The Israeli air force uses the E-2 Hawkeye and a number of other command and control aircraft. Going back to the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, when attacking Syrian SAM sites in Lebanon, the Syrians turned on their radars at the last moment in hopes the Israeli missiles wouldn't get a lock on the position. More often than not, the Syrian SAM sites were blown to smithereens.sdw said:
Current Israeli/Lebanese conflict
- Thread starter gravitas
- Start date
amazing restraint
I am amazed that Israel has put up with the Hezboller shit for so long. How often do you need to have rockets land in your backyard before you are sick and fucking tired of it. If the Lebanese had any sense, they would find the Hezbollers and kill them where they stand, then put the corpses out for the IDF drones to see.
As far as airforces go, the USAF can beat all others because of the way their forces are integrated. Good luck Iran when you try and find out. If everything else fails, just turn the whole goddamn space into a flat piece of glass.
I am amazed that Israel has put up with the Hezboller shit for so long. How often do you need to have rockets land in your backyard before you are sick and fucking tired of it. If the Lebanese had any sense, they would find the Hezbollers and kill them where they stand, then put the corpses out for the IDF drones to see.
As far as airforces go, the USAF can beat all others because of the way their forces are integrated. Good luck Iran when you try and find out. If everything else fails, just turn the whole goddamn space into a flat piece of glass.
The Integrated Battle Management System is designed and very good at destroying enemy military forces.dirtydan said:
In both Desert Storm and Operation Freedom, the enemy military force was rapidly destroyed.
The reason that Iraq is going so badly for the Americans is that IBMS is not good at fighting low tech terrorists. To fight what was predictable by anyone other than the Bush Administration would have required around 500,000 trained troops on the ground. The BA put 50,000 on the ground in the early part of the war and hasn't ever had 200,000 on the ground.
The Bush Administration didn't destroy the armories when they had the chance, didn't mount patrols on the borders and didn't immediately put 150,000 or so Military Police in the urban areas. They continue to pay the price for ignoring anything they didn't want to hear.
The reason that Bush 1 didn't proceed to Bagdad in Desert Storm is that he had served in an occupation army and knew what it would take. Bush 1 knew that he couldn't keep 500,000 people in Iraq for the 5 - 10 years that would have been needed. He did provide 500,000 people for Desert Storm and they accomplished what they intended.
Bush 2 has and continues to ask more of the American Armed Forces than Americans are willing to pay for. Unless Bush 2 is willing to have a standing Armed Forces of 3 or more million people under arms, they really need to back off on empty threats and encouraging people to feel that they have no choice except aggressive hostile action.
With the porosity of the American borders, the USA already has 200,000 to 500,000 people inside their borders who bear them undying hatred. They just finished transporting 2,000 to 5,000 back inside the country. Or do they really think that all the Lebanese they evacuated are anti Hezbollah?
Israel only has 4 E2-C Aircraft all built in 1978dirtydan said:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/toppan/e2.html
Israel has no E3 Sentry Aircraft
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/toppan/e3.html
Nor does Israel have the Navy E6-B Mercury (707), the old E135 Looking Glass (707), E8 STARS (707) or the E10 (767) I actually don’t think that anyone else has, but I can’t find any information on assembly numbers on the aircraft that the US is still using.
There is a huge difference between what an aircraft that has 6 crew can do and the sort of command and control possible with 30 or more crew.
The E8 was used for Air Traffic Control during a Controllers strike, they didn’t drop any aircraft despite the amount of traffic. Nobody would try that with a E2-C.
The E2 can only chuff and huff if it comes under attack. The E6 carries it’s own defense and also can unload the rails of the aircraft it is controlling. E2s have been successfully attacked. No 707 based command and control aircraft has ever been successfully attacked.
The year built can have little to do with aircraft's capabilities. Take for instance the youngest B-52 in the USAF's inventory has 16 years on any of the IDF's E-2's. What really counts is maintance and upgrades. An older, well maintained and kept up to do aircraft can be just as good and perhaps better than some newer models.sdw said:
Not many countries do. Other than the USAF, I do believe the other operators of the E-3 are the British, French, and Saudi air forces as well as NATO using multi-national crews.sdw said:
Not having the high tech stuff from the US does not necessarily rule out similar capabilites. Offhand I couldn't say what exactly the IDF has in its inventory for ELINT and EW aircraft, but I would not be surprised if they had smaller aircraft performing similar roles.sdw said:
Sure. However what does Israel need? Perhaps a handful of E-3's would be too expensive.sdw said:
Talk to the USN. Seems to me they have quite a few E-2's still in service.sdw said:
If it does. The idea being not to expose an E-2 or an E-3 to combat, but should be find themselves in trouble I would guess an escort of fighter would come to the rescue.sdw said:
I would not be surprised that they have. Given the amount of E-2's that have been and are in service and with a number of air forces and and couple of navies that sooner or later shit is going to happen.sdw said:
That's what Korean passenger aircraft are for. Ask the Russians.sdw said:
So far enemy conventional forces that have been far less capable than the US military. Kicking the shit out of Iraq twice is pretty much the same thing of the Germans attacking the Belgians.sdw said:
Rapidly? If one wishes to count only the ground war of DS. Factor in the air campaign and DS was a tad longer. As for Operation Freedom, it's not like the Iraqis had fully recoverd from the shit kicking they took some ten years earlier. Hell they got whopped by what? The equivalent of 6 to 8 divisions?sdw said:
Very true. An example of high tech not being the grand solution to everything.sdw said:
Now why do the names of Cheney and Rumsfeld come to mind?sdw said:
And "firing" nealry all of the Iraqi army after the conventional part of the war didn't help either.sdw said:
Where did Pappy Bush serve in that role? Japan? Germany? Austria? Italy?sdw said:
And at least the old man served his country during war. The kid did his bit by defending the skies of the 48 from North Vietnamese MiGs. Tough to imagine that Dubyah was trained to fly the F-102. Yah it was 50's technology, but the idea of that moron flying an airplane (an INTERCEPTOR at that!) is mind boggling.
But that didn't stop him from deliberately misleading people into thinking he was going to oust Saddam Hussien. How many Kurds and how many Shiites died for that?sdw said:
Let's keep in mind too, the UN wasn't fussy in granting the coalition the go-ahead to rumble into Baghdad.
There is a deep fear of the Republicans bringing back conscription. Military recruitment quotas aren't being met and so the personnel shortage continues. Maybe more Haliburton employees are needed?sdw said:
Good point.sdw said:
The fact is the Lebanese Army doesn't have the strength to do that. Despite the civil war ending 15 years ago, the country and its military are still recovering from it. Besides waging a war against Hezbollah forces could re-ignite the civil war.Ilovethemall said:
And how's that?Ilovethemall said:
Nukes make you hard?Ilovethemall said:
Not to rain on anyof you fuckers,,but
Isreali air power as of 06/est
-248 F-16 / different configs
-89 F-14/diff configs
-70 F-4A's,diff configs
That,and I'm sure they have a few F-18 super hornets
edit,,sorry kids
Isreali air power as of 06/est
-248 F-16 / different configs
-89 F-14/diff configs
-70 F-4A's,diff configs
That,and I'm sure they have a few F-18 super hornets
edit,,sorry kids
I attached links to the E2 units because it is noted what upgrades each aircraft has received. The Israeli units have never been back to Grumman or Rayathon.dirtydan said:
The countries flying the E3 are in the link.dirtydan said:
The E2s are it. http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/homepage.asp?clr=1&sl=EN&id=-8888&force=1dirtydan said:
The 707 based command aircraft have proven to pay for themselves in avoiding the loss of expensive units. F4 = 18 million, F15E = 40 milliondirtydan said:
The E2-C flys with full communication with the Carrier and Agies Cruiser.dirtydan said:
The Cruiser receives the take from the E2-C and does the Surface, Sub-Surface and In-Envelope Air Defence. The Carrier receives the take from the E2-C and does the Air Battle. When the Carrier group is supporting a ground battle, a E6-B takes the Land Battle Coordination. The USN doesn't deploy the E2 remotely from the Carrier group.
The E2 doesn't have the ability to control the rails of the fighters it controls. The pilot of a fighter sometimes loses their situational awareness because of hard manuvering or a surplus of work. When that happens the 707s can all control the rails of the fighters under their control and get them out of trouble.dirtydan said:
Remember the 4 Canadians killed by the F16? It was an E2 that had the air command that night. The E2 had too much work and allowed the F16 to be weapons free in a situation they had been briefed to. That wouldn't have happened if an 707 had been available for air command.
The KAL 747 didn't respond to the challange. If you have a MIG on your tail with missiles on his rails, I would submit that it's a really good idea to tell them who you are and obey their instructions. Even if it meant an unscheduled stop in the USSR. The pilots of the KAL flight had been trying to save fuel, when they were challenged they thought that the USSR wouldn't fire and they could continue to fly their course. They were wrong. That hadn't been the first KAL using that route and the USSR was quite convinced that the flights were taking pictures and harvesting electronic emmissions.dirtydan said:
Where does the influence path lead?Rain Man said:
Re: PNAC - & the 1996 neocon manifesto against the Middle East peace process ... "A Clean Break”
Sidney Blumenthal: Salon.com
Aug. 3, 2006 | The National Security Agency is providing signal intelligence to Israel to monitor whether Syria and Iran are supplying new armaments to Hezbollah as it fires hundreds of missiles into northern Israel, according to a national security official with direct knowledge of the operation. President Bush has approved the secret program.
Inside the administration, neoconservatives on Vice President Dick Cheney's national security staff and Elliott Abrams, the neoconservative senior director for the Near East on the National Security Council, are prime movers behind sharing NSA intelligence with Israel, and they have discussed Syrian and Iranian supply activities as a potential pretext for Israeli bombing of both countries, the source privy to conversations about the program says. (Intelligence, including that gathered by the NSA, has been provided to Israel in the past for various purposes.) The neoconservatives are described as enthusiastic about the possibility of using NSA intelligence as a lever to widen the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah and Israel and Hamas into a four-front war.
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.
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Having failed in the Middle East, the administration is attempting to salvage its credibility by equating Israel's predicament with the U.S. quagmire in Iraq. Neoconservatives, for their part, see the latest risk to Israel's national security as a chance to scuttle U.S. negotiations with Iran, perhaps the last opportunity to realize the fantasies of "A Clean Break."
By using NSA intelligence to set an invisible tripwire, the Bush administration is laying the condition for regional conflagration with untold consequences -- from Pakistan to Afghanistan, from Iraq to Israel. Secretly devising a scheme that might thrust Israel into a ring of fire cannot be construed as a blunder. It is a deliberate, calculated and methodical plot.
Exactly...and who's really doing the influencing? Ohhh....hmmm.....how about the Republican Jewish Coalition???
http://www.rjchq.org/
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/bushjews.html
Now...I realize that I'll get flamed for posting these links and the usual parasites will get out the "yes, we know you" rhetoric, but why is it that Bush hasn't even spoken to the Israeli PM? Isn't that a bit odd?
What would then be the possibility of Israeli Aircraft Industries or some other company having done upgrade work on the E-2's? I would guess that since these planes were bought back in 1978 that something has been done to them in over 25 years of service. Not necessarily IAI, but perhaps another Israeli company or even a company from another country.sdw said:
And priorities must be set. The IDF doesn't have the budgets as the USAF has. Clearly the IDF can't buy all of the expensive goodies that they would likely want to have. Added to that, most other air forces don't have the electronic aircraft as the USAF.sdw said:
Not entirely, but the USN would deploy their E-2's up to 200 miles from the Carrier Battle Group. And with the back and forth communication the USN does with its E-2's, then one could assume the IDF uses their's in a similar manner.sdw said:
By rails, I take it you are referring to the launch rails for the fighter's missiles?sdw said:
No, an E-3 type aircraft was involved as well. Not necessarily an E-3 Sentry, but one involved in command and control. Nevertheless the pilot was being too much of a cowboy and that's what really led to those 4 deaths.sdw said:
I think it was one of Su or Yak series of fighters, one of the older jet interceptors long since taken out of service.sdw said:
A terrible incident caused by the coming together of misdeeds. One as you mentioned above, the KAL flight taking a short cut and perhaps conducting intelligence missions. Two, the US had been flying some of its ELINT aircraft in the area off and on. So at night a 747 can look a lot like something based on a 707. I wonder how much egg was on the American's faces when a few years later they shot down an Iranian passenger jet?
I think it's Israeli Aircraft Industries that has a major upgrade program for the old F-4 Phantom II. And I take it F-14 was to have been F-15. The only operators of the F-14 Tomcats outside of the USN is the Iranian Air Force, and I doubt a little more than a handful are effectively operational.stryker said:Not to rain on anyof you fuckers,,but
Isreali air power as of 06/est
-248 F-16 / different configs
-89 F-14/diff configs
-70 F-4A's,diff configs
That,and I'm sure they have a few F-18 super hornets
edit,,sorry kids
I mentioned at one time Canada wanted to buy these F-14's from Iran, but the US was quite pissed off about it so Canada backed down. A F-14 would have been the closest thing to a CF-105 Arrow we would have had to patrol the northern skies.
The IDF Air Force has been using the F-4 since the late 60's with the F-15's and F-16's since the late 70's/early 80's. Since then they have bought new and used ones from the US from time to time.
Under the administrations of Bush 1 and Clinton, Israel was found to have a lot of people in place in the intelligence community and the USN. Specifically, Israel was spying on the US to get access to information that the administrations were chosing not to provide to Israel.dirtydan said:
Israel was also in a relationship with South Africa, where it is felt that much of the US technology that had been provided on a real-time basis was being illegally transfered to South Africa.
There wasn't an open break with Israel, but Israel wasn't being given access to the newest equipment.
More than the offensive missiles. Modern warcraft have launch rails for warshots, rails for ordanance and rails for defensive devices.dirtydan said:
If you are too busy to chuff and huff, looking glass will do it for you.
The reason that the US has lost a lot of pilots is that the E2 was the only CAC in the air. The US didn't want to fly aircraft out of Japan or the Phillipines and were therefore only using the carrier based assets.dirtydan said:
The major wasn't being a cowboy. The E2 failed to pass on to him that the Canadians were conducting a live fire exercise with their antitank weapons.
The Canadians are the only NATO force that still uses the 106 recoilless rifle for antitank work. The 106 is basically a rocket launcher and it emits a flare very similar to a rail launched anti air system when it is fired.
The major had never witnessed a 106 being fired and had to draw on what knowledge he had in the absence of information from CAC.
He was made a scrapegoat for high level failures to:
1. provide a CAC that was capable of handling the amount of work in the area.
2. properly brief the pilots that something they weren't familiar with was being used.
3. when he contacted the CAC, prior to the attack, failing to realize that he was seeing a 106 in action, failing to realize that his experiance would tell him that it was a war shot launched at him and failing to warn him off.
The evidence presented at the court martial clearly showed that the CAC hadn't realized that it was necessary that he know that a 106 was in action. Once the command structure realized that the Canadians wanted blood, they choose to offer the major up.
Conseqently, a large number of pilots have decided if the Bush Administration wants to conduct war on the cheap, they won't be the scrapegoat when it goes wrong.
The same thing is happening at all levels of the US armed forces. The Infantry and Calvary think their lives are being offered up too cheaply, the navy isn't willing to be on a carrier that isn't excorted by a full screen and the flyboys have become adherants of gun film and personal copies of communications.
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jeez what part of hezbolah having 2 ministers in the present govt. dont u understand?westwoody said:
also try these statements on for size, the leader of hezbollah told an interviewer that
1. he told the leadership of the lebanese govt what hezbullah was going to do and they agreed to the plan
2. that he was very much surprised at the response of the isrielis.
the president of lebanen came out with theses choice words about u.n peacekeeping force being put in between isreal and hezbullah
there would be no peacekeeping force allowed into lebanon because syria and iran plus hezbullah would not allow it
if the US would just fock off and mind their own business the whole world would be a frickin better place to live. if they would stop pestering the middle east and their oil the world would be a better place. if they stopped loading countries with ammunition and backup troops..the world would be a better place.) quote
what kind of drugs are u on lady.
Schools and apartment buildings in Beruit as well? The IDF doesn't give a flying shit if civilians or UN peacekeepers happen to get hurt or killed. They want to kill whom they deem as their enemies with little if any regard for the consequences when innocents do get the worse of it.
(The latest line from the Israel can do no wrong crowd is Lebanon is being held hostage by Hezbollah. I guess to the IDF that means more and more innocent need to be killed in order to free them from Hezbollah.) from dirtydan
It is a war crime to knowingly place or to deploy military assets within the civilian population for the soul purpose to protect them from being attacked.
The F4 is upgraded with a kit from Boeing/Rayathon.dirtydan said:
There are two varients. A antiradiation platform that the US, Israel and other contries use to attack antiaircraft command and control sites. In both Desert Storm and Operation Freedom, it was the F4 Weazel that made it safe for other aircraft to operate in the area.
The second is a ground support platform. The F4 is very stable and can fly slow enough for the pilot to directly support ground elements. It also can carry 8 tons of ordanance and ammo for a mixture of 50 caliber and 25mm guns. While the A10 is the prefered tank/armour killer, the F4 is pretty good at the job. The F4 can take a fair amount of ground fire without becoming inoperative which makes it superior in some ways to the Apache Heliocopter which has proved to be a little delicate.
Additional factoids
The F4 that is upgraded is the Navy version. The Airforce version doesn't have landing gear heavy enough to handle takeoff/landing with 8 tons of ordanance.
Part of the attraction of the Navy F4 is it is designed and proven to handle compact runways.
The F4 carries 4 times the load of the other champion compact runway warcraft. The F16.
The F16 can takeoff sans catapult from it's ready position on the bustle of a carrier. The whole time I served there were 2 parked there with their "package in white" strapped on.
The F4 needs catapault assist, but lands more accurately than anything else.
A Navy pilot can put a F4 down in the paint unlike an Airforce wennie who needs a couple of miles of clear runway.
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I think Israel is making things way worse in the long run. I think its almost funny really. Everyday they kill civilians and blow up their homes hezbollah gets more support and recruits after the war is over. You see..hezbollah isn't some tyranical organization that keeps their own people suffering. They have free medical clinics for the poor, bring in fresh water for people that don't have any, and in general are a very helpful organization to the lebonese people.
Israel should stop alot of the bombing on the lebonese civilians and stop breeding this animosity. Alot of the bombs were specifically place to destroy the infastructure(roads, bridges, powerplants) and the economy for one. Also they drop leaflets before they bomb so how in fact are they hitting hezbollah? Hezbollah will leave just like the civilians when they see the them. Sure they might hit some stores of rockets sometimes but by far and large the civilians eat the bill.
The link is fairly graphic. Don't click if you have a weak stomache.
http://www.downtownbeirut.com/Genocide/israel-genocide-in-lebanon.htm
Israel should stop alot of the bombing on the lebonese civilians and stop breeding this animosity. Alot of the bombs were specifically place to destroy the infastructure(roads, bridges, powerplants) and the economy for one. Also they drop leaflets before they bomb so how in fact are they hitting hezbollah? Hezbollah will leave just like the civilians when they see the them. Sure they might hit some stores of rockets sometimes but by far and large the civilians eat the bill.
The link is fairly graphic. Don't click if you have a weak stomache.
http://www.downtownbeirut.com/Genocide/israel-genocide-in-lebanon.htm
