White meat...

[edmontonsubbie]

....according to the vegans is "not too bad". After reading Nina's ressucitation of a dissertation by blah, blah, blah....I have been compelled to make baby step changes.

There is a body of work out there that suggests red meat is bad. Even the "cow" industry won't market itself on the basis of its health benefits....they always talk about flavour and age of hang. Given that any good marketer will promote the best of any product...and they fail to do so....that pretty much seals the deal. If they can't in any sort of conscience (good or otherwise) stand to promote their own product for its life extending benefits, it's a pretty good bet it has none.

So....back to white meat. Chickens are good. Fish is good. At least, so I'm led to believe. But, as I just returned from shopping at the local market (where I bought pink salmon....in amongst the other delicacies that make that a good bet...fresh lemon, wild rice, some sort of odd california frozen veggie mix...I'm still wondering about that whole "pink" thing though....it sounds a bit red to me)...

New paragraph.

What about pork???? Is that good for you????...neutral????....harmful???? It is, after all, a white meat....even if it has a cloven hoof. I am hoping to expand my protein intake beyond chickens and fish.

kindest,

eddie.

 

[edmontonsubbie]

Hm...you could extend it to other poultry too. Turkey, duck, and others?

I, personally, hate pork because I've always found it way too dry. However, this website shows that it is supposed to be a "powerhouse" of nutrients:

http://www.putporkonyourfork.com/health__nutrition/nutrient_value_of_pork_cuts.html

Mind you, that website is run by the pork companies, so it might be a bit bias.

lol....thanks kim....if they are "way" off base, I trust the power of the free media to refute them. Although, gawd knows I have seen "interest based" fights develop over the years. Still and all, times have changed...I do believe that. And, it's a good thing. I remember people saying "they just don't make cars like they used to....sigh..."....and the best retort to that is..."no, they don't. They make them far better" Brilliant reply for its honesty alone. We live in good times.

Again, thank you. I will add pork to my menu....nothing like a premade salt laden sauce to put the sizzle back into a dry meat. My kiddies love my sauces...they think I am a better cook than their Mom! Fools....but, I love them all. Even Momma. She's a good mommy and I am fortunate to have her in our/their lives. As a my best buddy once said...."you chose well for that"....the unsaid remainder of that statement was...."but, you make so many foolish choices".

Well, the important choices are the ones that count. So long as I make the right decision 51% of the time, I am ahead of most.

cheers,

eddie.

 

[HubbaHubba]

....
I am hoping to expand my protein intake beyond chickens and fish.

kindest,

eddie.

So I don't need to tell you there isn't any in alcohol?

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Are we talking health + environmental only? Or are we also talking ethical + animals (before they end up on our plate) as well? Just wondering....


But if we're sticking to health.. Milk may be a source of protein but it's high in fat and actually not very good for you (unless you're a calf). Approx 60% of us cannot even digest it...

If you're American or European it's hard to realize this, but being able to digest milk as an adult is one weird genetic adaptation.

It's not normal. Somewhat less than 40% of people in the world retain the ability to digest lactose after childhood. The numbers are often given as close to 0% of Native Americans, 5% of Asians, 25% of African and Caribbean peoples, 50% of Mediterranean peoples and 90% of northern Europeans. Sweden has one of the world's highest percentages of lactase tolerant people.

Being able to digest milk is so strange that scientists say we shouldn't really call lactose intolerance a disease, because that presumes it's abnormal. Instead, they call it lactase persistence, indicating what's really weird is the ability to continue to drink milk.

*rest of article here*

"Today, there's a big bank of scientific evidence against milk consumption, alleging not only that it causes some diseases but, equally damning, that it fails to prevent others for which it has traditionally been seen as a panacea. "

"It starts in infancy. Frank Oski, former paediatrics director at Johns Hopkins school of medicine, estimated in his book Don't Drink Your Milk! that half of all iron deficiency in US infants results from cows' milk-induced intestinal bleeding - a staggering amount, since more than 15% of American under-twos suffer from iron-deficiency anaemia. The infants, it seems, drink so much milk (which is very low in iron) that they have little appetite left for foods containing iron; at the same time, the milk, by inducing gastrointestinal bleeding, causes iron loss. "

"According to various studies, there's a whole catalogue of other illnesses that can be attributed to cows' milk, among them diabetes. A 1992 report in the New England Journal of Medicine corroborated a long-standing theory that proteins in cows' milk can damage the production of insulin in those with a genetic predisposition to diabetes. "

"Yet, when you look at it more closely, the extent of lactose intolerance is extraordinary. Lactose is the sugar in milk, and it needs to be broken down by the enzyme lactase that lives in our intestines and bowels. If the lactose we absorb is greater than our lactase capacity, undigested lactose travels to the large intestine, where it ferments, producing gas, carbon dioxide and lactic acid. The result? Bloating, cramps, diarrhoea and farts."

"Major studies suggesting a link between milk and prostate cancer have been appearing since the 1970s, culminating in findings by the Harvard School of Public Health in 2000 that men who consumed two and a half servings of dairy products a day had a third greater risk of getting prostate cancer than those who ate less than half a serving a day. In the same year, T Colin Campbell, the Jacob Gould Schurman Professor of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, said that "cows' milk protein may be the single most significant chemical carcinogen to which humans are exposed"

"Mark Hegsted, a retired Harvard professor of nutrition, has said, "To assume that osteoporosis is due to calcium deficiency is like assuming that infection is due to penicillin deficiency." In fact, the bone loss and deteriorating bone tissue that take place in osteoporosis are due not to calcium deficiency but rather to its resorption: it's not that our bodies don't get enough calcium, rather that they excrete too much of what they already have. So we need to find out what it is that's breaking down calcium stores in the first place, to the extent that more than one in three British women now suffers from osteoporosis.

The most important culprit is almost certainly the overconsumption of protein. High-protein foods such as meat, eggs and dairy make excessive demands on the kidneys, which in turn leach calcium from the body. One solution, then, isn't to increase our calcium intake, but to reduce our consumption of protein, so our bones don't have to surrender so much calcium. Astonishingly, according to this newer, more critical view, dairy products almost certainly help to cause, rather than prevent, osteoporosis.

Consider this: American women are among the biggest consumers of calcium in the world, yet still have one of the highest levels of osteoporosis in the world. "
"

* whole (interesting) article here *

Soy milk has an equal amount of protein, less saturated fat, and no cholesterol.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Oh.. There is lots of information on the web site maintained by the Department of Nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health.. Here's the page on proteins.

 

[Krustee]

 

[vancity_cowboy]

one thing my daddy used to tell me - there's none of us getting out of this world alive

 

[johnperb]

Bijou, Skim Milk has 0% fat yet it most of the nutrients are still in the milk. In fact, it's a better choice for vitamins versus say OJ which is just straight sugar (but a good morning sugar rush). But I do understand the ethical argument on milk. You can buy organic milk for a pretty good price nowadays

Soy does have benefits but most Soy Milk is Soy Beverage and is high in sugar. I've also read that high intake of soy can increase breast cancer risks for women.

Soy is the devil for men/woman stay away

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Bijou, Skim Milk has 0% fat yet it most of the nutrients are still in the milk. In fact, it's a better choice for vitamins versus say OJ which is just straight sugar (but a good morning sugar rush). But I do understand the ethical argument on milk. You can buy organic milk for a pretty good price nowadays

Soy does have benefits but most Soy Milk is Soy Beverage and is high in sugar. I've also read that high intake of soy can increase breast cancer risks for women.

I agree skim milk is better but I don't know many men who drink skim milk. But good for those who do. lol

I don't drink soy milk myself, unfortunately soy and me do not really go well together. lol Intolerance/sensitivity to soy.. I have also heard lots of bad things about soy, most recently related to GM (or is it GMO?) soy crops. Bad news. But I do love rice milk though and have been curious to try almond milk.


Organic is a pretty touchy subject.. Also, many meat products may be marketed as free range but unless you actually go to the farm itself and see with your own eyes what conditions the animals live in, very high chances that what we are buying isn't what we would imagine when we think ethical and free range ( http://www.humanemyth.org/ ) .


Milk can never really be ethical. Unless the calf dies of natural causes, drinking milk will always mean we've stolen it from the baby it was intended for. The whole idea of getting a cow pregnant repeatedly, taking her baby away at birth so we can have the milk for ourselves...and leaving the calf alone while we fatten him up for a few weeks before we eat him.... there is just no way to spin that scenario to make it seem ethical. What I'm writing might shock some but it's actually exactly what milk is about.


I wish we didn't grow up with meat and dairy being such a huge part of our diet because it makes it hard to change everything you've been used to! But I kind of feel like ultimately I have no choice because I feel it is so wrong. So I'm working my way to aligning my choices to match my beliefs. Some of it is easy (veal), some of it is hella hard (milk and cheese!). Soy/Rice milk do not cut it for coffee/tea! blech.

I'll get there...lol


In case you didn't notice, I think the last category (animals/ethical) should be part of the decision making process. It's just as important as health and environmental considerations IMO.

 

[Unpossible]

Organic is a pretty touchy subject.. Also, many meat products may be marketed as free range but unless you actually go to the farm itself and see with your own eyes what conditions the animals live in, very high chances that what we are buying isn't what we would imagine when we think ethical and free range ( http://www.humanemyth.org/ ) .

If you are looking for ethical meat go to a halal butcher.

According to the muslim religion:

* Animal must be alive and healthy at time of slaughter (no downers)
* Slaughter must be done in quickest, most painless method: cutting the jugular, carotid artery and windpipe in one single motion
* Animal must not be stunned or abused prior to slaughter (such abuse would render the animal “dead,” disobeying the first rule)
* Animals must not be fed anything containing meat (grass and grain fed)

 

[JFF009]

I, personally, hate pork because I've always found it way too dry.

If this is the case you don't cook it properly.

 

[Very Veronica]

The affluent North American diet (animal protein & processed food heavy) is killing us while food (used in the loosest sense) manufacturers laugh all the way to the bank, controlling public health policy/gov't along the way. Lots of information out there to help you sort through the politics, ethics and science of food/nutrition and how best to spend your almighty consumer dollars/votes.

http://www.amazon.com/Fast-Food-Nation-Dark-All-American/dp/0060938455

http://www.amazon.com/Food-Inc-Eric-Schlosser/dp/B0027BOL4G

http://www.amazon.ca/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100660

http://www.michaelpollan.com/

'Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.' Michael Pollan

Oh and leave the pigs alone!

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[edmontonsubbie]

It was an interesting veer into the "ethics" of food production. I am sure the vegans have similar horror stories about the means of raising planty life. I didn't follow a single link but I am grateful for the time taken to post them. Basically, I am lazy. I just want the synopsis.

As for pigs, there seem to be two competing views. One from kimhoney citing the pork producers (and making it clear about that potential bias) and...an admonishment from VV to "leave the pigs alone". I am guessing that Veronica's point is simply that pigs are cute?

As for the "ethics" surrounding any of this....I will leave that to the next generation. I only have a wish to do the very best that I can with what is available to me. That is a bit defeatist, but I am at a stage where the best contribution I can make to this world, is to live my life as healthily (is that a word?) as possible, thereby prolonging my own existence and quality thereof, as well as setting an unstated example to the ones who actually give a fuck what I do.

I live urban. I don't drive. I haven't a choice, I simply don't have the option now. So...whatever I do...or whatever I need....I obtain either by foot, pedal, taxi, or friend. It is kind of cool the health benefits resulting from not having a choice in the matter....and I enjoy the creativity it requires of myself. Although sucking up diesel fumes on the way back up from Victoria was shitty. Everytime I ride one of those "parallel" paths to a major vehicular artery....I think....fuck, we can spend $500 million on a single Anthony Henday interchange....but, we can't...or won't...spend $100 million to make a path network that would be the envy of the world. But, that's just bitching. I would run for office but my background would never withstand it. Far too many skeletons for my opponents to defeat me with. Besides, I am thinking I would get uber annoyed at the "gamesmanship" of such a pursuit. Best I just continue to plan my 12 hole golf course retirement.

thank you for all of the interesting contributions to this thread,

eddie.

 

[Very Veronica]

I am guessing that Veronica's point is simply that pigs are cute?

Not exactly. Click on the links i posted previously if you dare to know more or just rent Food, Inc.

<embed src="http://www.petatv.com/swf/video.swf?v=mym_pigs_high" quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="255" height="195" allowScriptAccess="always"></embed>

more about pigs, follow the links http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming_pigs.asp

 

[edmontonsubbie]

I give....truly. I hate following the links that show me the heartlessness of our species. Based on your rebuttal, and the bit that I know of this world, pork is off the menu. I feel myself descending into homegrown veganism.....arrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhh.

Having said that, I can't think that will be a bad example for my babies. And, really, that's all I give a rip about. Well, other than my "mythical" little girl across the avenue....still no one has showed up to pick up the ball. It remains there in it's surlyn coated whiteness...quite unnatural.

Thank you for the clarification of your position on that matter VV, noted and appreciated.

respectfully,

eddie

 

[shynet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4
judge for yourself

 

[shynet]

the way to go richter

 

[Unpossible]

Horrific videos. Just one of the reasons I'm a vegetarian.

Why not raise your own meat?

 

[Harmony-bc]

It is very hard to eat ethically. I suggest buying a good vegetarian cook book and experimenting with dishes and sauces, so that you will have options.

10 years ago or so, I was in a relationship with a part time muslim guy, lol. (I say part time cause he was muslim when it suited him) I haven't eaten pork since then. Its been 2/3 years for cows, and I have never eaten other animals. I decided to just eat sea food and birds. A year ago, I met a duck, so duck is off the menu. I try really hard to avoid eating chicken and if I do, I ask questions about it, picking the most humane choice. I will not eat chicken in a restaurant at all. I only eat vegetarian when I go out. I do 90% of my shopping at health food stores, as I prefer to eat organic. They have done studies which support pesticides used for vegetable growing cause HDD in children.

I avoid dairy because of the horrible inhumane ways dairy cows and their calves are treated. Soy milk in men can cause breast growth and have other hormonal problems with both sexes. Soy milk is also highly processed with tons of additives. Men generally should not eat a lot of Tofu, but once in a while it is good for you. Tofu It is especially good for women because it balances our estrogen. My mom ate it non stop when menopause approached. Rice milk is ok, but I find almond milk is the yummiest.

I don't understand why people eat pigs at all. They are cute, funny, and just as smart as dogs. Its a sad, world we live in.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

I didn't follow a single link but I am grateful for the time taken to post them. Basically, I am lazy. I just want the synopsis.

With all due respect Eddie, I think that is what most people say. The problem with that though, is that unless you actually take the time to do the research, the reading and the critical thinking yourself, you'll never know who's interests are represented by those who are providing your synopsis. That is one thing every single person has to do themselves. There is so much false information, propaganda and so much at stake for those who are banking on people's tendency to take the information that is fed to them as the truth.


There's a lot of money at stake on one side. But on the other, there's our planet, ourselves and future generations, and also intelligent, emotional, living and breathing beings we use and abuse and modify genetically so that they are fatter, quicker and maximize profits for big corporations who don't care about you or the animals they treat in the most horrible ways.


Our responsibility as humans and resident of this planet is to seek out information and make truly educated choices. Failing to do so, and making unethical or wrong choices isn't justified by simply claiming lack of facts or knowledge if the only reason for not having those facts is for lack of trying. The info IS all out there. This is not a subject where synopsis are possible and having those links provided like in this thread IS the short cut. Maybe it's not a 4 line synopsis but it's at least pointing you in the right direction IMO.

As for the "ethics" surrounding any of this....I will leave that to the next generation. I only have a wish to do the very best that I can with what is available to me. That is a bit defeatist, but I am at a stage where the best contribution I can make to this world, is to live my life as healthily (is that a word?) as possible, thereby prolonging my own existence and quality thereof, as well as setting an unstated example to the ones who actually give a fuck what I do.

Yes that is defeatist and pretty selfish. This planet is going to shit, and fast. Your generation has done more damage to it than any other in the past. We are living longer, and unwillingess to make changes that will improve and change the state of things as well as where we are all heading, futher "screws" generations to come.

More people = bad.
More people living longer = worse.

Not attacking you but trying to point out that is a pretty shitty way of seeing things and not fair at all.

* Slaughter must be done in quickest, most painless method: cutting the jugular, carotid artery and windpipe in one single motion
* Animal must not be stunned or abused prior to slaughter (such abuse would render the animal “dead,” disobeying the first rule)

So basically the animal MUST be fully awake and conscious to witness his own bleeding to death?

Awesome!!!!

I guess I'll have to take their word that death by having your jugular cut and then bleeding to death is the "quickest, most painless" way to go. Personally though, I think I'd still prefer not to test it out myself to see if I agree with that or not. I'm pretty sure any animal capable of feeling pain, stress or fear would likely choose to avoid that situation altogether like me. Just saying...