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W5: How far would you go to save your child?

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westcoast555

He should have just threatened the guy.. killing him is going too far. You can't just murder people.
 

tokugawa

Member
Sep 8, 2005
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If you watch the W5 program in it's entirety you'll find how sad this story really was. The daughter's best friend on the one hand wrote a letter and pleaded with the parents to get help for their troubled daughter who was slowly dying from addiction. When that same daughter is returned back to the family by health authorities, the same teenage friend then drives the troubled daughter back to the drug dealing boyfriend after being summoned by the daughter. Talk about stupidity of a 17 year old girl. Now in her 20s she's a mother to 3 young kids!

Then you have the drug dealer's little brother pissed mad about his drug dealing older brother being killed by the father saying that it was nothing but cold blooded murder. This is funny since the victim was a drug dealer! I mean how many people was he responsible for killing or helping ruin lives.

Listen I am not defending murder here but it's sad due to a couple of screwed up people, you have a decent guy who happened to have been pushed to the brink now serving time in prison.
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
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jesuschrist

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Aug 26, 2007
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Premeditated Murder. It doesn't matter how he justifies it. Sometimes I just love the way the media screams that "something must be done" and then turns around and screams that society shouldn't jail a murderer because of some convoluted logic. Anyone capable of deliberately killing a person when that person is not directly threatening them is a murderer and is fully capable of doing it again. What happens if he is let off and finds a reason to kill another person? Does the media scream because a murderer was let off and killed another person?
"Anyone capable of deliberately killing a person when that person is not directly threatening them is a murderer" - I agree.
"...is fully capable of doing it again" - I somewhat agree.

Yes, he is a murderer. But frankly that's just a label. He killed another murderer to save his daughter's life from being destroyed. He knew he would go to jail for a long time. So in other words, he sacrificed his own life for his daughter. Good for him, good for this murderer. He is a good man. And because he is a good man, I don't think he would do it again.

The law as you frame it, and as it is framed for us, numbs the natural understanding of ethics and justice. We become unable to think for ourselves and instead rely upon some codification of rules to tell us the difference between right and wrong, good and bad.
 

jesuschrist

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Aug 26, 2007
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There is no grey area when you deliberately, with planning, take another person's life. Grey is reserved for self defense, walked into house and found wife having sex with best friend, drunk as a skunk and killed a person driving home - not planned murder.
Yup I agree. He planned it, he went through with it, he's a murderer. Like I said, it's only a label. The larger question is not answered by what your point here.

The reason we have governments, the reason we have rule of law is because when government fails to, or can't act to protect it's citizens - we get what happened in New Orleans after Katrina. When we allow people to say "I'm the exception, I don't have to respect the law" - we get what happened in New Orleans after Katrina. We only have a very thin veneer over our barbaric nature. If we don't want to all have to fort up, if we don't all want to have to carry arms with us - we must require our government to impose justice and not impose justice ourselves.
So we have governments to have a rule of law to protect our citizens. Ok, where was the rule of law to protect his daughter? It was at least another day away. His daughter was dying, she was being killed by another murderer. She was helpless to save herself. He decided to save his daughter by murdering the drug dealer.

The rule of law protected nobody in this case. In this case, the rule of law gets to be applied after the fact and it was natural law and real ethics that guided the actions of the father, and thus protected society. And because the rule of law is applied after, it can't be used to protect but only be used to determine guilt and what punishment. Guilt is easy, it's just a matter of establishing if he did it, and with how much intent. But punishment is then applied by what basis? By the basis of observance of its own rules for the purpose of "protecting society", or for the purpose of recognizing that natural human ethics was the force being applied here?

If you observe the video, the courts actually applied the latter (natural human ethics) in the punishment - though they had to go through a veneer of law (not a "veneer of our barbaric nature", as you say) to get there. In the end, though they could not let him go completely free, they did what they could and reduced his sentence to the absolute minimum possible, even to the outrage of some in the community. I only wish they would have bended the law further and revoked his criminal record upon finishing his sentence.

I think you blindly applied understanding of the law in this case. As I explained it, it worked better and differently than you stated.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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However, no matter what sort of person the victim was, the daughter chose to be with him and chose to destroy herself. The father does not have the right to kill the victim because HIS daughter chose to follow a path of self destruction and he was unable to dissuade her to change course.

He can intervene with his daughter, he can defend her if she is attacked, but he CANNOT go and seek out the person he thinks is responsible and kill them if his appeals to his daughter are not successfull. Essentially what he did was shock his daughter into listening by committing a brutal and heinous act. And in the process has probably planted deep seeds of guilt into her, and a fundamental level she will be blaming herself for all the bad things that have happened to everyone in this case.

If he is not punished you are going to have every Tom Dick and Harry taking the law into their own hands on the grounds that it is socially permissable.

And I disagree with people who think that this guy is not a danger, he will totally do it again and next time his threshold of what constitutes a threat to his family or whatever will be much lower. It is the same principle as the predator that becomes a man-eater - once they have tasted blood and got away with it they will become a permanent threat.
 

the old maxx50

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Dec 22, 2010
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There ia another part of this story ..
What caused the daughter to just go wild ... From reportedly being this loving , the best daughter that parents could hope for to a drug and sex crazy teen .. what was the reason for that ....

I know i had a opinionated father and what some would call strict .. i never got i to any of that stuff .. was not a follower .. an my sister may have want to do what she wanted but knew there would be shit to pay .. and any guy she was involve. got her in to drugs . or even sex .. we never really knew what my dad might do but it would not be good ( yes that is another problem families have ) ,, she had one real boy friend and she got married at 19 .. still married 38 yrs later ..

Now i have know a number of families where their daughter . does go the same way .. and i know a number of escorts that . also come from a similar back ground as do many of you . So what make some one want to ignore all the rules or just common sense and go wild and don't care about the consequences .. I may have gone off a bit my self in my mid life but i still know what i am doing and why,, and that there are.
consequences ..

Did this girl not have any idea of what her father was capable of.? Or what her boy friend was capable of?

AS for the drug dealer boy friend that the police said they did all they could .. Is this going to turn out to another one of those cases where the drug dealer was immune from police harassment and prosecution because he was an informer .. There had to be some reason why he seemed to be operating so openly , if that was the case ...
 

Flanders

Chronic User
Jun 16, 2011
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I'm no fan of drug dealers, and the fact that his place was a "know hangout" with "endless supply of drugs" points out the obvious mess tha results when laws are built around reforming the perps, and perps rights overriding victim's rights etc. A lot fucked up here.

What is really interesting in it's absence so far is the question "Did he actually save his daughter? Or make things worse?" If I wasn't so lazy, I'd link up the post where Texan Baddass Daddy is shooting his daughter's laptop. No way in hell your daughter switched from charming young lady to pshycho party gal without something lacking fundamentally in the first place. Again, the father takes no responsibility for their kid, rather is looking outward to place the blame...

The lack of parental responsibility bothers me much worse than the killing of a scumbag drug dealer. Even though the actions taken are final for drugdealer, with no garunteed benefit for daughter. This situation wouldn't have happened if the police/justice system hadn't been such a dismal failure in the 1st place.
 
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