Where is the academic evidence to suggest the Nordic Model doesn't work?

Violet

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It certainly appears that the model has been successful at decreasing the level of trafficked women and children, for instance.
If this is the case, it is entirely possible that it has little or nothing to do with the law making purchasing sexual services a crime. During the same period that the law criminalizing the purchase of sexual services has been in place, the anti-trafficking laws in Sweden have also evolved, becoming stricter and more heavily enforced. This alone could result in a reduction in trafficking.

Many measures to reduce trafficking have been put in place, for example: foreign victims of trafficking are granted temporary residence permits for a 30-day or more period with health care and social assistance during which they are encouraged to cooperate with LE or else face deportation; the government in Sweden adopted a national action plan on child sexual exploitation, improved awareness on trafficking issues, and increased internal and international cooperation to combat sex tourism; they fund awareness programs both in Sweden and in trafficking "source" countries as well as organizations that provide rehabilitation, health care, job training, and legal assistance; and so on.

There may very well be some good aspects of some of the prostitution laws and policies and how they are implemented/enforced in countries like Sweden, but that does not mean all their prostitution laws are good. Unfortunately it is very easy for groups with an agenda to portray all the positive outcomes as being due specifically to the criminalization of clients.

There is some research showing negative outcomes in things like safety, health and working conditions. I think, as someone else mentioned, this may be what many people mean when they say the Nordic or Swedish model "doesn't work" - that it is not good for people, especially SPs.

If a group or government's main goal is to simply reduce the number of prostitutes and the measure of a legal model "working" is defined primarily by reduction in prostitution (in the number of prostitutes and/or clients) that is extremely misguided. In addition it is a very difficult thing to measure. It is totally unsurprising that the Swedish govt's research found that less men admit to purchasing sex now and fewer prostitutes are visible on the street. IMO it is nuts to automatically assume that means less prostitution is actually going on.

One can create a study that will conclude or imply almost anything, and the studies that are getting the most funding, publication and media attention are of course going to be ones that are make it look like the government are doing a great job with their relatively recent and unusual prostitution laws.

Another thing is that Sweden is very different from Canada, even if their legal system in Sweden was generally beneficial or effective that does not mean it would have the same effects in Canada. Consider, just as one example, that in Sweden at the time the anti-client law was enacted there were only an estimated ~2,500 prostitutes in Sweden - most estimates on the number of prostitutes just here in Vancouver are greater than that! Remember also that Sweden's official position on prostitution is that it is violence against women. To me, this is the opposite of feminism and denies agency to women, implying that those who are SPs by choice and fine with that as mentally ill victims. (Do non-female prostitutes have agency simply because they are not female?).

Comparisons of the "Nordic Model" to a number of other models (some exist but I haven't personally found a great one yet) might give a little bit better picture, as opposed to the most often cited comparison of Sweden pre 1999 and post 1999. Results considered positive in the latter simply mean that their current law may be better on those measures than the one they had previously. It does not show that it is better than our current or last laws in Canada.

By the way, does anyone even know exactly what the laws regarding prostitution even were in Sweden prior to "The Ban Against the Purchase of Sexual Services" enacted in 1999? I am having a tough time finding that out!

Sorry this is so long! :)
 

susi

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yes, new zealand's model is what we are hoping for. decriminalization, we do not need two sets of laws to punish violence against people. and a youth/ child is not a "prostitute". the problem with prostitution charges re:youth is that the youth is then branded "prostitute" and must live with it for the rest of their lives. if a child is exploited or sexually interfered with why can we not call it what it is...? rape, unlawful confinement, etc.

so we would hope for removal of all criminal code provisions related to prostitution and then protection under the criminal code as other canadians enjoy as well as protection of labor law, the benefits of occupational health and safety training ( www.tradesecretsguide.blogspot.com) and all of the privileges/ problems associated with other legitimate occupations.

this is sort of what happened in new zealand. they passed the prostitution reform act which established some standards for the industry. i think there is value to that as well here in canada....

in the end what we need is a canadian model .....
 

HankQuinlan

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Is there any other example -- anything at all -- where something that is perfectly legal when it is done for free could be considered a crime when money changes hands?
 

bcneil

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Is there any other example -- anything at all -- where something that is perfectly legal when it is done for free could be considered a crime when money changes hands?
Giving a baby up for adoption is legal. Selling the baby is not.

Selling your own kidney....
 

hornygandalf

Active member
Giving a baby up for adoption is legal. Selling the baby is not.

Selling your own kidney....
How about surrogate motherhood? Is that paid for, or just 'expenses' paid?

I think the emphasis in the legislation needs to be on safety, along with the right of individuals to make their own decisions and live their lives in whatever way they want, as long as it isn't bringing harm to themselves or others. Does a Conservative government really want to be in the business of regulating individual business transactions between consenting adults? Ideologically, decriminalization appears to be the natural choice for an economically conservative government. But, they have a large voter base who are morally conservative that wants criminalization instead. What needs to be presented is that they can both crack down on trafficking and exploitation (which they have in fact done with the tightening of the immigration regulations), while decriminalizing and creating safer working conditions for the major portion of the industry. Other issues can be dealt with at the municipal level in terms of licensing (though there are also potential problems with that as well).
 
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hornygandalf

Active member
yes, new zealand's model is what we are hoping for. decriminalization...

...this is sort of what happened in new zealand. they passed the prostitution reform act which established some standards for the industry. i think there is value to that as well here in canada....

in the end what we need is a canadian model .....
Great. So what can we learn from the New Zealand example (and point to them frequently to show a system that works without an increase in numbers or trafficking, apparently), and then make it better for the Canadian situation?
 

Violet

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No need to apologize Violet. This is a topic that deserves longer posts.
I think you are right that it may have been other measures introduced along with the model that resulted in lower levels of trafficking, and I believe there are laws in place in Canada to also minimize that. So, I take back my comment (which you highlighted).
:)

I think the emphasis in the legislation needs to be on safety, along with the right of individuals to make their own decisions and live their lives in whatever way they want, as long as it isn't bringing harm to themselves or others.
I disagree. I think the right to make one's own decisions and live one's life in whatever way one chooses is in opposition to not being allowed to bring harm to oneself. I generally think people should be allowed to do things that are potentially harmful to themselves - as long as they aren't directly harming others (of course "harm" is totally subjective so it can be murky). The anti-prostitution agenda is based on the premise that it is inherently harmful to prostitutes (*which I don't agree with of course). Many things that can be dangerous or harmful are perfectly legal: driving a car, smoking cigarettes, eating unhealthy food, working as a deep sea fisherman, whatever. Life is inherently risky. A form of regulation of prostitution that tried to minimize the possibility of SPs/clients harming themselves would in itself cause harm and unreasonably limit our freedom to make our own choices about what we do with our bodies. And usually such systems end up being especially unfair to the SPs and geared to the (supposed) protection of the clients and general public instead, like in Nevada.

As for drawing a distinction between prostitution and things like selling babies or kidneys, that is a tough one. I guess the situation with babies or kidneys can sometimes be akin to SPs that are ostensibly paid for "companionship only". But in spite of my above comments on being allowed to harm oneself, I do think it's good that it's not legal to outright sell one's organs or baby. I'm not sure how to articulate why I feel it's different from someone being allowed to have sex for money or pay money for sex. I guess I feel like the risk of harm is much lower for prostitution and sex itself is so much more prevalent, sex is something most people already do, whereas donating organs or giving children up for adoption/surrogate motherhood are far far rarer things. I don't really see them as being similar.

There are also certain plants that are legal to grow and possess but not legal to sell for human consumption. Personally I think they should be. But it's still not quite analogous to selling sex, as it's a physical product as opposed to a service. I can't currently think of another widespread human activity that only becomes illegal when money is involved. The most absurd thing to me is that porn is legal - in fact a huge industry in the US, where prostitution is illegal in most places. That makes no sense! Just because you are being videoed and the person paying you is not usually the person you're having sex with that somehow makes it dramatically different? :frusty:
 

HankQuinlan

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:)
I disagree. I think the right to make one's own decisions and live one's life in whatever way one chooses is in opposition to not being allowed to bring harm to oneself. I generally think people should be allowed to do things that are potentially harmful to themselves - as long as they aren't directly harming others (of course "harm" is totally subjective so it can be murky). The anti-prostitution agenda is based on the premise that it is inherently harmful to prostitutes (*which I don't agree with of course). Many things that can be dangerous or harmful are perfectly legal: driving a car, smoking cigarettes, eating unhealthy food, working as a deep sea fisherman, whatever. Life is inherently risky. A form of regulation of prostitution that tried to minimize the possibility of SPs/clients harming themselves would in itself cause harm and unreasonably limit our freedom to make our own choices about what we do with our bodies. And usually such systems end up being especially unfair to the SPs and geared to the (supposed) protection of the clients and general public instead, like in Nevada.

As for drawing a distinction between prostitution and things like selling babies or kidneys, that is a tough one. I guess the situation with babies or kidneys can sometimes be akin to SPs that are ostensibly paid for "companionship only". But in spite of my above comments on being allowed to harm oneself, I do think it's good that it's not legal to outright sell one's organs or baby. I'm not sure how to articulate why I feel it's different from someone being allowed to have sex for money or pay money for sex. I guess I feel like the risk of harm is much lower for prostitution and sex itself is so much more prevalent, sex is something most people already do, whereas donating organs or giving children up for adoption/surrogate motherhood are far far rarer things. I don't really see them as being similar.

There are also certain plants that are legal to grow and possess but not legal to sell for human consumption. Personally I think they should be. But it's still not quite analogous to selling sex, as it's a physical product as opposed to a service. I can't currently think of another widespread human activity that only becomes illegal when money is involved. The most absurd thing to me is that porn is legal - in fact a huge industry in the US, where prostitution is illegal in most places. That makes no sense! Just because you are being videoed and the person paying you is not usually the person you're having sex with that somehow makes it dramatically different? :frusty:
I totally agree with everything you said; my reasoning on selling body parts is similar -- can't quite say why you wouldn't have the right to sell a kidney, but it still seems wrong. Porn is legal, by the way, because "freedom of artistic expression" is pretty much been protected by the courts in most countries. Maybe if dates with an SP could be "private performances"? Just another reason why laws against prostitution make no sense.
 

hornygandalf

Active member
:)
I disagree. I think the right to make one's own decisions and live one's life in whatever way one chooses is in opposition to not being allowed to bring harm to oneself. I generally think people should be allowed to do things that are potentially harmful to themselves - as long as they aren't directly harming others (of course "harm" is totally subjective so it can be murky). ...
... The most absurd thing to me is that porn is legal - in fact a huge industry in the US, where prostitution is illegal in most places. That makes no sense! Just because you are being videoed and the person paying you is not usually the person you're having sex with that somehow makes it dramatically different? :frusty:
I'm not going to rebut or dispute what you are saying. You make some good, well-argued points. :) I'm still figuring out where the limits should be in my own mind.
Committing suicide (or attempting to) is not a criminal act in Canada (though aiding and abetting is), so why should other acts that may lead to self-harm be illegal? I think I was thinking in the extreme rather than in degrees (which would be where smoking comes in for instance). That also raises the issue of what other drugs (I'm looking at nicotine as just one form of drug) should be legalized. But, that is a different issue.

The porn example is actually a good one to use in this instance. Shows the inconsistencies.
 

Tugela

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I'm not going to rebut or dispute what you are saying. You make some good, well-argued points. :) I'm still figuring out where the limits should be in my own mind.
Committing suicide (or attempting to) is not a criminal act in Canada (though aiding and abetting is), so why should other acts that may lead to self-harm be illegal? I think I was thinking in the extreme rather than in degrees (which would be where smoking comes in for instance). That also raises the issue of what other drugs (I'm looking at nicotine as just one form of drug) should be legalized. But, that is a different issue.

The porn example is actually a good one to use in this instance. Shows the inconsistencies.
Porn is self harm? I guess if you believe it leads to blindness..... :)
 

hornygandalf

Active member
Porn is self harm? I guess if you believe it leads to blindness..... :)
Ahhh... not what I was suggesting (although it has an addictive angle to it that could harm other aspects of your life).
I was referring to the bit that said:
"Just because you are being videoed and the person paying you is not usually the person you're having sex with that somehow makes it dramatically different?" (from above)
So, if you pay to video-tape your encounter, you can then claim it is porn and it becomes legal?
 

Fred Zed

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Once Again: Why the Nordic Model is Bad

http://blog.terrijeanbedford.com/2014/02/28/once-again-why-the-nordic-model-is-bad/


Once Again: Why the Nordic Model is Bad
Posted on 2014/02/28
Laws supposedly meant to protect sex workers by penalizing only so-called pimps and clients, and not sex workers, will replicate the harms and illegalities of the laws just struck down and may not survive the courts. The other countries did not have our recent court ruling on what makes laws themselves right or wrong.

That ruling makes the Nordic Model wrong. There are several things wrong with the Nordic Model. Here are a few of them.


(1) Anti-pimping laws criminalize anyone who shares in a sex worker’s earnings, including her husband, other family members and friends. Police can harass or threaten people around her who they may wish to suspect as an associate.


(2) The laws even form a barrier to sex workers who wish to marry and or leave the business for other reasons. A husband becomes legally vulnerable, even if he shares the household expenses. Women who support their husbands in whole or in part in other occupations, and, yet, no one passes laws against living off the proceeds of their work. Why are sex workers singled out from women in other occupations? That singling out is not legal after the recent court decision.

(3) The Nordic approach also makes sex workers less safe. Pimps often provide services for and protection to sex workers. For example, they drive women to appointments, wait in the car, and know when to worry if the woman does not return. They copy down the license plates of cars into which street walkers climb, which provides some safeguard against the women simply disappearing. (4) Laws against clients endanger sex workers on the street. These women are the most vulnerable of sex workers because they lack the safety of working indoors and non-violent men are far more likely to be afraid of and discouraged by the prospect of being arrested than are psychopaths. This is especially true of family men or those who have a respected position in their communities. A minister, a lawyer, a teacher, a psychologist or a doctor have a great deal to lose by being arrested and having the arrest publicized, so are reluctant to take the risk.


(5) There will not necessarily be fewer women selling sex, however, especially on the street level where driving forces like drug-use keep the numbers high. With a smaller pool of customers for whom to compete, these women may act with less caution; for example, they may be more willing to get into cars they might otherwise not get into. On the other hand, there will be as many physically abusive men and criminals in the client pool because a person who is willing to beat or to kill a sex worker is unlikely to be discouraged by the possibility of a minor charge of buying sex. The preferred clients have moved to the Internet, but the dangerous ones stayed on the streets.

(6) Those on the streets work in risky conditions because they go further into remote areas. Under the Nordic Model they have to do the negotiation very quickly. It doesn’t give them any time to assess risk. The quick negotiation will also result from a client’s unwillingness to linger a moment longer than necessary.


(7) It is currently common practice for sex workers to screen their clients in advance to seeing them. They know the client’s name and phone number. Under the Nordic Model, however, clients have more incentive to remain anonymous rather than risk arrest. Sex workers will have to accept calls from blocked numbers and won’t know who they are seeing. So much for the Nordic Model.

(8) There is no indication that the Nordic Model, as being considered for Canada at present, would adequately define what are not permissible acts between consenting adults in private for money or not, and so the law will fail for that alone.

(9) I could go on and on, but enough for now.
 

Miss*Bijou

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I'm kind of glad this thread has been pinned because it seems like we have had this discussion many times already...but maybe I've just been here too long. lol

Anyway, lots of good links already posted by others that I won't re-post. But I'll add a few.


I always post a link to Laura Agustin when the subject comes up. Her blog is the best ressource IMO. On these two, she specifically links to several of her articles/blog posts challenging the claim that the Nordic model works etc:

http://www.lauraagustin.com/ban-on-...d-combat-prostitution-says-swedish-evaluation

http://www.lauraagustin.com/nordic-models-laws-criminalising-the-purchase-of-sex




Some quotes:



What you will not find are quantitative, definitive, bottom-line debunkings of abolitionist and anti-prostitutionist claims. Those don’t exist, they cannot exist, and anyone who says they can is spinning a line. There’s widespread disagreement about how to define trafficking and who is a victim of it, so when you see numbers you should immediately be skeptical. Sometimes ideology is at the bottom of large figures for victims.

...

When someone asks for ‘the most reliable statistics on the effect of the Swedish Model of prostitution criminalisation’, they are assuming those exist somewhere. To understand why they do not exist, look at critiques of the government evaluation of its law. They were unable to evaluate it, they didn’t know how, I wouldn’t know how either, so no conclusions can be drawn from the evaluation. There are only claims.

http://www.lauraagustin.com/nordic-models-laws-criminalising-the-purchase-of-sex




Doubtful report on sex-purchase law
Laura Agustín and Louise Persson



Sex crimes go down in Sweden: The new evaluation of the law against buying sex is spreading the message round the world, but the report suffers from too many scientific errors to justify any such claim.

The report was delayed. It is hard to find evidence to explain why one can’t see sex workers where one saw them before: Have they stopped selling sex, or are they doing it somewhere else? Stigmatised and criminalised people avoid contact with police, social workers and researchers.

Street prostitution receives exaggerated attention in the inquiry, despite the fact that it represents a small, diminishing type of commercial sex that cannot be extrapolated to all. The inquiry mentions the difficulty of researching ‘prostitution on the internet’ but appears not to know that the sex industry comes in many different shapes being researched in depth elsewhere (escorts without websites, sex parties, strip clubs, massage parlours, students who sell sex, among others).

The report’s conclusion that the law has decreased prostitution is based on police reports, government-funded groups working on prostitution in three cities, a few small academic studies and comparisons with other Nordic countries. But police only encounter sex workers in the context of criminal inquiries, the funded groups mostly meet sex workers seeking help, small studies can only indicate possible trends and the Danish statistics on the number of ‘active’ street workers – used to show that Sweden’s prostitution is less – were publicly shown to be very wrong eight months ago.

The law is claimed to have a dampening effect on sex trafficking, but no proof is offered. Trafficking statistics have long been disputed outside Sweden, because of definitional confusion and refusals to accept the UN Convention on Organised Crime’s distinction between human trafficking and human smuggling linked to informal labour migration. The report claims the law diminishes ‘organised crime’ without analysing how crimes were identified and resolved or how they are related to the sex-purchase law.

All social research must explain its methodology. An evaluation like this one needs to provide details on the sample of people consulted, since even in a field as small as Sweden’s no study can pretend to speak to everyone. Methodological research norms require explaining how informants were consulted, under what conditions, what questions they were asked and how, what ethical apparatus was in place to help guarantee they gave their true opinions, how a balance of different stakeholders was achieved, how many people refused to participate, and so on. In this report, however, the methodology section is practically non-existent. We know nothing about how it the evaluation was actually carried out.

On the other hand, the report brims with irrelevant material: background on how the law came about, Sweden’s history with gender equality, why prostitution is bad, why international audiences are interested in the evaluation and how many Swedes are said to currently support the law. One single sex worker’s sad personal story takes up three pages, while the account of sex workers’ opinions is limited to the results of a survey of only 14 people of which only seven were current sex workers.

Research must try for some kind of objectivity, but the government’s remit to the evaluation team said that ‘the buying of sexual services shall continue to be criminalised’ no matter what the evaluators found. The bias was inherent.

The Swedish government understands that the law is of interest internationally as a form of crime prevention. What they don’t realise is how, when the report is translated and reviewed, the methodological errors and crude bias will cause researchers in the field to dismiss this evaluation.

The international trafficking debate has moved beyond the simplistic position presented in this report. More humility is needed from a small country with little experience of, and research about, undocumented migration and the sex industry. If one wants to present oneself as occupying a higher moral ground than other countries, one needs to do better work to understand complex questions. This evalution tells us nothing about the effects of the sex-purchase law.








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