Asian Fever

The Climate Change Deniers can go back to their holes now

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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Or they are using data that isn't fixed. It's called climategate, maybe you should pull your head out of the sand and look around. Independent scientists don't make as much money as Al Gore does.
Nope that is not it. The deniers just don't want to change their lifestyle and/or their way of earning a living.

There is a mountain of data showing that the planet is rapidly warming. The global consequences are going to be devastating. The only thing that is unclear is what we can do about it. But burning fossil fuels at ever increasing rates is not helping, that much should be obvious to even a brain dead rat. At some point in the not too distant future supplies are going to run out and civilization as we know it will come to a grinding halt anyway, roughly about the time when the consequences of global warming reach their peak. That is something that will happen in the lifetimes of people who are alive today, it is not that far away.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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Ask david suzuki about it if you see him walking around his fancy West Vancouver neighborhood....that is of course if you are admitted to that fancy neighborhood....you might ask him why he is on the bandwagon that is global warming when not less than 15 years ago he was bleating about global cooling and the next soon to be arriving ice age....it would probably be a wasted effort as david suzuki has his tax payer funded foundation to protect and he certainly would not tarnish it's image as he would not want to lose the donations from the general public who buy into the snake oil he sells.

SR
Actually there is global cooling from particulate pollution as well as global warming from emissions. The two things counteract each other, with warming being the dominant one. Warming rates would be higher without the cooling effect. This was dramatically demonstrated after 911 when all air traffic over north america was grounded. Contrails seed significant high altitute cloud formation which increases the overall albedo over the continent, when that stopped due to no air traffic there was a sharp spike up in temperature.
 

BenSisko

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Aug 4, 2012
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Climategate. End of story. You keep saying evidence, show us. Here are some FACTS, SIMPLE FACTS.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uh20cnLwCiw?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

BenSisko

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Aug 4, 2012
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The climate scientists are doing that. the creationists, er, fossil fuel dupes, er, "contrarians" have not provided anything substantial, just mucking about the edges of the hard data pointing out the flecks in the paint and the places where a nail needs to be driven in a bit deeper. In creationism, this is called the science of the gaps.

The irrelevant bit of video of the Au7ssie scientist misses the point. One can go back * look at geological epochs and say that warm phases happen & its much colder most of the time. Irrelevant. Human civilization id less than 10,000 years old. Mass civilization less than 300. It has been the climatic conditions of the last 300-500 year that have allowed our mass civilization to occur and continue.

Excessive warming or cooling will upset the apple cart and lead to a world climate that cannot sustain anywhere near as many humans as exist today. If what the Aussie say is true, that we are in for a cooling trend in about 30-50 years, great, we just have to do what we can until then to slow the heating & then, once we understand the rate of cooling, open the CO2 floodgates again to slow the cooling. Regardless whether humans are a large or small part of the causes of global climate change, we need to do what we can to keep the average global temperature within the "Goldilocks" zone where mass civilization can exist.
CO2 doesn't effect climate.... And there is no warming at all. Where are all these tropical storms the alarmists say will increase as temperature goes up?
 

BenSisko

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Aug 4, 2012
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CO2 doesn't affect climate. PeaceGuy, you're wasting your time trying to reason with him. You might have better luck explaining to Sarah Palin that the earth was not created 6000 years ago. :pound:


http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/causes.html

I'm living in the real world where we use science. CO2 lags temp increases by 600 years.
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mik

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Dec 25, 2004
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Poor Ben - so easily fooled.

The Great Global Warming Swindle is the Expelled of global warming (AGW), i.e. the go-to film for denialist propagandists. It rolls most of the popular points refuted a thousand times into a sixty minute-plus "documentary," so, if anything, it's a good watch in terms of seeing how deniers cherry-pick, distort, and fabricate "facts" in order to "debunk" AGW. Hint: It's not too different from creationist techniques.
 

BenSisko

Banned
Aug 4, 2012
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Poor Ben - so easily fooled.

The Great Global Warming Swindle is the Expelled of global warming (AGW), i.e. the go-to film for denialist propagandists. It rolls most of the popular points refuted a thousand times into a sixty minute-plus "documentary," so, if anything, it's a good watch in terms of seeing how deniers cherry-pick, distort, and fabricate "facts" in order to "debunk" AGW. Hint: It's not too different from creationist techniques.
The fact that CO2 lags climate increases is a FACT regardless of what documentary its from. Guess you haven't heard of Climategate. Since you mentioned cherry-picking data.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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Or, people back East think that they are the centre of the universe as always and ignore the rest of the world :) I bet they have no idea we had cold weather. We just didn't fit in their picture LOL
No, the cooler than usual part of the continent was a narrow strip along the NW coast, more than 95% of the continent experienced a heat wave this summer.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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I don't think so. We already have the sun- or nuclear energy technology that has been suppressed by those who make money in oil. The minute oil runs out, somebody will put his hand on the other technology and will figure out how to make tons of money on it and we will be driving electric cars :)

IF somebody was really worried about us, he would try to push clean energy cars, as gas driven cars are spewing literally poisonous gas into the atmosphere daily. You can commit suicide with exhaust gases, can you imagine what billions of cars can do to our health? I am not worried about Earth. I am worried about my own health. Put money into electric cars and I'll join you. But the so-called climate change doesn't make sense to me.
Nuclear energy: Fusion reactors use more energy than they produce, so they are not feasible. Fission reactors produce radioactive waste which many people see as a problem.

Most other technologies use more energy than they consume, they have an advantage in areas that are remote from conventional sources of energy, and that is what makes them feasible there. They are not a solution for most areas however.

Replacing petroleum fuel in cars is not practical. Even if all of the US corn output was dedicated to making ethanol, there still wouldn't be enough. Not to mention that you would eliminate a major source of the worlds food in the process. electric cars are not an answer either, because they require electricity to power them up, and electricity is in short supply.

In the lifetime of our children, cars will become a luxury enjoyed by the wealthy. Average people will have to rely on mass transit or bicycles, which is going to fundamentally change the way of life of society. The culture of consumption will have to change, because the feedstock for making the materials we consume will dissappear. You will need to live near where you work. Faraway suberbs will become untenable. There is a societal sea change coming, and coming soon, that the ostrich mentality people refuse to see.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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CO2 doesn't effect climate.... And there is no warming at all. Where are all these tropical storms the alarmists say will increase as temperature goes up?
They are there, just not hitting land, so they don't make the news.
 

BenSisko

Banned
Aug 4, 2012
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They are there, just not hitting land, so they don't make the news.
During the past 6-years since Hurricane Katrina, global tropical cyclone frequency and energy have decreased dramatically, and are currently at near-historical record lows. According to a new peer-reviewed research paper accepted to be published, only 69 tropical storms were observed globally during 2010, the fewest in almost 40-years of reliable records.

Furthermore, when each storm’s intensity and duration were taken into account, the total global tropical cyclone accumulated energy (ACE) was found to have fallen by half to the lowest level since 1977.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/26/global-hurricane-activity-at-historical-record-lows-new-paper/

That's ALL hurricanes, not just land falling storms.
 

Dgodus

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Nov 5, 2011
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Here and There
Fixed that for you. :)

Facts:

What is occurring is not natural climatic variability. The periods of glaciation and warming over the last 3.5 million years (24 so far) are explained by variations in the Earth's orbit (The Milankovitch Cycles). The Earth's orbit moves closer to the sun, the Earth surface receives more solar energy, it warms up. It moves away, less solar energy it cools down. In the geological scale of time, we're due for another ice age: the earth's orbit is not getting closer to the sun. So that isn't causing the warming that most honest scientists see.

Also note that during those earlier interglacial periods, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere never exceeded 300ppm. It is close to 400ppm now and will likely hit 600ppm within a few decades. Please do not try and say that CO2 does not have a greenhouse effect because this is basic physics understood by all scientists for several hundred years. It is fact that is not in question by any knowledgeable person.

If we look at the Holocene Climatic Optimum (5,000 to 9,000 BCE), the name for a time period that the Aussie says no one uses any more, the climate was warmer and wetter on the Eurasian continent with 2-3 degrees warming in the Arctic and Northern Europe, but almost no warming in the tropics and cooling or no change in the southern hemisphere. A local climatic zone. The Holocene Climatic Optimum is predicted by the Milankovitch Cycles with the earth's axial tilt at 24 degrees at the time, its steepest value (currently it is 23.4 degrees). The northern Hemisphere was more exposed and received more solar energy while the southern hemisphere was less exposed and received less energy.

We know that the medieval warm period (about 950 to 1250 AD) was a localized weather condition in the northern hemisphere which saw about a 1 degree higher average temperature. Globally, the south was cooler and the average global temperature (the issue at hand) fell a bit, about 1 degree, during this "warm period". The current heating we are seeing is global in reach and warms both poles. So it is different from what occurred in these two previous events that the Aussie spoke of.

So lets blame volcanoes, methane or increased solar activity. Nope. Solar output has been dropping since 1940 so we should have been seeing cooling. but it's been warming instead. Methane. Methane is a more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2, but there is 200 times as much CO2 in the atmosphere as methane, so CO2 is the gas that provides the majority of the greenhouse effect of the gasses in our atmosphere. Volcanoes. Volcanoes are the cause of the nasty greenhouse gasses that cause the warming. Nope. Volcanoes erupt the staggering amount of about 300 million tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere each year. Human activities on the other hand emit only 29 billion tonnes per year, just 100 times what volcanoes put out.

The climate records show cooling / flat since 1998. Of course 1998 was a record El Nino year so in relation to that extra warm year caused by a known oceanographic condition, 1999 & 2000 look cool. They still fall in the top 20 hottest years ever recorded.

So we know that changes to solar output is not causing the warming that is happening. We know that orbital dynamics are not causing the warming that is happening. We know that Volcanic activities and methane gas emissions are not a major cause of the warming that is happening.
Curious as to where you've gathered your numbers from. I'm not for one side or another, but I did just google "earth's natural warming and cooling" and found

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

Within it claims....

Of the 186 billion tons of carbon from CO2 that enter earth's atmosphere each year from all sources, only 6 billion tons are from human activity. Approximately 90 billion tons come from biologic activity in earth's oceans and another 90 billion tons from such sources as volcanoes and decaying land plants.
as well as

At 380 parts per million CO2 is a minor constituent of earth's atmosphere-- less than 4/100ths of 1% of all gases present. Compared to former geologic times, earth's current atmosphere is CO2- impoverished.
There are other claims in that article that co2 has been on the rise for the past 18000 years, and that earth has seen these temp/co2 levels before roughly 120k - 140k years ago during the period before the last ice age.

Mainly I'm curious as to where you get the numbers of how co2 is being dumped into the atmosphere when I quickly google soemthing and get vastly different numbers show up.

I am of the mind we need to significantly adjust our lifestyle. Not because of global warming, which WOULD be occuring with or without us (we aren't helping, but it isn't as much as the doom/gloomers want to say), but because of scarcity of resources - THAT is a very real and imminent threat.
 

BenSisko

Banned
Aug 4, 2012
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Google is a wonderful tool for finding things that other people have linked to and followed when it appears on Google searches. It finds what is popular regardless of whether it is true or not. In this instance, I pulled out the latest copy of Skeptic magazine, the product of the Skeptic Society, that non-profit group of eclectic skeptics, including Richard Dawkins and Jared Diamond among its more recognizable members of its editorial board (http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/editorial_board.html), that promotes critical thinking and examines unusual claims, like UFOs, bigfoot, paranormal activities, Creationism, 911 conspiracies & climate change denial. It was handy and topical, so I used it. It's also usually good for a hoot at what the nutbars believe.

What one has to do in most of these fringe beliefs, like climate change denial, is give it the smell test. You have the majority of scientists working in pretty much obscurity insofar as the larger society is concerned for a modest wage at government labs and universities. They are not making much personal wealth or fame out of their research. They have their petty turf wars and idiosyncrasies like are found in most bureaucratic institutions. For the most part, most of them do their jobs honestly and obscurely. These folks say that the global climate is warming.

Then you have a few mavericks. Some on the warming side that make outrageous claims and some on the denial side doing the same. The mavericks are the folks you see on TV, interviewed in magazines & quoted by the talking heads in the media. The mavericks are making money and gaining fame in the wider society. They make the chattering classes chatter & take home much more money as a result. These are the folks with a vested interest in creating controversy because it pays them so well. So we hear about "Hockey Sticks" and squabbles about sharing data and how someone describes how one correlates data in different databases from different sensors manufactured to different tolerances.

As far as the vast majority of qualified scientists are concerned, global warming is about as settled as the theory of evolution. But there is no news in that so the media goes looking for folks who, for the right combination of money and fame, will say something that will entertain people.

Addendum
Oh, and by publishing articles debunking global warming denial (and they have published articles debunking some of the warming enthusiasts' extreme claims) they don't seem to feel that these mavericks fit their definition of skeptical thinkers.
The debate is not over. Global warming is NOT happening. Hence Climategate.
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BenSisko

Banned
Aug 4, 2012
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It isn't a debate, nor is it up for debate. It's scientific research. And it has been going on for many decades. As the research data has accumulated, gathered and analyzed by thousands of scientists all over the globe, the picture has become clearer. The articles supporting the theory of global warming are published in reputable, peer reviewed, ink on paper, scientific publications. The articles asserting that global warming is not occurring are published in economic magazines, political discourse magazines & popular news magazines. Many very reputable, but not reputable, peer reviewed scientific journals.

Denial is a political belief, not based on scientific fact.

You said a lot but didn't 'debunk' climategate. The emails are out, shows a CLEAR cover-up and fudging of numbers. CAN'T BE DEBATED.
 

chilli

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Jul 25, 2005
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You said a lot but didn't 'debunk' climategate. The emails are out, shows a CLEAR cover-up and fudging of numbers. CAN'T BE DEBATED.
When I wrote my post - I was talking about people like you.

Even when people far more educated and intelligent than you present you with clear evidence that man is causing climate change you still put your head in the ground and choose to be ignorant.
 
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