Asian Fever

US Dept of Justice vs Apple

a_lee_n

New member
Nov 23, 2014
20
0
1
Well, this is a fun topic :)

Here is what I think, which is a lot of opinion, with a dash education from my emergency and disaster management degree (lots of terrorism related classes), and a look at history. Also tempered for being an American (if that matters).

1. The phone is a county government phone that was assigned to Farook. It is highly doubtful that any real actionable intelligence is on this phone (consent to monitor would have been a part of the agreement to use the phone on the governments dime) as he most likely used a burner phone of some sort for communication (if they actually had any other helpers/planners). I think a burner phone is likely since they took the pains of destroy some items (including other phones I believe) in their home and throw out their computer's hard drive, as well as trying to remove their digital presence online prior to the attack.

2. The people Farook would have called on the iPhone would have been tracked by their phone's service provider, and the FBI should already have this info.

3. Just about any info that may be on the phone will not be actionable because anyone who was associated with them would have gone to ground back in early December and are long gone (unless they are stupid, which is always possible, but I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt of having some competence).

Ok, now why I think any legislation for a backdoor to be required on electronic equipment is a terrible idea.

1. History. Look at the Patriot Act, and now the Freedom Act. The vast majority of the provisions have not been used to fight terrorism, but used on the greater "war on drugs". When you delve deeper into any anti-terrorism law, it is immediately used by law enforcement around the country to identify, monitor, and bust suspected drug criminals. If Apple and others are forced to created backdoors, you can bet that law enforcement will use it for any crime they can pin on individuals (Stingray scanners used by local police departments for example). Also proliferation of this backdoor info throughout the agencies and law enforcement will mean that it will be easier for hackers to obtain this information, never mind other more repressive regimes.

2. The intelligence and security apparatus of the US is in the business of lying to US citizens in order to "keep us safe from terrorist acts" (see James Clapper's testimony to Congress over the NSA intelligence collecting. He also has a history of lying about other intelligence subjects).

3. The intelligence and security agencies will use any excuse to broaden their surveillance, even though it has been proven that the amount of data they collect is so vast that they literally can not find terrorists, so they are constantly asking for more budget from Congress in order to increase the number of agents, and build bigger data centers to help sift through all the data they collect. I guess they believe at some point that they will perfect some algorithm that will pin-point terrorist communications, despite the fact that most of the successful terrorist attacks since the fall of the Soviet Union were conducted by individuals who were on various agencies radars prior to the attacks. It was the bureaucracy, agency competitiveness and lack of communication, shifted priorities, and yes, even some institutional incompetence that permitted these attacks to occur successfully, not the lack of red flags that indicted those individuals should be investigated.

I don't want to come off as some paranoid conspiracy theorist :) I have just grown more suspicious of the US government, and especially the intelligence and security agencies over the past decade-and-a-half when they insist that they need to reduce everyone's privacy over security concerns about terrorism. Just realize the "war on terror" is a forever war. There will always be terrorism and the government can not stop every attack regardless of how much surveillance they want to enact. Should Americans fight tooth and nail for their privacy rights? I think so. -A
 
Last edited:

thodisipagal

Active member
Oct 23, 2010
413
36
28
Surrey
Thodisipagal, read BBB's last post. Look online at how many requests ATT and Verizon are receiving annually from the Feds for client data information. If they are receiving requests for data, the data is in their possession to give. Reread the terms and conditions of any app and your carrier.

Also your earlier claim that what the FBI is asking is akin to breaking attorney client privilege is crazy - there is no similarity. And the fifth ammendment deals with not being compelled to provide testimony against ones self, it has nothing to do with protecting someone from recorded evidence that implcates them in criminal behaviour.

I also heard someone on CBC's the Current this week talking about how the FBI could probably go it alone in breaking the iphone, but legally it's easier if Apple does it for them and Apple's familiarity with their own product would probably make it faster. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple already had access to the technology requested.
I know phone companies can data mine. That's precisely the reason, not despite it, why I said, "why didn't FBI go to Farook's carrier [to get the data] instead of [trying to force Apple to write a code for a backdoor access system]?" If it is Farook's communications data that the FBI was interested in, wouldn't it be easier just to get it from the carrier as the carrier apparently already have mined it?

FBI doesn't have Farook's communication data; they only have his phone with 10-try-and-brick locking feature, with data that it wants to access, which Apple is uncomfortable helping with because of the beach of privacy issue.

I mentioned attorney client privilege because that is also a sacred privacy issue. Even if in the course of pre-trial discovery the attorney becomes confident that the client is the perpetrator of the crime the client is accused of, the attorney cannot be forced to share the discovered information if that is part of the privilege. I don't know why it is crazy to draw similarity in breach of privacy.
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
9,548
300
83
In Lust Mostly
Well, this is a fun topic :)

Here is what I think, which is a lot of opinion, with a dash education from my emergency and disaster management degree (lots of terrorism related classes), and a look at history. Also tempered for being an American (if that matters).

1. The phone is a county government phone that was assigned to Farook. It is highly doubtful that any real actionable intelligence is on this phone (consent to monitor would have been a part of the agreement to use the phone on the governments dime) as he most likely used a burner phone of some sort for communication (if they actually had any other helpers/planners). I think a burner phone is likely since they took the pains of destroy some items (including other phones I believe) in their home and throw out their computer's hard drive, as well as trying to remove their digital presence online prior to the attack.

2. The people Farook would have called on the iPhone would have been tracked by their phone's service provider, and the FBI should already have this info.

3. Just about any info that may be on the phone will not be actionable because anyone who was associated with them would have gone to ground back in early December and are long gone (unless they are stupid, which is always possible, but I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt of having some competence).

Ok, now why I think any legislation for a backdoor to be required on electronic equipment is a terrible idea.

1. History. Look at the Patriot Act, and now the Freedom Act. The vast majority of the provisions have not been used to fight terrorism, but used on the greater "war on drugs". When you delve deeper into any anti-terrorism law, it is immediately used by law enforcement around the country to identify, monitor, and bust suspected drug criminals. If Apple and others are forced to created backdoors, you can bet that law enforcement will use it for any crime they can pin on individuals (Stingray scanners used by local police departments for example). Also proliferation of this backdoor info throughout the agencies and law enforcement will mean that it will be easier for hackers to obtain this information, never mind other more repressive regimes.

2. The intelligence and security apparatus of the US is in the business of lying to US citizens in order to "keep us safe from terrorist acts" (see James Clapper's testimony to Congress over the NSA intelligence collecting. He also has a history of lying about other intelligence subjects).

3. The intelligence and security agencies will use any excuse to broaden their surveillance, even though it has been proven that the amount of data they collect is so vast that they literally can not find terrorists, so they are constantly asking for more budget from Congress in order to increase the number of agents, and build bigger data centers to help sift through all the data they collect. I guess they believe at some point that they will perfect some algorithm that will pin-point terrorist communications, despite the fact that most of the successful terrorist attacks since the fall of the Soviet Union were conducted by individuals who were on various agencies radars prior to the attacks. It was the bureaucracy, agency competitiveness and lack of communication, shifted priorities, and yes, even some institutional incompetence that permitted these attacks to occur successfully, not the lack of red flags that indicted those individuals should be investigated.

I don't want to come off as some paranoid conspiracy theorist :) I have just grown more suspicious of the US government, and especially the intelligence and security agencies over the past decade-and-a-half when they insist that they need to reduce everyone's privacy over security concerns about terrorism. Just realize the "war on terror" is a forever war. There will always be terrorism and the government can not stop every attack regardless of how much surveillance they want to enact. Should American tight tooth and nail for their privacy rights? I think so. -A
That post is golden in my book. You have clearly nailed why not just Americans but anyone visiting the USA ought to have some healthy paranoia. The Patriot / Freedom act was far too broad in scope and most likely never even read by the Congress who voted on it. Anyone surprised?

Thanks for your perspective :clap2:
 

a_lee_n

New member
Nov 23, 2014
20
0
1
That post is golden in my book. You have clearly nailed why not just Americans but anyone visiting the USA ought to have some healthy paranoia. The Patriot / Freedom act was far too broad in scope and most likely never even read by the Congress who voted on it. Anyone surprised?

Thanks for your perspective :clap2:
Thanks and NP :) I only superficially addressed a number of problems within the US intelligence agencies. I only have time to write about one tonight, and that is that intelligence agencies tend to be echo chambers with revolving doors for senior members that go between heading agencies and then creating lobby groups that have political clout in Washington DC. Michael Chertoff is one famous example. He goes from Homeland Security (2005-2009), then forms the Chertoff Group (CG) which advises politicians on homeland security topics. CG is also responsible for a number of no bid contracts for body scanners at airports (the same ones that were later removed for being too invasive and unable to detected body forming explosives). Next Chertoff becomes a chairman for BAE Systems. Where he ends up next is anyone's guess, but if a Republican becomes president I would not be surprised to see him show up as a director for an intelligence agency. Michael Vincent Hayden was director of the National Security Agency (NSA) from 1999 to 2005, then CIA director from 2006-2009, and surprise surprise a head principle of the Chertoff Group after Obama wins the 2008 election. Hayden is also another person that will be tapped for another agency role if a Republican wins the 2016 election. He is also the prime mover of the NSA warrantless surveillance during his time as NSA director. ...and it goes on and on with the musical chairs these guys play. So no matter how much things change, they always seem to stay the same... -A
 

sdw

New member
Jul 14, 2005
2,189
0
0
The phone that the FBI wants to get into may have already been "bricked" by them.

http://www.hardocp.com/news/2016/02...et_shooterrsquos_icloud_password#.VstVTNBX2Sp
http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-confirms-shooters-icloud-password-reset-2016-2
The FBI confirmed it screwed up and reset the San Bernardino shooter's iCloud password


Alex Heath, Tech Insider

Feb. 21, 2016, 11:38 AM

The FBI has shed more light on its involvement in what is shaping up to be the most controversial piece of evidence in the investigation of San Bernardino terror suspect Syed Rizwan Farook: his iCloud account password.

Hours after Farook's iPhone was recovered by law enforcement, the password to his iCloud account was reset. The reset was an attempt to gain access to his account. It also likely prevented the iPhone from doing an auto-backup, which could have yielded useful information about Farook's activity leading up to the shooting that killed 14 people and wounded 22 others.

That kicked off a round of finger-pointing by Apple executives, the FBI, and San Bernardino County officials over who reset the iCloud password. In a statement issued in the wee hours of Sunday morning (you can read it below), the FBI confirmed it was working with San Bernardino County officials when the password was reset.

Apple executives said Friday that if the FBI hadn't changed the iCloud password, it wouldn't need to create a backdoor to the iPhone.

It sounds like the FBI screwed this whole process up.

Got all that? It's a complicated situation.

In case you need catching up, here's a breakdown of what's happened so far:

Last week the FBI asked Apple to create a backdoor for hacking the state-owned iPhone that belonged to Farook, a government worker.
Apple CEO Tim Cook responded with a blistering letter denying the request. His argument was that creating the kind of backdoor the FBI wanted would create a "master key" others could use to hack into iPhones.
The FBI responded with a motion from the Department of Justice on Friday compelling Apple to help anyway. In the motion, the FBI revealed that San Bernardino County officials had attempted to access the backups of Farook's iCloud account by resetting his password hours after the phone was recovered.
Apple held a call with reporters Friday afternoon and revealed that resetting the iCloud password effectively locked the iPhone maker out of accessing its backups. If the county didn't reset the password, Apple would have likely been able to access the backup contents as it has done in past investigations without creating a backdoor to break the iPhone's encryption.
Late Friday night, San Bernardino County revealed that it had been acting at the FBI's request to reset the iCloud password, which went against the FBI's motion that was filed earlier that day and blamed a county official for the reset.

You can read the FBI's full statement, which affirms that it was indeed working with San Bernardino County to reset the password, below:

STATEMENT TO ADDRESS MISLEADING REPORTS THAT THE COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO RESET TERROR SUSPECT’S IPHONE WITHOUT CONSENT OF THE FBI

Recent media reports have suggested that technicians in the county of San Bernardino independently conducted analysis and took steps to reset the iCloud account password associated with the iPhone 5C that was recovered during a federal search following the attack in San Bernardino that killed 14 people and wounded 22 others on December 2, 2015. This is not true. FBI investigators worked cooperatively with the county of San Bernardino in order to exploit crucial data contained in the iCloud account associated with a county-issued iPhone that was assigned to the suspected terror suspect, Syed Rizwan Farook.

Since the iPhone 5C was locked when investigators seized it during the lawful search on December 3rd, a logical next step was to obtain access to iCloud backups for the phone in order to obtain evidence related to the investigation in the days following the attack. The FBI worked with San Bernardino County to reset the iCloud password on December 6th, as the county owned the account and was able to reset the password in order to provide immediate access to the iCloud backup data. The reset of the iCloud account password does not impact Apple’s ability to assist with the the court order under the All Writs Act.

The last iCloud data backup of the iPhone 5C was 10/19 and, based on other evidence, investigators know that Syed Rizwan Farook had been using the phone after 10/19. It is unknown whether an additional iCloud backup of the phone after that date -- if one had been technically possible -- would have yielded any data.

Through previous testing, we know that direct data extraction from an iOS device often provides more data than an iCloud backup contains. Even if the password had not been changed and Apple could have turned on the auto-backup and loaded it to the cloud, there might be information on the phone that would not be accessible without Apple's assistance as required by the All Writs Act order, since the iCloud backup does not contain everything on an iPhone. As the government's pleadings state, the government's objective was, and still is, to extract as much evidence as possible from the phone.
There is also this piece https://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-natural-outcome-of-the-encryption-wars-in-the-u-s/
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
9,548
300
83
In Lust Mostly
It's not surprising at all that this was the root cause of all these political events by asking the Judiciary to fix their mistakes.

I would think if forced to abide by the ruling that Apple could ensure the "single iPhone 5C" would be analyzed within Apple's labs to ensure the special IOS is not shared or used widely by NSA, CIA and FBI. The IP would expose Apple's IOS to all sorts of hacking, virus attacks and abuse of LEO usage.

That was an interesting blogged post showing how the two sides line up. I find it interesting some people will blindly give up their rights to privacy under the guise of "the war on terror".
 

westwoody

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2004
7,346
6,321
113
Westwood
Imagine you are a black civil rights worker in Tennessee.

Do you want the local sheriff/KKK grand wizard having a back door into your phone?

Cause that is what will happen.
 

a_lee_n

New member
Nov 23, 2014
20
0
1
Imagine you are a black civil rights worker in Tennessee.

Do you want the local sheriff/KKK grand wizard having a back door into your phone?

Cause that is what will happen.
What you would be more worried about is the picture of you with a blunt causing a SWAT raid to your home and civil forfeiture of everything you own, and then felony time in prison (that is if the no knock raid doesn't some how end up with you dead because you defend yourself from a home invasion. A similar story happened in Utah several years back).
 

westwoody

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2004
7,346
6,321
113
Westwood
^ LOZ assuming they get the right house!
They have gone to wrong houses and killed totally innocent people. Oops. Sorry.

And "No Knock Raids" were once an extremely rare thing, only to be used in the desperate circumstances.
Now they are the norm, knock knock smash flash bang.
Every time they get some new extreme measure it becomes standard modus operandi.

All these debates supporters of "law enforcement" assume they are infallible and morally unquestionable. That is simply wrong. When Dziekanski was killed by four RCMP the police's first response was SEIZE THE VIDEO. A despicable failure by the people who claim the right to snoop on you. And one of those four killers went on to kill someone else. Police are not qualified to make these decisions. The police should not even be involved in the discussion, they are so biased and untrustworthy.
 

a_lee_n

New member
Nov 23, 2014
20
0
1
...and here go, The List Of 12 Other Cases Where The DOJ Has Demanded Apple Help It Hack Into iPhones.

The relevant quote "...lends tremendous weight to the idea that not only is the FBI desperately seeking to set a precedent, but it was waiting for a case with "good PR optics" to go public with, so that it could pull on some heart strings to get the public on its side. The high profile "terror" case in which a bunch of people were murdered in cold blood apparently was the perfect case. But, yeah, once again, Director Comey was flat out lying when he claimed the FBI has no interest in setting a precedent."
 

sdw

New member
Jul 14, 2005
2,189
0
0
The FBI admitted in a hearing that they "Bricked" the phone the first day http://business.financialpost.com/f...one-in-24-hours-after-rampage?__lsa=5906-1c7a

WASHINGTON — The head of the FBI acknowledged Tuesday that his agency lost a chance to capture data from the iPhone used by one of the San Bernardino, California, attackers when it ordered that his password to the online storage service iCloud be reset shortly after the rampage.

“There was a mistake made in that 24 hours after the attack,” James B. Comey Jr., the director of the FBI, told lawmakers at a hearing on the government’s attempt to force Apple to help “unlock” the iPhone.

FBI personnel apparently believed that by resetting the iCloud password, they could get access to information stored on the iPhone. Instead, the change had the opposite effect — locking them out and eliminating other means of getting in.
So, the current case against Apple is about getting future access to other phones.
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
9,548
300
83
In Lust Mostly

sdw

New member
Jul 14, 2005
2,189
0
0
An interesting read from Vice News. Snowden outlines a number of reasons to call the FBI demands as bogus. FBI was using the latest terror attack in San Bernadino as a reason to get the courts to side with them after numerous requests on Apple to supply the code to analyze the locked iPhone 5C.

https://news.vice.com/article/edward-snowden-calls-bullshit-on-fbis-claim-that-it-cant-unlock-iphone
I don't think that Edward Snowden has any real expertise. It doesn't take that much intelligence for a low level contract employee to copy stuff onto an USB stick. The FBI has already admitted that they "Bricked" the phone the first day that they had it in their possession. The case has nothing to do with that specific phone and everything to do with the US Government acquiring the "secret password" for EVERY cellphone. They won't stop with Apple, it was just the case that they thought could be "sold" easily.
 

westwoody

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2004
7,346
6,321
113
Westwood
As BBB mentioned above, Apple has previously opened phone for law enforcement in their own Apple workshop.

If the FBI really wanted the information that was supposedly in the phone they could have gone to Apple and asked for Apple to open the phone. But they didn't. They demanded their own backdoor. That indicates the information was not a priority, getting a means of opening phones--all phones--is their priority.

Two entirely different things.

FBI did not ask for the information on the phone. They demanded a backdoor be installed on all phones. I don't write phone software but that could be a much bigger task than it seems.
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
9,548
300
83
In Lust Mostly
I don't think that Edward Snowden has any real expertise. It doesn't take that much intelligence for a low level contract employee to copy stuff onto an USB stick. The FBI has already admitted that they "Bricked" the phone the first day that they had it in their possession. The case has nothing to do with that specific phone and everything to do with the US Government acquiring the "secret password" for EVERY cellphone. They won't stop with Apple, it was just the case that they thought could be "sold" easily.
Did you read the link Snowden provided from the technology expert from ACLU?

Probably not, here it is in plain sight.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/one-fbis-major-claims-iphone-case-fraudulent
 

sdw

New member
Jul 14, 2005
2,189
0
0
Did you read the link Snowden provided from the technology expert from ACLU?

Probably not, here it is in plain sight.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/one-fbis-major-claims-iphone-case-fraudulent
The American Civil Liberties Union may be more "on top of it" than Edward Snowden - but - they are a political lobby organization and what they say is often not the truth. Their pronouncements are often heavily weighted by their biases.

The FBI already has admitted that they "bricked" the phone. Apple has already told them that they should have brought it to Apple before they started playing super detective with it. What they want is a "secret key" to ALL phones, the same as they have a "secret key" to all Hard Drives sold in the USA and elsewhere. http://www.businessinsider.com/r-russian-researchers-expose-breakthrough-us-spying-program-2015-2 http://betanews.com/2015/02/16/worldwide-equation-group-hid-undetectable-spyware-on-hard-drives/
 
Last edited:

sdw

New member
Jul 14, 2005
2,189
0
0
John Oliver has covered the issues fairly well in this YouTube

 
Vancouver Escorts