HST - how are you planning to vote?

[Pirate Code]

Please enlighten us as to why the PST is a better tax than the HST.

I'd also like to know how she come up with the conclusion that the current HST provinces are doing worse because of this tax. There are so many variables as to why those provinces are not doing as well. Examples are that the maritime provinces have always done poorly due to the seasonal nature of so much of the work there, or that Ontario has done poorly because all the losses of jobs due to the auto industry.

You could also look at the fact that BC appears to be doing well because of our real estate values. We haven't been hit by the recession like the other provinces have.. and that has nothing AT ALL to do with the pst/gst.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

I've got a degree in both business and economics and I too would like to see this explanation.

I'd also like to know how she come up with the conclusion that the current HST provinces are doing worse because of this tax. There are so many variables as to why those provinces are not doing as well. Examples are that the maritime provinces have always done poorly due to the seasonal nature of so much of the work there, or that Ontario has done poorly because all the losses of jobs due to the auto industry.

You could also look at the fact that BC appears to be doing well because of our real estate values. We haven't been hit by the recession like the other provinces have.. and that has nothing AT ALL to do with the pst/gst.

Since I started this thread over a month ago, there have been many comments on both sides, but those who are against the HST have yet to offer up any cogent arguments to support their position. If they say anything at all, it is either that they are using the referendum to send a message to the liberals, which is misguided to the extreme, or they feel that they are personally worse off under the HST, which according to the statistics puts them in a small minority of British Columbians when you factor in the expanded HST rebate program.

On the other hand, those who are in favour of the HST (wilde, aznboi9 and others) have provided well reasoned theoretical arguments, and also empirical support for the HST.

To those who are still against the HST: this is not a question of whether you like Gordon Campbell or the Liberals. It is not a question of whether you like paying taxes (of course nobody does). It is not a question of whether the HST is revenue neutral - this is a red herring since the rates can always be adjusted up or down as needed, no different from all other taxes. It is a question of sound public policy, of implementing a taxation system that provides government with the necessary revenue to function, while minimizing harm to the economy. On this score, there is no reasonable argument out there that the PST is superior to the HST.

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

Since I started this thread over a month ago, there have been many comments on both sides, but those who are against the HST have yet to offer up any cogent arguments to support their position. If they say anything at all, it is either that they are using the referendum to send a message to the liberals, which is misguided to the extreme, or they feel that they are personally worse off under the HST, which according to the statistics puts them in a small minority of British Columbians when you factor in the expanded HST rebate program.

On the other hand, those who are in favour of the HST (wilde, aznboi9 and others) have provided well reasoned theoretical arguments, and also empirical support for the HST.

To those who are still against the HST: this is not a question of whether you like Gordon Campbell or the Liberals. It is not a question of whether you like paying taxes (of course nobody does). It is not a question of whether the HST is revenue neutral - this is a red herring since the rates can always be adjusted up or down as needed, no different from all other taxes. It is a question of sound public policy, of implementing a taxation system that provides government with the necessary revenue to function, while minimizing harm to the economy. On this score, there is no reasonable argument out there that the PST is superior to the HST.

That really is the bottom line. When all else fails why not listen to the tax experts who are hired to provide this type of analysis and often teach accounting, or economics at universities?

And there is no way having two levels of government, with two levels of bureaucracy to collect what is essentially the same or close to the same amount of tax makes any rational sense. Add to that that the whole business community has been forced to change their bookkeeping so they can track the HST rather then both the PST/GST and it's just a headache most business owners, who hate collecting taxes to begin with, would sooner avoid. And guess what, their accounting costs for these changes will increase, their tills will have to be adjusted, yet again, they have to worry about the potential of two sales tax audits reather than one, and on and on it goes.

As I mentioned earlier, if the Liberals would have introduced this tax at 10% to begin with, which they should have done since they claimed it was revenue neutral, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

That really is the bottom line. When all else fails why not listen to the tax experts who are hired to provide this type of analysis and often teach accounting, or economics at universities?

And there is no way having two levels of government, with two levels of bureaucracy to collect what is essentially the same or close to the same amount of tax makes any rational sense. Add to that that the whole business community has been forced to change their bookkeeping so they can track the HST rather then both the PST/GST and it's just a headache most business owners, who hate collecting taxes to begin with, would sooner avoid. And guess what, their accounting costs for these changes will increase, their tills will have to be adjusted, yet again, they have to worry about the potential of two sales tax audits reather than one, and on and on it goes.

As I mentioned earlier, if the Liberals would have introduced this tax at 10% to begin with, which they should have done since they claimed it was revenue neutral, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

There is no doubt that the Liberals completely botched the introduction of this tax on so many levels. But I shudder to think what this whole exercise says about democracy and public policy in general. According to the polls, the vote is going to be close and there is a good chance that the HST will be defeated. If the public gets it wrong on such a clear cut matter as this, what hope is there that other more subtle and difficult public policy issues will be dealt with intelligently? And we have a number of such issues on the horizon, such as pensions, health care costs, aging population etc. I think we may have some very dark days ahead.

 

[wilde]

Some example of the complexity and some may say random and unfair aspects of the PST:



"Under the old Provincial Sales Tax, things were a lot more complicated. It was not evenly or fairly applied to goods and services. It wasn’t even logical. Consider that PST was payable on unicycles but not on bicycles, on car battery recharging but not on car battery boosting, and on flower bulbs but not onion bulbs. It was extremely confusing, even for tax professionals.

Worse, the PST was applied to goods that businesses built or made, which meant that an additional 7 per cent was added to the price even though the product may have been “tax-free” at the final point of sale. Of course, it wasn’t, it was just “tax hidden.”


More examples:

For instance, garden soil mixes that contained 50 per cent or more of sand, gravel, topsoil or fill were taxable. Garden mixes that contained more than 50 per cent of a combination of manure, peat, sawdust or any other chemicals or organic soil stimulants were PST exempt. A biology class frog was not taxable but the rules governing a class hamster were unclear. Animals sold as pets were taxable, though animals, dead or alive, purchased by schools or school boards for student research projects were non-taxable.

One did not have to look hard to find rules that made very little sense. Bags specifically designed to carry school books and supplies were PST exempt. But, according to the list of taxable items, briefcases, attaché cases, roll bags, backpacks, sport bags and tote bags were not specifically designed to carry school books and supplies."

 

[Cock Throppled]

I would point out the Liberals were in power for ten years and had all that time to investigate, determine rate and efficiency and properly implement an HST.
Over that time they consistently said an HST would be a bad tax and they had no intention of bringing it in.
Carole Taylor, arguably the best finance minister in a long time even declared she would never impose such a tax.

It remained a bad tax until it was rushed in only when the Federal government offered a cash bribe with our own money after the Liberals broke their own Balanced Budget law. Now, in order to sell this "bad tax" the provincial government is offering a PROMISED future reduced rate and rebate cheques - essentially buying us off again with our own money.

It is a fiasco of unprecedented incompetence.

I say vote it down, go back to "Go" and figure out a proper way of implementing tax policy, type and rate. Let the ones who screwed it up figure out how to fix it.

 

[wilde]

I would point out the Liberals were in power for ten years and had all that time to investigate, determine rate and efficiency and properly implement an HST.
Over that time they consistently said an HST would be a bad tax and they had no intention of bringing it in.
Carole Taylor, arguably the best finance minister in a long time even declared she would never impose such a tax.

It remained a bad tax until it was rushed in only when the Federal government offered a cash bribe with our own money after the Liberals broke their own Balanced Budget law. Now, in order to sell this "bad tax" the provincial government is offering a PROMISED future reduced rate and rebate cheques - essentially buying us off again with our own money.

It is a fiasco of unprecedented incompetence.

I say vote it down, go back to "Go" and figure out a proper way of implementing tax policy, type and rate. Let the ones who screwed it up figure out how to fix it.

Are you in the recycling business?

 

[Cock Throppled]

For anyone not paying attention - The following is a list of everything that costs more under the HST. I welcome the pro HST people to post the list of things under the HST for which we pay less.
-----------
These cost us all more under the HST:

• Admission to Professional Sporting Events (e.g., Hockey, Football and Soccer Games)
• Movie Tickets
• Golf Memberships
• Driving Range Fees
• Gym and Athletic Memberships
• Ballet, Karate, Trampoline, Hockey, Soccer Lessons etc.
• Tickets for Live Theatre
• Admission to Museums and Art Galleries
• Music Concerts
• Ski Lift Passes
• Camping Sites
• Domestic Air, Rail and Bus Travel Originating in British Columbia
• Lease of Alternative Fuel Vehicle and Fuel Efficient Vehicle
• Purchase of an Alternative Fuel Vehicle *and Fuel Efficient Vehicle
• Motor Vehicle Parking
Snack Foods (e.g., Chips and Pop)
• Restaurant Meals
•
• Massage Therapy Services
• Over-the-Counter Medications
• Vitamins
• Newspapers
• Certain School Supplies
• Magazines
• EnergyStar Windows
• Thermal Insulation, Weather Stripping and Caulking
• First Aid Kits
• Smoke Detectors Valued Less Than $250 for Residential Use
• Food Producing Plants and Trees (e.g., Tomato Plants, Plum Tree)
• Household Moving Services
• Safety Helmets for Sports (e.g., Hockey Helmets, Snowboard Helmets, Bike Helmets)
• Bicycles
• Adult Sized Ski Gloves for Children
• Adult Sized Ski Boots for Children
• Children’s Sized Ski Boots
• Adult Sized Clothing for Children
• Shoe Repair
• Tailoring Services
• Used Adult Clothing Purchased for Less Than $100
• Taxis
• Domestic Air, Rail, and Bus Travel Originating in B.C.
• Camping Sites
• • Basic Cable Television
• Local Residential Phone
• Repair to Certain Household Appliances (e.g., Stoves, Ovens, Refrigerators, Washers, and Dryers)
• Repair, Maintenance or Renovation Services for Real Property (e.g., Plumbing Electrical Wiring)
• Landscaping, Lawn-Care, Private Snow Removal and House Cleaning
• Computer Software Repair Services (e.g., virus removal or software installation)
• Funeral Services
• Fitness Trainer
• Hair Stylist/Barber
• Esthetician Services (e.g., Manicures, Pedicures, Facials)
• Accounting Services
• Interior Design Services
• Wedding Planning Services
• Veterinarian Services
• Dry Cleaning
• Catering and Event Planning Services (e.g., planning, consulting, coordinating and organizing)
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The same government that exempted gasoline, but charges an eco fee also charges HST on bikes and safety equipment and alternative-fuelled cars. There is no more logic to the HST than the PST/GST.

 

[wilde]

The Positive Impact of the HST

§ At 10 per cent, the HST will be two points lower than the 12 per cent PST-GST

§ The average B.C. family will now pay $120 less per year than they did under the PST-GST

§ In addition to low-income families receiving up to $230 per person in HST credits, children and seniors will receive annual transition cheques of $175 until the 10 per cent HST rate takes effect

§ 83 per cent of small businesses support a 10 per cent HST, according to the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses

§ The HST is an efficient consumption tax with no loopholes, exemptions for special interest groups or deductions

§ The HST taxes the growing part of our economy services thereby providing $800m additional revenues British Columbia needs for health care and education by 2014

§ The HST removes tax duplication throughout the value chain eliminating the costly compounding effect of PST which was applied at every level from raw materials right through to the retail level.

 

[niteowl]

They say they will lower the HST by 2 points by 2013 in the mean time they may introduce a second carbon tax. Also what is costs now with the HST and then gets reduced in 2 years? It will take about 9 years to get it back at 10%.

 

[wilde]

For anyone not paying attention - The following is a list of everything that costs more under the HST. I welcome the pro HST people to post the list of things under the HST for which we pay less.

And we welcome you to tell us why the HST is a bad tax and the GST/PST good?

 

[Cock Throppled]

They say they will lower the HST by 2 points by 2013 in the mean time they may introduce a second carbon tax. Also what is costs now with the HST and then gets reduced in 2 years? It will take about 9 years to get it back at 10%.

Actually, they promise to lower the HST 2 points by 2014 - 3 years from now. The next carbon tax goes up Friday 1.1¢ per litre of gasoline. That now means we're paying 5.56¢ perlitre in gas tax - which is exempt from HST, if that makes any sense.

 

[wilde]

"At the request of the Province, the federal government changed the law governing the B.C. HST to lower the B.C. portion of the HST to six per cent on July 1, 2012, and to five per cent on July 1, 2014, subject to a “No” vote in the HST referendum."

 

[Cock Throppled]

The Positive Impact of the HST

§ At 10 per cent, the HST will be two points lower than the 12 per cent PST-GST

it's not 10% - it's 12% and has been for the past year and will be for another year, etc etc.

§ The average B.C. family will now pay $120 less per year than they did under the PST-GST

Plenty of evidence to say that number is nothing but wishful thinking. See the above list of everything that costs more.

§ In addition to low-income families receiving up to $230 per person in HST credits, children and seniors will receive annual transition cheques of $175 until the 10 per cent HST rate takes effect

That was instituted ONLY when they thought they would lose the referendum. It will cost so much the revenue will have to be brought in from more taxes elsewhere.

§ 83 per cent of small businesses support a 10 per cent HST, according to the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses

I'm not one of them.

§ The HST is an efficient consumption tax with no loopholes, exemptions for special interest groups or deductions

Doesn't need loopholes - the built-in system has made things like sales of high end cars lower. It just means we all pay more for more services and goods.

§ The HST taxes the growing part of our economy services thereby providing $800m additional revenues British Columbia needs for health care and education by 2014

You are kidding, right? The government has forgone so much in tax revenue from big businesses over the last 20 years it has had to shift the burden on to consumers and average families. There would be plenty of money for health care and education without the need for a tax shift if the system was more fair.

§ The HST removes tax duplication throughout the value chain eliminating the costly compounding effect of PST which was applied at every level from raw materials right through to the retail level.

Thereby costing businesses less and lowering prices - oh, wait - that never happened.

 

[wilde]

it's not 10% - it's 12% and has been for the past year and will be for another year, etc etc.

By July 2012, it will be 11%. By July 2014, It will be 10%

Plenty of evidence to say that number is nothing but wishful thinking. See the above list of everything that costs more.

If you don't want to pay more comsumption tax, answe is simple, spend less.

That was instituted ONLY when they thought they would lose the referendum. It will cost so much the revenue will have to be brought in from more taxes elsewhere.

Yeah, the same thing will happen if the HST is defeated.

I'm not one of them.

Pretty evident, don't you think

Doesn't need loopholes - the built-in system has made things like sales of high end cars lower. It just means we all pay more for more services and goods.

Are you sure you understand the PST system?

You are kidding, right? The government has forgone so much in tax revenue from big businesses over the last 20 years it has had to shift the burden on to consumers and average families. There would be plenty of money for health care and education without the need for a tax shift if the system was more fair.

Most of the developed world have shifted their tax burden in this direction.

Thereby costing businesses less and lowering prices - oh, wait - that never happened.

The HST is not even a year old. It takes time for the savings to trickle down the supply chain. Other factors such as inflation can distort the picture.

 

[GoWest]

The govt. needs money to run. Do the PST proponents honestly think that by going back to the PST the govt. will need or want less money? I doubt it. I'm pretty sure that they will try to collect the same tax dollars they think that they need or want in either PST/GST or HST. At least with the HST we don't waste more money and also pay for 2 levels of tax collectors.

Tax burden shift? Well, the PST was not recoverable to businesses and any business that doesn't make a profit won't be around too long. The prices charged to consumers will cover the cost of the PST, so in the long run, even in the PST/GST tax system the consumer ended up paying the tax.

CT's list of exemptions? The provincial govt. chooses what to exempt in either the PST/GST or HST systems. For HST, they chose not to exempt those products in the list. If we go back to the PST, you don't think that they will make up any shortfall in taxes by raising taxes somewhere or changing that list of PST exempted items? Of course they will. For those Liberal haters who cannot separate the tax system from the political party, I'll even say they'll do it just to spite you. (Instead of lobbying for a less efficient tax system, perhaps the proponents of the PST should be lobbying for the same exemptions in the HST. That makes more sense to me.)

Further, check out that list. Most of the first few items are totally discretionary and are likely to be purchased by those with higher incomes. Why should they be exempt? Isn't it fair to say - you buy, you pay - no loopholes, no exceptions. For those "non-discretionary" types of items, well, those low income tax credits offset the increased amount that the disadvantaged might pay in HST versus PST/GST. In any case, if the govt. exempts certain items, you know that they will make up any shortfall by increasing the rates on the other taxable items. The consumer will end up paying no matter what. (Heck, why are we even arguing about this. If you are on this board, you can probably afford to poon, and if you can also afford to go to a restaurant, you can probably afford to pay the increased tax on your restaurant bill.)

Nope, I can't see any advantage to the PST, just lots of inefficiencies.

 

[Pirate Code]

Am listening right now to the town meeting via conference call..

BC will have to pay back 1.6 billion in transfer payments along with losing another 1.4 billion in revenue. This means we are out 3 billion dollars.

The provincial budget is 25 billion. That means we are out more than 10% of the budget.

Seriously.. do you think this won't hurt? It's okay to WASTE 3 billion dollars to spite the Liberals?

btw the estimated loss in the film industry is 20%.. we will lose a lot of jobs to Ontario.. because they have the HST.

 

[Cock Throppled]

Am listening right now to the town meeting via conference call..

BC will have to pay back 1.6 billion in transfer payments along with losing another 1.4 billion in revenue. This means we are out 3 billion dollars.

The provincial budget is 25 billion. That means we are out more than 10% of the budget.

Seriously.. do you think this won't hurt? It's okay to WASTE 3 billion dollars to spite the Liberals?

btw the estimated loss in the film industry is 20%.. we will lose a lot of jobs to Ontario.. because they have the HST.

And those numbers are courtesy of who?

Absolute, total, complete, unbridled BULL SHIT scare tactics by a desperate government that created the problem and now can't figure a way out of it.

 

[aznboi9]

And those numbers are courtesy of who?

Absolute, total, complete, unbridled BULL SHIT scare tactics by a desperate government that created the problem and now can't figure a way out of it.

I don't think the Motion Picture Production Industry Association of BC is a branch of the government.

http://www.vancourier.com/entertainment/movie-guide/Film+industry+lobbying+hard+keep/4886908/story.html

These days, instead of talking about what feature movies are scheduled to film here, the Motion Picture Production Industry Association of BC (MPPIA) is leading a lobby to keep the HST, and estimates that as many as 20 per cent of jobs in the film industry will be lost if the HST is repealed.

With a high dollar, business becomes more marginal, which makes the HST so critical for us--it represents a seven per cent savings," says Peter Leitch, chair of MPPIA and president of North Shore Studios and Mammoth Studios. "The HST has helped to level the playing field in Canada's nationwide motion picture industry and its loss will put B.C.'s industry at a significant disadvantage to our competitors."

I also find it interesting that the Canadian Tax Payer's Federation has also endorsed the HST over GST/PST. They're a non partisan advocacy group who's whole raison d'être is pushing for lower taxes. The fact that even they are saying that the HST is better than the GST/PST should make one take notice.

 

[wilde]

I have spent HOURS reading up on the issue, including attending a publc discussion on the matter. If you want to make an informed decision, put the time in as well, you lazy ass

And this is all you can mutter?

I prefer the old pst/gst sysytem and don't believe claims the HST system will be better for me or our province.

The provinces that have previously adopted the HST system are doing WORSE not better compared to the other provinces.