900 more this year.
The Majority ($1400 of it) on my Canuck tickets.
Even if they reduced it to 11 then 10 percent way down the line, I will still be paying way more.
As I dont qualify from any of the bribes offered. Only person in my family that will get that $175 or whatever, is my unemployed sister, who lives with my parents. I will be voting to axe the tax.

Remember if you own a car.....its worth less if you ever plan on selling private.
A buyer would only have to pay pst, now hst. So you would need to sell your car at a greater discount to a car dealer to attract buyers.

 

[wilde]

To those who are voting to axe the HST because you are paying more, you have a very valid reason. I don't have a crystal ball but I'm willing to bet that once the dust settles (back to GST/PST) you will be paying the same or more under the HST as there will be major changes to the PST to make up the shortfall. Or failing that, major spending cuts or other forms of tax hikes.