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Zimmerman Trial - Murder Off the Table WTF!!!!!

storm rider

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That's why they have bankruptcy laws. Casey Anthony declared bankruptcy, it's just a matter of time before Zimmerman does as well.
Bankruptcy shmankruptcy....it is a frivolous environment in legal circles to pursue it and the lawyers that do so are akin to carrion birds that feast on roadkill....AKA Vultures.

Zimmerman faced trial by jury and was found not guilty by that jury.Now he has to face frivilous civil litigation that is spurred on by ambulance chasing lawyers who have dollar signs for retinas.

The guy got aquitted by a jury and he will most likely be sued with civil lawsuits for the financial gain by the family and others after he was aquittted by a judicial trial.All I can say is it is fucking BS.Same goes for
the civil suit against OJ after he was aquitted.If you dont go to jail under the rule of law you sure as fuck should not be subject to the whims of money hungry scumbag lawyers.

SR
 

juniper

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Storm Rider: Civil and criminal law are different and there are different levels re findings. In criminal, guilt is decided by the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard whereas in civil it's a lesser standard, something akin to ``the balance of probabilities``. Still, it appears to be utterly unfair to have to undergoe civil proceedings after having gone through the trying circumstance of a heated criminal trial. The legal system eats people up. That`s one reason why it`s better to avoid it altogether.
 

vancity_cowboy

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Jan 27, 2008
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Sorry to you'all, but if I see any young guy, wearing a hoodie, colour of the hoodie or person is NOT important, lingering around my building's exits, I'm going to begin a criminal profile. In fact, he doesn't have to be young, but wearing a hoodie, hanging around the doorways is enough. But he's not going to end up dead either.....Zimmerman should pay for taking another person's life when he should have been at home watching tv.
i don't wear hoodies...

 

storm rider

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Dec 6, 2008
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Storm Rider: Civil and criminal law are different and there are different levels re findings. In criminal, guilt is decided by the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard whereas in civil it's a lesser standard, something akin to ``the balance of probabilities``. Still, it appears to be utterly unfair to have to undergoe civil proceedings after having gone through the trying circumstance of a heated criminal trial. The legal system eats people up. That`s one reason why it`s better to avoid it altogether.
I do of course know the difference between criminal and civil law.Thankfully in Canada we dont see such frivilous civil lawsuits like they do in "sue happy USA"

SR
 

HankQuinlan

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Sep 7, 2002
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Stand your ground makes sense. Not protecting yourself makes no sense. Being a "victim" of someone else's aggression is not taking the moral highroad; it's a form of self-defeating suicide. Attaching all this to some corporate conspiracy is, of course, within the realm of moviemaker Michael Moore and acolytes like M. Bijou.
Finally, you are making sense. It would indeed have been ridiculous for an innocent kid not to try and defend himself against some self-appointed rent-a-cop harassing him as he walked home.
 

FunSugarDaddy

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Finally, you are making sense. It would indeed have been ridiculous for an innocent kid not to try and defend himself against some self-appointed rent-a-cop harassing him as he walked home.
What's even more ridiculous is that if Martin would have had a concealed weapon as Zimmerman did, it would have been illegal because he was under 21.

So a colleague of mine said to me today, that if you want to go around killing black people and then claim self defense, make sure it's the children you're killing, because they can't have guns, and you can.

I know that's a bit extreme but that is basically the law based on this verdict given the actions we know.
 

juniper

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Martin 6'3" tall and Zimmerman 5'9".

Finally, you are making sense. It would indeed have been ridiculous for an innocent kid not to try and defend himself against some self-appointed rent-a-cop harassing him as he walked home.
 

CJVancity

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Sep 8, 2012
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This is a very sad event and my heart goes out to the Martin's family. I was completely on board with the idea that Zimmerman should have been punished to the full extent of the law for murder when this case first came to light in the media based on presented context of the story.

However, the people who are trashing the jury and the outcome need to turn off the news and stop reading the paper and actually go back and look at the case that was presented. There's a big difference between the case that the prosecution presented in court and the picture that the media painted this case to be.
 

Tugela

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What's even more ridiculous is that if Martin would have had a concealed weapon as Zimmerman did, it would have been illegal because he was under 21.

So a colleague of mine said to me today, that if you want to go around killing black people and then claim self defense, make sure it's the children you're killing, because they can't have guns, and you can.

I know that's a bit extreme but that is basically the law based on this verdict given the actions we know.
Zimmerman wasn't going around killing black kids, so your argument is absurd.

He killed a guy who attacked him. It is that simple. The fact that the attacker was black and was a teenager has no bearing on that.

He had every right as a resident of the closed neighborhood to confront Martin.

He did NOT have the right to attack Martin, but guess what, there is zero evidence that he did.

Likewise, Martin did NOT have the right to attack Zimmerman, no matter what was said or did if he himself was not being attacked. But the evidence suggests that he DID attack Zimmerman.

The basic principle behind self defence is that when you are ATTACKED, you can defend yourself. Note: someone else being creepy, obnoxious, insulting or whatever does NOT give you the right to attack. Watching TV and other commentary it is pretty clear that a lot of people are confused about this basic principle. The evidence suggests that Zimmerman was being creepy, but that Martin attacked him. The escalation to a physical encounter came with the attack, not with being creepy, and that is where the door to self defence is opened. The criminal act would have begun when Martin attacked, not when Zimmerman shot him. This is the reason he was acquitted.

The only people who know exactly what happened are Martin and Zimmerman, for the rest of us judgement should be based on what evidence there is, not theories, expectations or bias.
 

juniper

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I read the article which you cited, Fred. Essentially, it maintains, as you wrote, that jury instructions favored the accused. That was due to the fact that, while hurting someone who threatens you may be considered self-defense and self-defense itself is a justifiable means of protection, it is not considered self-defense if first you unduly provoke someone and that person becomes violent as a result. You cannot subsequently then use self-defense as a rationale for injuring or even killing the same person whom you formerly provoked. The article you cited indicates that the judge, for various reasons, failed to instruct the jury about that particular part of the law on self-defense.

The writer's contention is that George Zimmerman baited Martin unduly so that Martin, in turn, reacted violently. Of course, we still have the scenario of a stranger (Martin) wandering through a gated community who may have refused to respond to the questions posed by George Zimmerman, a man who was, in fact, in charge of insuring that the people who resided in that community would be kept secure during the night. So the provocation argument as posed by the writer you cited is really not at all assured in this case. Still, the article you cited and the description of the details on the law of self-defense (in Florida) make for excellent reading and contemplation and an appreciation of the ongoing attempt to establish social justice through the study and enactment of jurisprudence. During the Middle Ages, incidentally, there were only three recognized professions: clergymen; physicians; and lawyers.
 
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asdfg1218

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Just curious but did anyone who is upset or surprised by the ruling actually watch the trial live on CNN?
 

FunSugarDaddy

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Zimmerman wasn't going around killing black kids, so your argument is absurd.

He killed a guy who attacked him. It is that simple. The fact that the attacker was black and was a teenager has no bearing on that.

He had every right as a resident of the closed neighborhood to confront Martin.

He did NOT have the right to attack Martin, but guess what, there is zero evidence that he did.

Likewise, Martin did NOT have the right to attack Zimmerman, no matter what was said or did if he himself was not being attacked. But the evidence suggests that he DID attack Zimmerman.

The basic principle behind self defence is that when you are ATTACKED, you can defend yourself. Note: someone else being creepy, obnoxious, insulting or whatever does NOT give you the right to attack. Watching TV and other commentary it is pretty clear that a lot of people are confused about this basic principle. The evidence suggests that Zimmerman was being creepy, but that Martin attacked him. The escalation to a physical encounter came with the attack, not with being creepy, and that is where the door to self defence is opened. The criminal act would have begun when Martin attacked, not when Zimmerman shot him. This is the reason he was acquitted.

The only people who know exactly what happened are Martin and Zimmerman, for the rest of us judgement should be based on what evidence there is, not theories, expectations or bias.
I'm not questing the jury verdict, I think it was correct based on the evidence at hand.

But if you think Zimmerman would have gotten out of his vehicle and followed Martin if he didn't have a gun, I think you're wrong. And if you think Trayvon Martin didn't have the same right to defend himself, I again think you are wrong. Let's get a couple of things straight, both had a legal right to defend themselves, but Zimmerman clearly initiated the confrontation and Zimmerman was legally allowed to own a concealed weapon and Trayvon Martin wasn't. Absent Zimmerman's right to own a concealed weapon this incident never would have occurred.

Where you are wrong in your comments is there really is no evidence either way as to who initiated contact, and as such it was more a lack of evidence that resulted in the not guilty verdict as opposed to a jury claiming Martin initiated anything. My comment relates to the fact Zimmerman would never even have followed Martin had he not had a gun, and in all likelihood I think it was Zimmerman who approached Martin in a confrontational manner. Martin was simply minding his own business and Zimmerman decided he was a troublemaker. That false assumption along with Zimmerman being brave because he has a concealed weapon started this whole incident.
 

FunSugarDaddy

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I read the article which you cited, Fred. Essentially, it maintains, as you wrote, that jury instructions favored the accused. That was due to the fact that, while hurting someone who threatens you may be considered self-defense and self-defense itself is a justifiable means of protection, it is not considered self-defense if first you unduly provoke someone and that person becomes violent as a result. You cannot subsequently then use self-defense as a rationale for injuring or even killing the same person whom you formerly provoked. The article you cited indicates that the judge, for various reasons, failed to instruct the jury about that particular part of the law on self-defense.

The writer's contention is that George Zimmerman baited Martin unduly so that Martin, in turn, reacted violently. Of course, we still have the scenario of a stranger (Martin) wandering through a gated community who may have refused to respond to the questions posed by George Zimmerman, a man who was, in fact, in charge of insuring that the people who resided in that community would be kept secure during the night. So the provocation argument as posed by the writer you cited is really not at all assured in this case. Still, the article you cited and the description of the details on the law of self-defense (in Florida) make for excellent reading and contemplation and an appreciation of the ongoing attempt to establish social justice through the study and enactment of jurisprudence. During the Middle Ages, incidentally, there were only three recognized professions: clergymen; physicians; and lawyers.
This is wrong on so many levels.

Firstly there's no indication whatsoever that Zimmerman described who he was and what his role in the community was.

From Martin's point of view he was being stalked.

Secondly, when is self defense only a one way street?

Didn't Martin have the right to defend himself when from his point of view, some nut just out of the blue started confronting him?

Why couldn't Zimmerman had said, "I'm an armed community watchman and I want to know what purpose you have in the community?"

If he had said that do you really think there would have been an attack initiated by either party?

The problem with your analysis is you have tunnel vision and only see this incident from one person's viewpoint, which happens to be Zimmerman's.
 

Cock Throppled

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Oct 1, 2003
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This is wrong on so many levels.

Firstly there's no indication whatsoever that Zimmerman described who he was and what his role in the community was.

From Martin's point of view he was being stalked.

Secondly, when is self defense only a one way street?

Didn't Martin have the right to defend himself when from his point of view, some nut just out of the blue started confronting him?

Why couldn't Zimmerman had said, "I'm an armed community watchman and I want to know what purpose you have in the community?"

If he had said that do you really think there would have been an attack initiated by either party?

The problem with your analysis is you have tunnel vision and only see this incident from one person's viewpoint, which happens to be Zimmerman's.
You are also making assumptions.

No proof Z didn't identify himself clearly and what he was doing.

If Martin thought he was being stalked was it because he refused to answer legitimate questions, mouthed off and ran away and then was being hunted? The police had been called by Zimmerman, so Martin would have been hunted by them at some point, too.

If they got into a physical altercation each has a right to self defence, but if one goes beyond that to trying to beat someone to death, then the expectation is the one being beaten might use any means to save his life. Zimmerman had no idea if Martin was armed in some way, too. (which made hmgetting out of the care evn more stupid).

How do you know what and what not was said by either party throughout the incident?

How do you know Martin hadn't spotted some opportunity to do something nefarious, was confronted and that's why he didn't co-operate?

This can go around in circles forever, but we weren't there and we don't know what really happened.
 

FunSugarDaddy

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You are also making assumptions.

No proof Z didn't identify himself clearly and what he was doing.

If Martin thought he was being stalked was it because he refused to answer legitimate questions, mouthed off and ran away and then was being hunted? The police had been called by Zimmerman, so Martin would have been hunted by them at some point, too.

If they got into a physical altercation each has a right to self defence, but if one goes beyond that to trying to beat someone to death, then the expectation is the one being beaten might use any means to save his life. Zimmerman had no idea if Martin was armed in some way, too. (which made hmgetting out of the care evn more stupid).

How do you know what and what not was said by either party throughout the incident?

How do you know Martin hadn't spotted some opportunity to do something nefarious, was confronted and that's why he didn't co-operate?

This can go around in circles forever, but we weren't there and we don't know what really happened.
Well to the best of my knowledge, Zimmerman's own defense hasn't suggested that Zimmerman identified himself, and I'm pretty sure if he said he was carrying a loaded gun, and unarmed man wouldn't have initiated an attack. At one point does common sense kick in?

And why did Martin deserve to hunted by anyone? The police or anyone else?

Let's not forget, we do have one side of the story, which is Zimmerman's and to the best of my knowledge he himself hasn't suggested that Martin was in the process of committing a crime, nor do I believe that Zimmerman indicated he identified himself as a community watcher who had a loaded gun in his possession, so if anyone's made assumptions about what someone was or wasn't doing it's you, not I.

The only thing Zimmerman has claimed was that Martin initiated the attack and at the time of the shooting he feared for his safety and his life.

He never claimed that he identified who he was and he saw Martin commit a crime and then confronted Martin and Martin ran away and so he hunted him.. what trial were you watching?
 
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