Vancouver housing bubble burst...look to China

lenny

girls just wanna have fu
May 20, 2004
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http://vancouversun.com/opinion/col...vancouvers-housing-bubble-burst-look-to-china

"No question is more on the minds of Metro Vancouver homeowners and renters than how and when the region’s housing bubble could burst.

After stratospheric escalation, a punctured bubble would be disaster for hundreds of thousands of over-mortgaged homeowners. Yet it could bring relief to those desperate to get into housing.

Last summer’s B.C. government 15-per-cent tax on foreign buyers and the federal government’s stress test for mortgages have slowed the volume of sales in Metro Vancouver, particularly at the top end.

But, despite suggestions from a few voices in finance and real estate, the city’s bubble is intact: Prices remain at record highs after jumping by 40 to 60 per cent in two years.

Unaffordability continues to be a crisis, especially for the young. No meaningful link exists between the city’s tepid median wages and runaway real estate values.


The conventional wisdom is you can’t be sure you’re in a housing bubble until it bursts. Yet there is little doubt Metro Vancouver is extremely vulnerable to a free fall.

The Swiss Bank USB rates Metro real estate as the most likely to experience a sudden downward correction of 17 large cities, including London and Hong Kong. And the longer the bubble lasts the harder the crash.

China is key to Metro’s housing future

What is most likely to cause the bubble to rupture?

SFU urban studies professor Wu Qiyan, UBC geographer David Ley and others are most closely watching China, the fast-growing powerhouse of 1.4 billion people.

They make a convincing case that no other factor — including interest rates — is as important, as surveys showing 40 to 60 per cent of China’s wealthy individuals want to emigrate and buy housing in another country.

In 2016 China’s rich injected more than $33 billion into U.S., Australian, British and other global housing markets. We don’t know how much they bought in Canada because, as Ley said, this country ranks among the few “in the civilized world” that doesn’t publish foreign investment data.

Yet it’s clear the West Coast of Canada and the U.S. is the most popular destination for China’s elite, according to the Hurun Report. China is now a “fundamental” of Metro’s housing market, says Ley, author of Millionaire Migrants: Trans-Pacific Lifelines.

Even though Metro is small, the Hurun Index shows China’s moneyed class are more attracted to Metro than even large “gateway” cities such as Sydney, London and Singapore.

Metro’s housing market has long been tied to China’s economy. Our real estate prices have gone up and down in tandem with China’s fluctuating economy since the 1990s, according to data compiled by Bloomberg News.

China’s trans-national citizens are especially drawn to Metro Vancouver, Ley said, for its clean air, climate, trusted universities, relatively short flight times and existence of a Chinese-speaking community that makes up one fifth of the population.

Given the key role China’s wealth plays in Metro, the question both Wu and Ley ask is: Will the country’s hardline Communist leaders finally succeed in stopping the illicit flight of its capital?

All eyes should be on China’s new edict, which began Jan. 1, say Wu and Ley. Will it be more effective than others? It demands a written pledge that yuan converted into U.S. dollars will not be used to buy property overseas. It also creates a government black list and harsher penalties for violators.

“If China can control the outflow of its currency — and keep it to only $50,000 US per person a year — it would greatly impact the housing market in Metro Vancouver,” said Wu.

“I think this … crackdown will be much more strictly enforced and will be longer lasting,” adds Victor Shih, of the University of California, San Diego, who researches the impact of elite networks in China.

China’s Ministry of Commerce reported this week that Chinese investment in offshore property has fallen sharply since last year. But Chua Han Teng, of Fitch’s BMI Research in Singapore, said “I think the impact (of capital controls) is probably limited.” China’s financial systems are porous and there is still, he said, “a great desire for people to try to bring their money out.”

It’s likely the latest restrictions will mostly make it difficult for middle- and upper-middle-class Chinese to transfer money out, Ley said.

But the problem for Metro Vancouver is that China’s ultra-wealthy, including its billionaires, have probably already transferred much of their money to secret accounts, with the Panama Papers revealing Hong Kong as the most crucial hub for laundering capital to tax havens.

“The most important factor for Metro housing is whether capital keeps coming out of China,” Ley said.

“China has tried to block it before, but each time it keeps coming. As long as that capital keeps coming, I do not anticipate our bubble bursting.”

Interest rates could be secondary factor

Even though Ley puts great weight on China, he adds that rising interest rates could also play a role in a downturn.

British financial analysts, he said, have noted the country has the “cheapest mortgage rates in 300 years.”

They cannot last. “One day we will get cumulative rate increases,” he said, and they will affect overstretched Canadians as well as offshore investors.

Metro residents are among the most leveraged. The Bank of Canada reports hundreds of thousands of Metro households have indebtedness that exceeds their annual incomes by 150 to 450 per cent.

“It’s especially the people in the newer suburbs of Langley, Surrey and the Tri-Cities who are mortgaged up to the hilt,” Ley said.

Even though Metro Vancouver and Toronto residents have experienced housing bubbles that deflated since the 1980s, Ley believes most remain in denial. They haven’t paid attention to just how bad the subprime mortgage crash of 2008 was for Americans.

Millions of Americans not only lost their jobs, but their homes were foreclosed. Ley thinks their sense of betrayal fuelled the rise of populist President Donald Trump.

Ley is also convinced the outrage Metro residents felt over inflated housing prices was the political reason for Premier Christy Clark breaking out of her usual pro-foreign-investment stance and applying the 15-per-cent tax.

An Angus Reid poll revealed 90 per cent of Metro residents supported the move. That included most of those “profiting” on paper from the bubble, whom Ley said worried for the future for their children and grandchildren.

It appears the 15-per-cent tax may have had some impact on China’s elite.

The Hurun index reports China’s wealthy now rank Metro Vancouver sixth, instead of third, as the city they most want to emigrate to and buy dwellings in.

Los Angeles and San Francisco remain in first and second. Vancouver has been replaced by Seattle. New York and Boston fill the fourth and fifth spots.

But the 15-per-cent tax apparently did not puncture the bubble. One Metro Vancouver index reported housing prices began nudging up again in January.

Offshore investors, says Ley, recognize the purchase tax is not permanent. They note Clark has already relaxed the rules, making it possible for non-citizens who pay Canadian taxes to not pay it.

That means, for instance, 170,000 foreign students and non-permanent residents in B.C., more than one third of whom are from China, are again allowed to freely buy luxury or other homes in Metro as proxies for foreigners.

Some speculate the NDP would be tougher than Clark, whose party is politically indebted to the real-estate industry, at restricting offshore capital in order for Metro housing to return to some semblance of affordability.

But neither party has made crystal-clear promises about housing policy. So we won’t really know what will happen until after the May 9 B.C. election."

http://vancouversun.com/opinion/col...vancouvers-housing-bubble-burst-look-to-china
 

burcs

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Jun 26, 2014
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Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of the opinion column. Douglas Todd has been doing it forever but oftentimes the substance is lacking in the articles.

If there's ever a bubble in the Vancouver housing market, it'll only affect the high end homes (think 2+ million dollar), and the trickle down effect from it, while surely happening, will have minimal impact on beginner homes such as one/two bedroom condos. IMO there are a number of reasons that there will not be a bubble for beginner homes:
1) Foreign investors much prefer owning actual land, it's better perceived than condos that depreciate with no land.
2) Vancouver is an extremely attractive place for the renting demographic. There are a ton of foreign students from Asia, some of them are PRs that bring a lot of money with them. But in many cases they are normal international students here to learn English and/or other programs. Without looking at any data I'd put money that Vancouver is a top 3 place in the world for international students (I'd put Sydney/Melbourne and London up there too) because it's such a diverse city that they can still learn English while finding comforts from their home nation. International students aside, a lot of people from all over Canada, US, and Europe move here for the love of the outdoors. Most of these people are here either temporarily or are just beginning their career and can only afford to rent.
3) Vancouver is hesitant to densify. Condo prices are too high, and zoning prevents the supply side from growing the rate it should be.
4) Local investors are now purchasing condos rather than houses. As the price for SDH begins to taper from the last year or so, people are looking at buying a second condo rather than upgrade their existing home to that of a higher value, in fear of the high end homes bursting. The ability for them to afford a second condo is fueled by the hot rental market. If no one is willing to pay for rent, the condos would just sit empty and price would drop. But as long as Vancouver remains an attractive place to live and study, beginner homes will have a steady price.
 

sdw

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Jul 14, 2005
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Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of the opinion column. Douglas Todd has been doing it forever but oftentimes the substance is lacking in the articles.

If there's ever a bubble in the Vancouver housing market, it'll only affect the high end homes (think 2+ million dollar), and the trickle down effect from it, while surely happening, will have minimal impact on beginner homes such as one/two bedroom condos. IMO there are a number of reasons that there will not be a bubble for beginner homes:
1) Foreign investors much prefer owning actual land, it's better perceived than condos that depreciate with no land.
2) Vancouver is an extremely attractive place for the renting demographic. There are a ton of foreign students from Asia, some of them are PRs that bring a lot of money with them. But in many cases they are normal international students here to learn English and/or other programs. Without looking at any data I'd put money that Vancouver is a top 3 place in the world for international students (I'd put Sydney/Melbourne and London up there too) because it's such a diverse city that they can still learn English while finding comforts from their home nation. International students aside, a lot of people from all over Canada, US, and Europe move here for the love of the outdoors. Most of these people are here either temporarily or are just beginning their career and can only afford to rent.
3) Vancouver is hesitant to densify. Condo prices are too high, and zoning prevents the supply side from growing the rate it should be.
4) Local investors are now purchasing condos rather than houses. As the price for SDH begins to taper from the last year or so, people are looking at buying a second condo rather than upgrade their existing home to that of a higher value, in fear of the high end homes bursting. The ability for them to afford a second condo is fueled by the hot rental market. If no one is willing to pay for rent, the condos would just sit empty and price would drop. But as long as Vancouver remains an attractive place to live and study, beginner homes will have a steady price.
The main fault with Lenny's article is that the situation in China means that people will continue to move what money they can out of the country. That means that the 15% tax only slowed things down for a month or two. Already, exceptions are being found to having the tax applied. Son or daughter lives in place while attending school = no tax. Wife is living in place while husband continues to get as much out of China as possible = no tax. I'm sure that there are other exceptions.

I don't agree with burcs on houses on their own land.
First: Free standing houses as far out as Abbotsford are only staying on the market for a few days.
Two: There is no longer such a thing as a beginner free standing house in the lower mainland. Tear downs on a street of tear downs in a neighbourhood of tear downs are going for over a million dollars.
Three: The upper end Condos are not even marketed here. They are offered in Beijing and Shanghai and people are buying them without even looking at the plans for a building that hasn't even cleared our municipality's permit procedures. We never even get a chance on these condos - unless we want the one over the entrance to the under ground parking and garbage area. That one is usually left.
Four: The numbers don't work out if you are buying an investment property to rent out. The rent people are willing to pay doesn't match the money that has been sunk into the unit. That's why investment units are sitting empty. Our renter protection laws mean that a rented unit is a trashed unit where many renters don't even pay the monthly rent. That's despite a 2.9% vacancy rate which normally would mean an investor would have their units rented. Off Shore purchasers won't even look at an older building or a currently rented suite. They have no desire to own an unit in Gardenia Villa. http://vancouversun.com/news/local-...6-million-levy-to-repair-leaky-condo-problems

What the realtors are reporting right now is a large drop in sales, but only a minor (4.9%) drop in prices. The large drop in sales is due to the low hanging fruit already having been picked. There is also a large drop in units for sale because the sellers think (correctly) that the buyers will resume buying fairly soon.

There is an condo unit in Kits that was built in 1994 and has never been lived in. The owner now has it on the market. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/02/14/empty-penthouse-suite-vancouver_n_14727676.html The owner will find that the unit is almost impossible to sell because it's an older building that has it's problems. Many units in that building have been sold in the last year. Which tells the knowledgeable buyer that there is a special assessment coming up.

The Chinese buyer is not an idiot like the Japanese buyers in the 80s, The Japanese got hammered because, despite the fact that they created the bubble, they thought the bubble would go on forever. The Chinese buyer has a pretty good idea of how much "adjustment" to expect and is weighing that against the risk of losing any money they leave in China.
 

burcs

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Jun 26, 2014
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"ymmv"
I don't agree with burcs on houses on their own land.
First: Free standing houses as far out as Abbotsford are only staying on the market for a few days.
Two: There is no longer such a thing as a beginner free standing house in the lower mainland. Tear downs on a street of tear downs in a neighbourhood of tear downs are going for over a million dollars.
Three: The upper end Condos are not even marketed here. They are offered in Beijing and Shanghai and people are buying them without even looking at the plans for a building that hasn't even cleared our municipality's permit procedures. We never even get a chance on these condos - unless we want the one over the entrance to the under ground parking and garbage area. That one is usually left.
Four: The numbers don't work out if you are buying an investment property to rent out. The rent people are willing to pay doesn't match the money that has been sunk into the unit. That's why investment units are sitting empty. Our renter protection laws mean that a rented unit is a trashed unit where many renters don't even pay the monthly rent. That's despite a 2.9% vacancy rate which normally would mean an investor would have their units rented. Off Shore purchasers won't even look at an older building or a currently rented suite. They have no desire to own an unit in Gardenia Villa. http://vancouversun.com/news/local-...6-million-levy-to-repair-leaky-condo-problems
I'm not sure if you're addressing each of the points, but here are some things to think about:
1) Single detached homes further out are being bought buy locals that want to live in a house but cannot afford to in the lower mainland. This is a trickle down effect from the 'bubble' for high end houses. While you may see the odd one purchased by a foreign investor, it isn't something I would expect.
2) I mentioned beginner home specifically because I'd meant it to exclude house (hence one/two bedroom condos). Just a disagreement in terminology.
3) You aren't wrong, but neither am I. Even if overseas buyers are getting first crack, there can still be a shortage of supply.
4) Investment properties are typically purchased brand new/in pre-sale. Based on the increase in condo prices (and hence rent), someone who purchased a pre-sale unit two to three years in advance should have no problem finding the rent to be sufficient to cover their costs. Craigslist postings for rentals are a poor representation. You ought to see Chinese sites and/or Chinese property management companies. This is in addition to locals who do the same thing to hedge against the market rather than pay up for a house.

I think you posted a bunch of things that related to the misunderstanding of "beginner homes". Foreign investors are only interested in SDHs or brand new condos that they can flip quickly, I think that's a fair assumption to work off of.
 

sdw

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Jul 14, 2005
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I'm not sure if you're addressing each of the points, but here are some things to think about:
1) Single detached homes further out are being bought buy locals that want to live in a house but cannot afford to in the lower mainland. This is a trickle down effect from the 'bubble' for high end houses. While you may see the odd one purchased by a foreign investor, it isn't something I would expect.
2) I mentioned beginner home specifically because I'd meant it to exclude house (hence one/two bedroom condos). Just a disagreement in terminology.
3) You aren't wrong, but neither am I. Even if overseas buyers are getting first crack, there can still be a shortage of supply.
4) Investment properties are typically purchased brand new/in pre-sale. Based on the increase in condo prices (and hence rent), someone who purchased a pre-sale unit two to three years in advance should have no problem finding the rent to be sufficient to cover their costs. Craigslist postings for rentals are a poor representation. You ought to see Chinese sites and/or Chinese property management companies. This is in addition to locals who do the same thing to hedge against the market rather than pay up for a house.

I think you posted a bunch of things that related to the misunderstanding of "beginner homes". Foreign investors are only interested in SDHs or brand new condos that they can flip quickly, I think that's a fair assumption to work off of.
1: What happens with immigrant populations is that they move east as they are able to sell their original "starter". So, you have the East Indians that used to be at the south end of Main Street moving to Surrey. So, you have the Italians that were near Commercial, moved to Burnaby and now are moving into areas of Langley. What is happening near Abbotsford/Langley border is similar to Richmond. The first colony has already moved in and is creating the environment that is attractive to other Chinese. (Food Stores, Restaurants, Clothing Stores)
4: Rent is trailing Purchase Price by a very large number. This is because landlords are restricted in how much they can increase the rent every year. So, rental units are stratified by building age. If it's an older building, rental income can come close to unit maintenance costs - until the special assessment. In the newer buildings rentals are limited by Strata Bylaws and access control. New buildings limit access to common facilities and to residential floors. The developers have realized that many buyers don't want people wandering throughout the building, even if the person lives in the building. Even taxing "empty units" is not going to create an influx of available rental units, nor will it over rule Strata Bylaws that limit rentals. That's why Municipalities and Developers are now building rental apartment buildings, which hadn't been done for the past 20 - 30 years. There is one going up near Kootenay and Hastings. Municipalities are also legalizing suites in houses to create available rental units. All of this, makes buying a condo or townhouse to rent out - very unattractive.

There are going to be large numbers of old condo and townhouse units coming onto the market. What is happening is what has already happened at Gardenia Villa. http://vancouversun.com/news/local-...6-million-levy-to-repair-leaky-condo-problems People that barely qualified to service the mortgage on their unit were voting against raising Strata Fees and necessary building maintenance. Now, the buildings have deteriorated to the point that they are uninhabitable. Now, the courts have had to step in and order Strata Councils to repair their building. Since the owners that voted against necessary maintenance don't have the money to pay the special assessment for building repairs, they have to sell their unit. Many of these buildings are sitting on land that is worth more than than the units can be sold for. There is going to be a lot of redevelopment of 30 - 40 year old condo buildings.
 

Jethro Bodine

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2009
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Beverly Hills. In the Kitchen eatin' vittles.
I don't know how you guys afford to live out there.
I make a very nice living and from talking to a couple of good friends who live in Vancouver, I could likely afford a 1000 sq. ft. shack.
As I read this article I am sitting in the sun room of my 2560 sq. ft. character home, built in 1927, with a large deck, a pool and a double detached garage, in one of Winnipeg's Oldest Upscale neighbourhoods.
BTW, before anyone makes a comment about the weather, it is +1 C and sunny right now and I just got in from lovely cross country ski around Assiniboine Park.

Cheers
J
 

lenny

girls just wanna have fu
May 20, 2004
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your GF's panties
Interesting article re the history of ethnic populations & real estate in Vancouver, etc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver#Ethnic_origin

The first Chinese immigrants to British Columbia were men who came to "the British Colonies of Canada," as they called British Columbia, for the Fraser Canyon Gold Rush of 1858 and a decade later to work on building the Canadian Pacific Railway.
Because of the head tax and other anti-Chinese legislation, there was a decrease in the influx of Chinese families from the late 19th century until the Second World War. The Chinese population became isolated as China cut off all trading periods in its move towards cultural Marxism and Communism, and started to dismantle the feudal system and massacre Chinese that was opposed to the new Marxist Communist structure during the Cultural Revolution. Many Chinese in Canada lost their roots and culture and became de-Sinicized and Canadianized. Many intermarried with natives, called "First Nations" in Canada, while the upper classes intermarried with the Jewish population, especially those in the restaurant and movie business, and Anglo Protestants, especially the Chinese Christians. Due to the minimum wage law in Canada, the Chinese received equal schooling in English and lost their language, culture and customs since World War II.
All this started to change in the 1980s. The real estate developers and government of Canada saw an opportunity in the billions of hot money that was to flow out from Hong Kong as the Britished elite of Hong Kong fled from the Communists before the 1997 Handover. From the 1980s onwards, the elite of Hong Kong migrated en masse to United Kingdom, United States, Singapore and Canada. Because the United Kingdom and Singapore started to place limits on immigrants from Hong Kong, many Chinese in Hong Kong became trapped with fears of becoming stateless and homeless.
Canada saw an opportunity in absorbing the hot money from the elite Hong Kongese bankers to subsidize their heavily-indebted Canadian social welfare system, and to sell unwanted, unsold, backlogged, vacant housing stock empty since the 1970s building spree, and the pre-1987 speculative over-construction of cheap bungalows, British Civil Service, tycoons and imperial aristocracy of feudal China. The real estate lobby also saw a profit opportunity. They began attracting the emigres, mostly through publicity and temporary tax-friendly measures implemented for two years after immigration to Canada, in the province of British Columbia. This attracted the Hong Kongese to Vancouver and subsequently to Richmond.
A huge influx of immigrants from Hong Kong were approved to come to Vancouver in anticipation of and during the transfer of sovereignty of that former British colony from the United Kingdom to China. However, instead of taxing them, the Chinese government took a capitalist approach and removed all taxes for Hong Kongese peoples who would remain and integrate with the PRC economy. Because of these, many Hong Kong immigrants and refugees left Canada and returned to Hong Kong including the elites.
Unlike Canadian-born Chinese, they could not adapt to the brutal Canadian winters, and they suffered in Vancouver in boredom and misery. Many husbands called astronauts because they still worked in Hong Kong were also worried that their wives may commit adultery with white men who preyed on their monster mansions, so they sold many excess homes to re-invest in PRC. Together with the oversupply released by the establishment and real estate lobby in Vancouver, this eventually led to the crash of real estate market in Vancouver and Richmond, starting in 1999, because of overbuilding of condos.
Many white Canadians and Europeans who were infatuated with the wealth and the cosmopolitan, mega-city culture from the Hong Kongese and the temperate winters of Vancouver started migrated to Vancouver in search of the city life, especially from Squamish, Kamloops, but more importantly from the provinces with more brutal winters such as Alberta, Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba. While many Hong Kongese returned to Hong Kong, Singapore and British cities such as London, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow, among the minority who chose to remain and establish life in Canada, intermarriage with the existing population was very common, and they became Canadianized. Many children of Canadianized families then moved to Montreal, Los Angeles and New York City and left Canada permanently because of the weak and quiet economy of British Columbia.
Although statistically, that already established Vancouver as the second most multi-ethnic of Canada's cities (after Toronto) before the Hong Kong influx began, Vancouver started to have a bigger Asian minority than Toronto on paper. In reality, Vancouver was still mostly European because the Asian never really lived in Canada for consecutive years. After naturalization, they normally move back to Asia because of fears of racism, white supremacy, Judeo-Christian conflicts, and most of all, unlike the native Canadian Chinese population who has never lived in Asia, the foreign-born found Canada very boring and cold. Toronto as a result, climbed far ahead as the Canadian city with the biggest population of Asians by physical residence.
Although Statistics Canada data shows that over 17% of the approximately 2.5 million people living in the metropolitan area are ethnic Chinese, the reality is up to 90% (in winter especially) of those have left to live in Hong Kong. Once again, Vancouver was mocked by Torontonians as a "small town of farmers" although many other Canadians cherish that.
As of 2017, Vancouver has one of the most diverse Chinese-speaking and Asian-speaking communities during the summer (with residents, students, visitors and tourists from several regions of China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia, South Korea, Japan). In winter, it is less Asian and more African and European, as Canadians from Toronto and the maritimes winter in the milder climate of British Columbia. Many wealthy Americans also enjoy Whistler, Grouse Mountain and Vancouver for its winter attractions, and cheaper heating bills (due to a lower loonie). The only Asian population that remain in Vancouver are the locally born, the new immigrants from Northeast Asia such as Mongolia, Japan, Harbin and Changchun. All other Chinese normally will have fled the Canadian winters after the Christmas festivities, since the wealthy Chinese Canadians, unlike the middle class, do not depend on the local Vancouverite economy but on the Chinese economy for income.
Many Chinese immigrants are monolingual and have great difficulty in learning the English idiomatic expressions, even if they hail from British colonial Hong Kong. As such, they will not purchase anything without instructions in traditional Chinese for fear of food poisoning, allergies, contamination and prescriptive drug contraventions.
As such, merchants struggle to fight for their dollars by making linguistic modifications available to consumers in Downtown and Chinatown of Vancouver and Richmond.
Statistically, the ethnic Chinese from Hong Kong who speak Cantonese make up the largest group of luxury consumers within Vancouver's Chinese-speaking community.
However, before the influx of Hong Kong immigrants, many earlier Chinese spoke a much different Taishanese (台山話), which does not have English loanwords for hi-tech vocabulary or German, French and Yiddish loanwords for finance transliterated over. Taishanese is an agrarian-based language with more complex tone-shifts and vocabulary related to farming, agriculture, tea-farming, tea-culture, as well as Taoism, Taoist deities and Taoist spiritual practices. It is almost mutually unintelligible from Hong Kongese, a melting pot creolized language based on Middle Chinese Cantonese. Many Cantonese speakers from the Mainland do not understand rapid, idiomatic Hong Kongese vernacular either due to different verb alternatives, grammatical contractions, hi-tech and finance lingo, loanwords and bizarre inflection endings, originating from Hong Kong.
The majority of these early Taishanese immigrants migrated directly to Canada from the mountainous agrarian tribes in the pristine southern coastal province of Guangdong, which has not been exposed to Mongolization, Manchu Mandarinization, British colonialism nor American capitalism. As such, their language is quaint, polite and antique.[11]
In addition, the Chinese-speaking community has largely evolved separately according to where in China they originated. The residents do not understand each other completely as they speak various Chinese vernaculars such as Fuzhou, Mandarin, Hakka, Shanghainese, Taiwanese, and Teochiu.
They migrated to Vancouver from very diverse and disparate communities in Asia such as Mainland Chinese via Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Southeast Asia.
There are also many newly arrived Mainland Chinese refugees from the Cultural Revolution who had not been approved by the Hong Kong government for settlement in the colonies of Hong Kong, Kowloon, nor the New Territories and whose origin is from far-flung areas of China such as Suzhou, Jiangsu, Zhejiang, and who had not received permits to become permanent city resident of the Chinese metropolis of Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou or Shenzhen. Many such people do not understand Hong Kongese, standard Cantonese, Taiwanese, Fujianese/Hokkien, Shanghainese, only the most basic of standard Mandarin. They do not understand idiomatic Mandarin, but converse in their own native language and dialects.
Due to fears of PRC taking over Taiwan after the Hong Kong handover, immigration from Japanese and United States-allied Taiwan increased in the late 1980s and early 1990s from Taipei. Today, this continues at a steady pace, but from Tier 2 cities such as Taichung and Kaohsiung and other minor cities. Many Chinese in Tier-1 no longer migrate to the West as their economies have far surpassed those of major North American, Japanese and European Tier-1 cities. Hong Kong overtook New York as the world's most capitalized stock market after the Global Financial Crisis, while Singapore overtook Switzerland as the world's private banking city. Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen all overtook Hong Kong, Singapore, all European and North American cities in terms of profitability per resident. As such, they attract throngs of economic refugees from the United States and Europe daily. China also liberalized and started issuing green card equivalents to these new economic refugees due to the large PRC economy. Taiwan is left by Beijing to become a poor backwater for fears of political manipulation and instigation from the U.S. government and Japan to destabilize geopolitics.
Many elite Taiwanese have fled to the United States. Those who are older are currently choosing to retire in Vancouver or to raise their families in Canada, as they see no future in Taiwan because of Beijing's policies and the economic might of PRC.[citation needed]
The most recent Chinese immigrants to Vancouver are mostly political exiles from PRC who fled directly from Mainland China, after being persecuted by their government to death, such as the Falun Gong whose members have been arrested and murdered by PRC government and their organs harvested for sale to the wealthy and elite accessing the most expensive Chinese hospitals.
Out of all the Canadian cities, Vancouver continues to be the only one to receive immigration not only from Mainland China but also from Taiwan and Hong Kong, though to a lesser extent than in the 1990s. This is because the Chinese cannot survive the Canadian winters in other cities. However, since the Global Financial Crisis and the rise of China, Canada is no longer the top destination for emigrants from Asia. United States, UK and EU have all replaced Canada because the weakening of their currencies and housing markets are seen as "better value" than those in Vancouver.
Vancouver remains the top destination for the uber-wealthy of China because the Canadian nationality is seen as a neutral and safe nationality, similar to Switzerland, even if the wealthy Chinese purchase blocks of corporate buildings in Manhattan, the Chinese being peace-loving do not get engaged in aggressive U.S. / U.K. foreign policy.
Most of all Chinese culture like all Asian cultures is predominantly rural and agricultural for millennia, and the Chinese immigrants prefer the rural, insular mindset of Canada and Australia, which is more in line with Taoist philosophy, culture and preferences, than with the imperialistic and hegemonistic cultures of Anglo-America.
Because the Chinese peopleChinese no longer wish to migrate to Canada, in Vancouver, they are being rapidly displaced by the Filipinos, Thais, Vietnamese, Myannmar, Cambodians, Indonesians, Malaysians and Japanese.
Outside of the "East Asian" community, they are also being displaced by the African community from all parts of Africa, from the United States, and from the African continent itself. In Beijing, intermarriage between African intellectuals with the Han Chinese population has a long history, since the days of Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai. Although the Hong Kongese in general do not purchase properties in areas already inhabited, and settled whether by white European or by black African communities, the Beijing Chinese view African culture as exotic, mysterious and similar to Chinese history of being oppressed by White Colonialism.
Many take-out restaurants in Little Mountain of Vancouver, Surrey, South Surrey, White Rock and downtown Langley established by the Beijing Chinese cater predominantly to a black clientele, with the traditional Chinese menu altered specifically to suit the taste and palette of African immigrants. Many children of Chinese immigrants in Surrey from Beijing and the Mainland also make fast friends with the Canadian-born Africans and love to imitate the black gangsta-rap fashion and street-style. Many also start getting involved in drugs and gang culture due to the American influence. In 2016, Surrey was ranked the most dangerous city in the whole of Canada for the incidences of shooting and drug-related killings.
The Beijing Chinese and African communities in Surrey are rapidly displacing the South Asians monopoly and cartels in Surrey, (in particular the Sikh community that is separate from the much smaller Indian community, but statistically regrouped as "Indo-Canadians"). The "Indo-Canadians" are one of Vancouver's largest Asian minorities; according to current statistics, Vancouver has Canada's second largest Indo-Canadian population after Toronto. The children of PRC Chinese immigrants do not mix as much with the Sikhs unlike the Anglos due to British colonial relationships between the loyal British Sikh guards and the Anglo-British Settlers during the Great British Empire. The PRC Chinese integrate very well with the African community, and often collaborate with the black community on many social issues, such as social housing, budget for city school systems, gang violence-related family trauma, aggressive young male delinquency, and their "anti-bankster" gangsta-rap attitude. The Vancouver Sun featured articles about how children of both Chinese and African immigrants were popularizing a game in secondary schools in Surrey burning U.S. dollar bills, playing truant and playing basketball, watching NBA finals instead. The Beijing version of "American Idol" called "Superstar" also featured a mixed Chinese-African teenage singer who sung in Mandarin with African rhythm and won international acclaim. Unlike the elite Hong Kongese who had been schooled by the British and acquired a white supremacist, Anglo-American hegemonistic attitude, the Beijing and Mainland Chinese refugee immigrants most coalesced around a culture of urban marginalization, disenchantment with the global financial system, and ghettoization forced upon them by the North American urbanization social model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver#Ethnic_origin
 

escapefromstress

New member
Dec 18, 2014
1,144
1
0
How's this for a conspiracy theory?


Operation BedBug


“The increase in Chinese-foreign M&A activity in the last few years is stunning in scale,” noted Evan Anderson, INVNT/IP’s Director of Research. “The funding for this is often coming from the Chinese government, and industry leaders across the board should be thinking carefully about the possible consequences of selling assets to that entity. In the hospitality industry, we’re looking at Chinese government control of the country’s most important, and sensitive, meeting places. These hotels are an intellectual property hotbed, and it’s critical to understand them as such. They are a part of our inventive infrastructure, and they are vulnerable.”

http://www.invntip.com/bedbug/
 

sdw

New member
Jul 14, 2005
2,189
0
0
How's this for a conspiracy theory?


Operation BedBug


“The increase in Chinese-foreign M&A activity in the last few years is stunning in scale,” noted Evan Anderson, INVNT/IP’s Director of Research. “The funding for this is often coming from the Chinese government, and industry leaders across the board should be thinking carefully about the possible consequences of selling assets to that entity. In the hospitality industry, we’re looking at Chinese government control of the country’s most important, and sensitive, meeting places. These hotels are an intellectual property hotbed, and it’s critical to understand them as such. They are a part of our inventive infrastructure, and they are vulnerable.”

http://www.invntip.com/bedbug/
You didn't post the reason people are concerned. http://www.invntip.com/open-letter-...ican-hotels-kiss-death-elite-events-business/ It's well known that in a Hotel in China, you have no privacy. You have to turn on the recording machines in order to have lights and power.

There are a lot of conversations that people don't want recorded at any industry convention. Many are "Heads Up" conversations about what governments are planning on doing. Many are discussions about new technology that is about to reach the market. Many are pre-sale presentations of new/improved technology to current customers.

People aren't going to have conventions in Hotels that they suspect will be wired.

The American Embassy in Beijing and Shanghai are much like the American Embassy in Moscow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embassy_of_the_United_States,_Moscow They are known to be heavily wired except for the floors that have been rebuilt.
 

escapefromstress

New member
Dec 18, 2014
1,144
1
0
You didn't post the reason people are concerned. http://www.invntip.com/open-letter-...ican-hotels-kiss-death-elite-events-business/ It's well known that in a Hotel in China, you have no privacy. You have to turn on the recording machines in order to have lights and power.

There are a lot of conversations that people don't want recorded at any industry convention. Many are "Heads Up" conversations about what governments are planning on doing. Many are discussions about new technology that is about to reach the market. Many are pre-sale presentations of new/improved technology to current customers.

People aren't going to have conventions in Hotels that they suspect will be wired.

The American Embassy in Beijing and Shanghai are much like the American Embassy in Moscow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embassy_of_the_United_States,_Moscow They are known to be heavily wired except for the floors that have been rebuilt.
I thought that 'bedbug' in the title would be enough of a clue as to the real topic of the article for those who would be interested.

;)
 

PrickAssO

Cunning Lingual Artist
Jul 22, 2009
32
0
6
Between your knees
I don't know how you guys afford to live out there.
I make a very nice living and from talking to a couple of good friends who live in Vancouver, I could likely afford a 1000 sq. ft. shack.
As I read this article I am sitting in the sun room of my 2560 sq. ft. character home, built in 1927, with a large deck, a pool and a double detached garage, in one of Winnipeg's Oldest Upscale neighbourhoods.
BTW, before anyone makes a comment about the weather, it is +1 C and sunny right now and I just got in from lovely cross country ski around Assiniboine Park.

Cheers
J
Sometimes I really miss Winnipeg but I think I'll keep my visits to the summer months. At the moment however, Winnipeg actually seems like a good place to invest in real estate.
 

burcs

Banned
Jun 26, 2014
1,058
0
0
"ymmv"
1: What happens with immigrant populations is that they move east as they are able to sell their original "starter". So, you have the East Indians that used to be at the south end of Main Street moving to Surrey. So, you have the Italians that were near Commercial, moved to Burnaby and now are moving into areas of Langley. What is happening near Abbotsford/Langley border is similar to Richmond. The first colony has already moved in and is creating the environment that is attractive to other Chinese. (Food Stores, Restaurants, Clothing Stores)
4: Rent is trailing Purchase Price by a very large number. This is because landlords are restricted in how much they can increase the rent every year. So, rental units are stratified by building age. If it's an older building, rental income can come close to unit maintenance costs - until the special assessment. In the newer buildings rentals are limited by Strata Bylaws and access control. New buildings limit access to common facilities and to residential floors. The developers have realized that many buyers don't want people wandering throughout the building, even if the person lives in the building. Even taxing "empty units" is not going to create an influx of available rental units, nor will it over rule Strata Bylaws that limit rentals. That's why Municipalities and Developers are now building rental apartment buildings, which hadn't been done for the past 20 - 30 years. There is one going up near Kootenay and Hastings. Municipalities are also legalizing suites in houses to create available rental units. All of this, makes buying a condo or townhouse to rent out - very unattractive.

There are going to be large numbers of old condo and townhouse units coming onto the market. What is happening is what has already happened at Gardenia Villa. http://vancouversun.com/news/local-...6-million-levy-to-repair-leaky-condo-problems People that barely qualified to service the mortgage on their unit were voting against raising Strata Fees and necessary building maintenance. Now, the buildings have deteriorated to the point that they are uninhabitable. Now, the courts have had to step in and order Strata Councils to repair their building. Since the owners that voted against necessary maintenance don't have the money to pay the special assessment for building repairs, they have to sell their unit. Many of these buildings are sitting on land that is worth more than than the units can be sold for. There is going to be a lot of redevelopment of 30 - 40 year old condo buildings.
1) The immigration demographic in Vancouver now is obviously a lot different compared with pre-90s. You can't compare these ethnic groups the Chinese population today. The immigrants today obviously have much more money available to spend. You really think they're going to grow a Chinese community in Abbotsford or Langley? I'm sorry but that's absurd. How is it that people with too much money to spend are going to willingly waste the travel time, not to mention the comfort of their existing communities in Richmond, Vancouver and Burnaby, and go live that far. These people come from cities where it takes 30 minutes at most for them to get to anywhere via public transit. The people moving out to Abbotsford and Langley are the younger families who need the space of a SDH to grow their families and are willing to sacrifice being a bit further away from family/friends and/or work.
4) I know I had only said "investment condo", but I had hoped to imply that the condo is an actual investment. This typically means presales or condos that are <5 years old, since they can be flipped before 10 year warranty expires on the building. So I don't see any point in discussing older condos aside from the fact that they are a basis from which the low end of the property buying spectrum is built from (people that don't make much money yet are looking to a longer term solution than simply renting). I really have no idea what the blurb about accessing floor control is about, it's purely for security purposes. Depending on the location, if you bought a new-ish condo today with 20% down and rented it out, rental income would likely cover roughly 70-100% of your mortgage amount. The minimal amount you're required to pay from out of your own pocket (if any) is miniscule compared to the equity you're gaining on the property, not to mention (yes, even now) the increase in value of the condo even as SDH sales are on the decline.
 

poonmiester

Long Time Member
Jul 11, 2005
906
22
28
1 major issue is the logic of banks.... as a born Canadian. .. you credit score has to be almost perfect. ..you need to have stability of income...stability of past residential... and need to have a hefty down payment ...if you have all this ..and maybe throw in your first born child and get your parents to co-sign and tie in their house ... well banks will be happy to lend you....
Gouvernement throws money at developers to build what is supposed to be affordable housing ....which by the time they finished filling up their pockets.. it's a building worth less then 30% of what it cost to build... and within years ...it will be up for a complete renovation...
On the other government and banks don't seem to realize that prices of rent are now approximately 110% of actual cost of landlords mortgage and taxes and so on...these people could easily cover the mortgage as they are already doing that. .. but because their credit is not perfect and don't necessarily have a family to co-sign. .. they will never be able to obtain a mortgage...but as long as they are alive will always need to pay to live somewhere.....
And then governments completely ignore the Canadian born situation... and cater to influx of immigrants with cash. .. to purchase 2 million or 3 million dollars homes.. and turn around and declare 0 income... in return..government throws all kind of income subsidies and benefits.. but if you are a Canadian born.... you better pay the $500 you owe revenue Canada. .. otherwise they will rush in and seize anything you have including your present income.... needless to say... people I know in this situation...are not liking this so much....
As for the bubble bursting... as someone said... the older generation of Chinese knew how to make money.... the newer generation..knows how to spend it... and when the older are gone...Arena money runs out.... listen for the loud pop... it will be heard across the country....
 
W

Warl0ck

1 major issue is the logic of banks.... as a born Canadian. .. you credit score has to be almost perfect. ..you need to have stability of income...stability of past residential... and need to have a hefty down payment ...if you have all this ..and maybe throw in your first born child and get your parents to co-sign and tie in their house ... well banks will be happy to lend you....
I've found it's the opposite. When I bought my first condo, the standard ratio was 3 times your gross income. Nothing more. The last time I qualified for a mortgage I was "blown away" at the money they'd have given me.

God help us if we ever have 10% rates again. This whole house of cards will come caving in. My address is the same as it's always been. 1974 Winnebago Lane. And no I don't cook meth.
 

poonmiester

Long Time Member
Jul 11, 2005
906
22
28
Having been self employed for the most part of my life.... providing work for a crew of men on a regular base... and having to hop from Bank to bank to get a mortgage was quite an event...and very sad experience... some of my employee which are making maybe $20 to 25 an hour get loans for a $50,000 vehicle...while I have to explain... and provide books for the past 10 years... and then told the bank manager... if I was to run out of work tomorrow... who do you think would be staying home.... certainly not me.... and in that case what has the best value the house you plunked a mortgage out or the $50,000 vehicle....

What I am saying is that... there are 1000's of people out there that month after month are paying more in rent then a mortgage would cost... and they do not have a choice they need to live somewhere....I say let the banks drop their criteria in terms of who can get a loan and let people buy instead of being stuck in a lifetime rent lane which due to the high rentals...will never be able to save for a down-payment. ...and on the other hand... stop giving out 3 times what some other can afford and disperse it out....
 

lenny

girls just wanna have fu
May 20, 2004
4,101
76
48
your GF's panties
"... in 2016 average one-bedroom rents for downtown Vancouver were $1,434, according to Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation."

"...Based on that market appraisal, the city is now comparing the rent rate to the average rent of a newly built rental apartment in Yaletown: $1,700 a month. Based on that measure, these are considered affordable units, the city says."

"Rent or mortgage payments are generally considered affordable if they take up no more than 30 per cent of annual income."

http://www.metronews.ca/news/vancouver/2017/03/31/vancouvers-shockingly-high-affordable-rents-.html
 

Cock Throppled

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2003
4,974
888
113
Upstairs
Yeah, the provincial and federal governments really had their citizen's interests in mind when they allowed every foreign scam, and any money, no questions asked, to flood our housing market.

I get audited so they can squeeze an extra $2,000 out of me, yet every crooked foreign investor can pour money into our housing to leave it vacant so the province can collect property transfer taxes on ever-increasing values. Thank you, Madame Premier. Then, when the heat finally gets too hot, three years too late, she finally puts in a foreign buyers' tax.
 
Ashley Madison
Vancouver Escorts