Current Israeli/Lebanese conflict
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Justing Weasel-izing them?sdw said:
And these 50 caliber and 25mm guns are mounted where? In lieu of the 20mm rotary cannon?sdw said:
Indeed, the USAF was impressed with the performance of the F-4 as was the USMC. All three branches used the F-4.sdw said:
The whole time you served in the navy there were F-16's on the carrier? You sure about that?sdw said:
Other than the helicopters all of the other aircraft on a carrier needs to be catapulted.sdw said:
The so-called weenie in the USAF isn't landing on a carrier deck looking to hook onto one of the arrester cables.sdw said:
Anyhow to way off topic, there was time that in joint exercises between the then RCN and the USN, the latter's pilots flying Trackers or Banshees were very reluctant to land on the Bonaventure. They thought RCN pilots were nuts to land on what the USN considered too small of a carrier.
Especially for those Muslims in souther Lebanon who have long felt they have been getting the short end of the stick in Lebanese society. I would say the loyalty the Lebanese supporters of Hezbollah have for that organization is much the same kind of loyalty a person has for one's country. If the Israelis can evnetually talk with the PLO (although the agreements so far have failed thanks to both sides) then the Israelis can talk with Hezbollah.Tyrone785 said:
Yes, they were mostly used at the Top Gun school. The F16N Viper was used from 1980 to 1991. They suffered from fatigue cracks in the wings and were retired from service. Here is a picture http://www.airshowfan.com/winecountryindex.htmldirtydan said:
Scroll to the bottom of the first page
I don't like to call Bullshit but... Your link indicates that these aircraft were used for Top Gun which was entirely land based up until the point Miramar became a USMC Air Station. Since the course moved to NAS Fallon I can't comment on whether they do any carrier work or not. If you look up information on the United States Navy Fighter Weapons School (AKA Top Gun) you will find that the F-16's, which they still use, are for DACT (Disimilar Aircraft Combat Training) and not operationally deployed on carriers. The US Navy also has Hercs but only one has ever landed on carrier. There were 80 P-3's at Nas Jacksonville alone in the mid-90's, just because the navy operates a particular airframe doesn't make it carrier based.
You'll find that the F16s that the Top Gun school currently uses are F16Bs. The N version suffered from fatigue cracks in the wings and were all retired.Hondius said:
I think the last carrier use was probably ended when the F18 came into service, through my memory doesn't have the F18 as the ready aircraft.
Your F-16 confusion
When answering my question you just created more confusion. I know the USN uses F-16's in the aggressor role to act as enemy aircraft. But my friend you have at least alluded to F-16's being launched from carriers. The Top Gun school ain't on water, it's on land. Perhaps clearing up what you have said would be a really big help.sdw said:
Can't. My memory says that it was F16s parked on the bustle. However, I can only find references the the F16N being used by the Blue Angels and the Top Gun school. From the fatigue issue, it would appear that the aircraft wasn't robust enough for carrier service.dirtydan said:
I can only find VF squadrons that were flying the F16N. VF-43, VF-45 and VF-126. This is despite the fact that the Grumman page says that the F16N had upgraded struts to enable carrier service. I can't find a VA squadron that flew the F16N and it would have to have been a VA squadron to fill the role I remember.
VF = Fighter
VA = Attack
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I understood that the 'Top Gun' school in Miramar used the F-5 in the aggressor role because it was the closest in capabilities to the MiG-21/23.
The Israelis started dropping bombs after Hezbollah attacked a military patrol in the Chebaa Farms area, which is occupied Lebanese territory, not Israeli.
I see it now being reported in the media as a 'cross border incursion' by Hezbollah. It was the Israelis who were across the border.
Hezbollah started firing rockets after Israel started dropping bombs on Lebanon, not before.
The Israelis started dropping bombs after Hezbollah attacked a military patrol in the Chebaa Farms area, which is occupied Lebanese territory, not Israeli.
I see it now being reported in the media as a 'cross border incursion' by Hezbollah. It was the Israelis who were across the border.
Human Rights Watch
Human Rights Watch: Israel Guilty of War Crimes
Thursday 03 August 2006
Human Rights Watch, after extensive investigation, has concluded that the Israeli military is guilty of war crimes. HRW says:
Israeli forces have systematically failed to distinguish between combatants and civilians in their military campaign against Hezbollah in Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said in report released today. The pattern of attacks in more than 20 cases investigated by Human Rights Watch researchers in Lebanon indicates that the failures cannot be dismissed as mere accidents and cannot be blamed on wrongful Hezbollah practices. In some cases, these attacks constitute war crimes.
The 50-page report, "Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon," analyzes almost two dozen cases of Israeli air and artillery attacks on civilian homes and vehicles. Of the 153 dead civilians named in the report, 63 are children. More than 500 people have been killed in Lebanon by Israeli fire since fighting began on July 12, most of them civilians.
"The pattern of attacks shows the Israeli military's disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "Our research shows that Israel's claim that Hezbollah fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel's indiscriminate warfare."
HRW's investigations do not bear out the excuse that the high civilian casualty rate is because of Hizbullah hiding among civilians:
Human Rights Watch researchers found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.
In one case, an Israeli air strike on July 13 destroyed the home of a cleric known to have sympathy for Hezbollah but who was not known to have taken any active part in the hostilities. Even if the IDF considered him a legitimate target (and Human Rights Watch has no evidence that he was), the strike killed him, his wife, their 10 children and the family's Sri Lankan maid.
On July 16, an Israeli aircraft fired on a civilian home in the village of Aitaroun, killing 11 members of the al-Akhrass family, among them seven Canadian-Lebanese dual nationals who were vacationing in the village when the war began. Human Rights Watch independently interviewed three villagers who vigorously denied that the family had any connection to Hezbollah. Among the victims were children aged one, three, five and seven.
The Israeli government has blamed Hezbollah for the high civilian casualty toll in Lebanon, insisting that Hezbollah fighters have hidden themselves and their weapons among the civilian population. However, in none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in the report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah was operating in or around the area during or prior to the attack.
Human Rights Watch: Israel Guilty of War Crimes
Thursday 03 August 2006
Human Rights Watch, after extensive investigation, has concluded that the Israeli military is guilty of war crimes. HRW says:
Israeli forces have systematically failed to distinguish between combatants and civilians in their military campaign against Hezbollah in Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said in report released today. The pattern of attacks in more than 20 cases investigated by Human Rights Watch researchers in Lebanon indicates that the failures cannot be dismissed as mere accidents and cannot be blamed on wrongful Hezbollah practices. In some cases, these attacks constitute war crimes.
The 50-page report, "Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon," analyzes almost two dozen cases of Israeli air and artillery attacks on civilian homes and vehicles. Of the 153 dead civilians named in the report, 63 are children. More than 500 people have been killed in Lebanon by Israeli fire since fighting began on July 12, most of them civilians.
"The pattern of attacks shows the Israeli military's disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "Our research shows that Israel's claim that Hezbollah fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel's indiscriminate warfare."
HRW's investigations do not bear out the excuse that the high civilian casualty rate is because of Hizbullah hiding among civilians:
Human Rights Watch researchers found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.
In one case, an Israeli air strike on July 13 destroyed the home of a cleric known to have sympathy for Hezbollah but who was not known to have taken any active part in the hostilities. Even if the IDF considered him a legitimate target (and Human Rights Watch has no evidence that he was), the strike killed him, his wife, their 10 children and the family's Sri Lankan maid.
On July 16, an Israeli aircraft fired on a civilian home in the village of Aitaroun, killing 11 members of the al-Akhrass family, among them seven Canadian-Lebanese dual nationals who were vacationing in the village when the war began. Human Rights Watch independently interviewed three villagers who vigorously denied that the family had any connection to Hezbollah. Among the victims were children aged one, three, five and seven.
The Israeli government has blamed Hezbollah for the high civilian casualty toll in Lebanon, insisting that Hezbollah fighters have hidden themselves and their weapons among the civilian population. However, in none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in the report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah was operating in or around the area during or prior to the attack.
Well let's see here, I usually don't buy "International Air Power Review" because for a magazine it's a tad expensive. Although each issue is quite thick. But I did buy their "Special Carrier Aviation Issue" back in 2001, which covers every navy that operated or is operating carriers since WW2. And looking through the very extensive section on the USN and USMC there IS NOT a F-16 to be seen. In fact I don't see a single aircraft type made by General Dynamics being used by either service in a combat role. I forget which company bought/merge with GD.sdw said:
Now I'm ain't calling you a liar, but rather you are quite mixed up in your information.
Now a F-16 could have been parked on a carrier for show. It might have been just a prototype. Hell, you might have been looking at the USS Intrepid in New York City for all I know. No doubt the F-16 has been/is being used for as an aggressor aircraft at the land based Top Gun school. I do believe the F-16's replaced the A-4's and the F-5's in that role. The fact is, the USN and USMC went with the F/A-18 not with the F-16.
I thought that I had just pointed out that I couldn't find an unit that flew the F16N other than the 3 aggressor squadrons. VF126 is the agressor squadron at the Top Gun school, 43 and 45 are the aggressor squadrons at the other 2 Navy flight schools. I also pointed out that the squadrons have switched over to F16Cs because the F16N had problems with metal fatigue.dirtydan said:
Cleanup time
Perhaps we are seeing a point in time when the reason to cleanup the world is nearing enevitability. It seems there are those that will never be happy making peace, on both sides. Diplomacy has been a temporary bandaid but there is no fix. Now one side is so much stronger and can beat up the other and is pretty fed up with ceaseless provocation. So the weaker side comes back with some buddies and the whole shit house escalates. But with nukes a bigger threat to be drawn in than ever before, and those who feel oppressed victims can't say much other than 'I kill you', then genocide begins its ugly toll. Daddy will have to come in and send both kids to their rooms and lock the doors.
Perhaps we are seeing a point in time when the reason to cleanup the world is nearing enevitability. It seems there are those that will never be happy making peace, on both sides. Diplomacy has been a temporary bandaid but there is no fix. Now one side is so much stronger and can beat up the other and is pretty fed up with ceaseless provocation. So the weaker side comes back with some buddies and the whole shit house escalates. But with nukes a bigger threat to be drawn in than ever before, and those who feel oppressed victims can't say much other than 'I kill you', then genocide begins its ugly toll. Daddy will have to come in and send both kids to their rooms and lock the doors.
Ohlmert is actually only emulating his American idols:
A proposed U.N. resolution authorizing a peace force for Kosovo is a "step forward," but until all of NATO's demands are carried out -- including the withdrawal of Serb forces -- the bombing of Yugoslavia will continue, President Clinton said Tuesday.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9906/08/us.kosovo.01/
A proposed U.N. resolution authorizing a peace force for Kosovo is a "step forward," but until all of NATO's demands are carried out -- including the withdrawal of Serb forces -- the bombing of Yugoslavia will continue, President Clinton said Tuesday.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9906/08/us.kosovo.01/
Seriously though, Israel has more than a right, its a duty to go after these Hezbolla guys. In war there are no innocents, in other words it is Hezbolla who started this thing. They (Hezbolla) are ramdomly dropping bombs, no warnings, and thats OK!!! Israel drops warnings leaflets to leave, then bombs, and thats not OK!!!? Give me a break, so how do you defend your house ???? I am 100% OK with the elimination of Iraq, Iran, and the rest that hate the Jewish, and the Christian people, lets get them before they get us. That is just sick to think that unprovoked attacks don't deserve to be responded to. Lebanon is just as guilty as Hezbolla, they are not innocent. Sorry, people die in wars, get over it. But, this isnt war, this is sissy punk terrorists that fight like chickens.
This is not the mainstream Muslims doing this but a bunch of fanatical extremists.
The Israeli are flying hundreds of sorties per day and unfortunately errors can occur. FYI - The allies in WW2 did the same thing when they destroyed complete German cities from the air, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Germans.
This is not the mainstream Muslims doing this but a bunch of fanatical extremists.
The Israeli are flying hundreds of sorties per day and unfortunately errors can occur. FYI - The allies in WW2 did the same thing when they destroyed complete German cities from the air, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Germans.
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