Teacher Strike

[DavidMR]

“It’s very labour-intensive and time-consuming,” says the Ontario principal

That is the reason, right there, that your stats are so low compared to the number of complaints. The management isn't keeping up with the paper work... if they did, then they have an iron clad method of removing a teacher. Note they don't actually define what needs to be done... they simply imply that it's "too much work" and allow you to dream up what that means.

You're right, CJ, it's Macleans balderdash.

Did you know that of ten thousand lawyers in BC a total of only 2 are disbarred in any one year? How would that compare to teachers?

What's left out in these figures is the fact that in many cases, once documentation is underway, the employee quits.

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

I asked my daughter if she felt there's a difference in quality between her teachers, and she said yes definately.

I then asked her who her favourite teacher was. She said her science teacher.

I asked why. She said because she's funny and interesting, she cares, she makes me enjoy the subject and I learn a lot.

My point is that these at the type of teachers, students should be able to gravite towards, rather than say her French teacher who she says doesn't care, confuses the students to the point that serveral students have switched from French immersion to english.

Why are so may posters opposed to the idea that there are good teachers and bad, and that tenure and seniority is an antiquated model to gauge a good teacher from a bad one. Personally I felt my daughters response was far more informative than that of DavidMR. who can't seem to get beyond the status quo.

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

It's always informative to hear from people who have children in school and whose main concern in that regard is not how well their kid is doing, but their intense anger over the idea that those providing the services would ever want a pay increase, and that pay increase would come from their taxes. I wonder if they react similarly when private suppliers of services for children, fast food, toys, sporting and music lessons, etc. increase their prices?

I know this is a concept that's going to be hard to grasp, but things are never about money, they are always about the value you receive.

This service, which is what this is, is no different. When I go to a lawyer I expect to receive the necessary legal information that justifies his fee. When I get a hair cut, I expect to like it. When I go to a dentist I expect my teeth to be eventually be in better shape then they were prior to seeing him. and I when I, or my children attend school, I expect them to learn, to and to not be subject to ransom everytime there's a financial dispute between themselves and their employer, which in this case happens to be indirectly the taxpayer.

I would also hope that educated and supposedly university educated professionals, can appreciate that borrowing $$$ on top of an already huge debt situation to appease their sense of victimization when there are so many other under funded agencies, is selfish.

I as a taxpayer, would sooner see that money directed towards increased social assistance, or to help battered wives, or to improve our health care system. Hell, I'd even be for more teachers to help with those students who are troubled in some manner. But wage increases..it's not even in the top 15 list as far as priorites are concerned.

And as for the argument that Alberta pays their teachers better, not only are they free to move, but here's one simple question, what's Alberta financial situation like relative to ours, or does that matter? Does it matter that this debt is indirectly being passed down to the next generation? The same generation who has to pay 300+K for a starter condo, and 1M for a home? Do you also want them to face tax increases as well?

I thought teachers were suppose to have some empathy if nothing else.

 

[DavidMR]

And as for the argument that Alberta pays their teachers better, not only are they free to move, but here's one simple question, what's Alberta financial situation like relative to ours, or does that matter? Does it matter that this debt is indirectly being passed down to the next generation? The same generation who has to pay 300+K for a starter condo, and 1M for a home? Do you also want them to face tax increases as well?

People are free to move, that's the point. BC employers have traditionally tried, where they can, to pay less and advertise the weather. You can do that up to a point. But at a 30% pay differential I personally think you're skating very close to the edge, and may already be over it. Once movement starts and creates gross shortages, it would be very difficult and expensive to stop and reverse it.



On revenues of $40.3B Alberta expects a deficit this year of nearly $900 million:

http://budget2012.alberta.ca/highlights/index.html

BC Budget for 2012 projects a deficit this year of $1B on revenues of $43B.

http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/2012/backgrounders/2012_Backgrounder_1.pdf

 

[DavidMR]

I think the 15% is a starting point for a bargain. I agree with the smaller class sizes, special needs help etc, and they deserve some sort of a raise for the shit they put up with, but asking for 15% maybe they are hoping for 3-5% and some other points?

The accompanying photo made this comment stand out in my mind. And elsewhere.

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

People are free to move, that's the point. BC employers have traditionally tried, where they can, to pay less and advertise the weather. You can do that up to a point. But at a 30% pay differential I personally think you're skating very close to the edge, and may already be over it. Once movement starts and creates gross shortages, it would be very difficult and expensive to stop and reverse it.



On revenues of $40.3B Alberta expects a deficit this year of nearly $900 million:

http://budget2012.alberta.ca/highlights/index.html

BC Budget for 2012 projects a deficit this year of $1B on revenues of $43B.

http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/2012/backgrounders/2012_Backgrounder_1.pdf

What about the bigger issue, which is the total debt, or debt per individual. Care to enlight us on that?

Wait, I'll save you the time. BC accumulated debt is 57.6B and Alberta's is 828M of which they have a 3.1B slosh fund to cover the this with.

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

People are free to move, that's the point. BC employers have traditionally tried, where they can, to pay less and advertise the weather. You can do that up to a point. But at a 30% pay differential I personally think you're skating very close to the edge, and may already be over it. Once movement starts and creates gross shortages, it would be very difficult and expensive to stop and reverse it.

The myths never stop.


http://bctf.ca/publications/NewsmagArticle.aspx?id=14942



There are so many critical and urgent education issues facing the K–12 system these days—class size, class composition, standardized testing—that there seems little energy left over for other questions. But they are out there, and I have one: Why, when the annual demand has been for only 600 to 1,200 new teachers across British Columbia, have the province’s teacher-training programs been producing, each year, between 1,800 and 2,000 new graduates?

The above figures, derived from statistics published in the Nov./Dec. 2006 issue of the Teacher, seem to confirm something I have long suspected—there are far too many certified teachers for the jobs actually available. Furthermore, as indicated by Ministry of Education teacher statistics, there is no danger of a sudden mass retirement, and therefore no need to oversupply teaching certificates. In 2006–07, BC public school teachers’ average years of experience was 13.4, and in all five-year groupings between the ages of 35 and 59, the teacher population is stable at about 6,000 (give or take a thousand). In other words, through retirement, teachers will be leaving the system at the rate of about 1,200 teachers a year—far less than the 1,800 to 2,000 education graduates currently being supplied to the system each year. Add to this declining student enrolment, and the demand for new teachers is even less.

 

[DavidMR]

The myths never stop.


http://bctf.ca/publications/NewsmagArticle.aspx?id=14942

There have been shortages in certain specialties, such as math, science, PE and French immersion. If there are too many graduates, no doubt that's a problem. However, a 30% wage differential for those you are employing is hard to justify on productivity grounds. Is the job really worth 30% less here, or is it time for some of that gap to be closed? What happens if the best decide they'll be the first to leave for a neighboring jurisdiction where they'd paid more and aren't constantly subjected to political hassle and negative punditry?

 

[Dgodus]

There have been shortages in certain specialties, such as math, science, PE and French immersion. If there are too many graduates, no doubt that's a problem. However, a 30% wage differential for those you are employing is hard to justify on productivity grounds. Is the job really worth 30% less here, or is it time for some of that gap to be closed? What happens if the best decide they'll be the first to leave for a neighboring jurisdiction where they'd paid more and aren't constantly subjected to political hassle and negative punditry?

If the only factor in which people were to decide where they live and work was pay rate this would be true. Reality is people chose jobs based on a myriad of factors like location, proximity to family, perks, etc, etc. In NB I would see about 25/hr with 2/hr pension, in SK it's 37/hr with 6/hr pension, AB is 42/hr with 4/hr pension + rrsp's. You would think people would be flocking out of NB trying to work in AB/SK, but they aren't. They have families they don't want to uproot, they have relatives they don't want to leave, they have mortages and a way of life they don't want to abandon. Alot will stick around and squeak out on one of the lowest wages in the Canadian union, some will travel 4-6 months a year, and a small percentage (like myself - no ties whatsoever to NB) jump at every opportunity to travel west and lobby for year round work out there.

Alot of tradesmen, teachers, nurses (trained, skilled jobs which don't have high requirements to join into) tend to be people that aren't solely driven by the dollar. Most simply want a more secure job they know they can go to everyday, plan a retirement and more importantly lead their lives how they want.

The fact that there aren't jobs available will have more teachers leaving than the fact other provinces get paid better.

 

[mercyshooter]

I asked my daughter if she felt there's a difference in quality between her teachers, and she said yes definately.

I then asked her who her favourite teacher was. She said her science teacher.

I asked why. She said because she's funny and interesting, she cares, she makes me enjoy the subject and I learn a lot.

My point is that these at the type of teachers, students should be able to gravite towards, rather than say her French teacher who she says doesn't care, confuses the students to the point that serveral students have switched from French immersion to english.

Why are so may posters opposed to the idea that there are good teachers and bad, and that tenure and seniority is an antiquated model to gauge a good teacher from a bad one. Personally I felt my daughters response was far more informative than that of DavidMR. who can't seem to get beyond the status quo.

That's why rate our teachers websites exist! We need to know whether or not the teachers are really doing their jobs well in order to give them the necessary reasonable salary raise. Or re-train, or sack them out.

 

[DavidMR]

What about the bigger issue, which is the total debt, or debt per individual. Care to enlight us on that?

Wait, I'll save you the time. BC accumulated debt is 57.6B and Alberta's is 828M of which they have a 3.1B slosh fund to cover the this with.

You ask a good question, for which there isn't a ready answer in terms of provincial debt and debt-to-GDP ratios. It will take a little digging. StatCan undoubtedly has something, but it may be a year or two behind.

 

[mercyshooter]

You ask a good question, for which there isn't a ready answer in terms of provincial debt and debt-to-GDP ratios. It will take a little digging. StatCan undoubtedly has something, but it may be a year or two behind.

According to Wikipedia, annual debt per canadian is about 35k!

 

[DavidMR]

According to Wikipedia, annual debt per canadian is about 35k!

Ah, yeah, well, I think wiki is good on a lot of things, but not sure about this! Besides, I don't think the idea of debt per capita is quite as relevant as debt in relation to GDP.

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

Ah, yeah, well, I think wiki is good on a lot of things, but not sure about this! Besides, I don't think the idea of debt per capita is quite as relevant as debt in relation to GDP.

I real question quickly becomes, since we're obviously fairly deep in debt and have limited resources, how best should these resources be spent. Do teachers need a raise more than those on social assistance? Do teachers need a raise, more than adding more resources to the overstreched medical system? Do teachers need a raise more than adding resources to assist them with with students who require more attention? Do teachers need a raise when our government resources are already stretched to the limit? Some will argue the competing argument is that MP's perhaps have recently gotten raises, the government spend 500M+ on fixing up BC place etc. And while those are legitimate grivances in my opinion, adding to the problem, by giving civil servants raises when we're already in debt isn't the solution even if a case can be made for it.

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

You ask a good question, for which there isn't a ready answer in terms of provincial debt and debt-to-GDP ratios. It will take a little digging. StatCan undoubtedly has something, but it may be a year or two behind.

Sure there is. BC's debt/GDP is about 16.5% and Alberta actually has a positive balance, so it's debt/GDP is negative (-6.2%)


http://www.bccheckup.com/bccheckup.php?cat=133

 

[DavidMR]

Sure there is. BC's debt/GDP is about 16.5% and Alberta actually has a positive balance, so it's debt/GDP is negative (-6.2%)


http://www.bccheckup.com/bccheckup.php?cat=133

Good digging. I didn't find that with a number of google searches.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

I real question quickly becomes, since we're obviously fairly deep in debt and have limited resources, how best should these resources be spent. Do teachers need a raise more than those on social assistance? Do teachers need a raise, more than adding more resources to the overstreched medical system? Do teachers need a raise more than adding resources to assist them with with students who require more attention? Do teachers need a raise when our government resources are already stretched to the limit? Some will argue the competing argument is that MP's perhaps have recently gotten raises, the government spend 500M+ on fixing up BC place etc. And while those are legitimate grivances in my opinion, adding to the problem, by giving civil servants raises when we're already in debt isn't the solution even if a case can be made for it.

good post - imho this is really getting to the root of the problem... PRIORITIES

for example, the mlas don't really give a shit about what they spend our money on, but they have to balance in which sectors of the working force they 'stimulate' employment. take the new roof for bc place for example, the torn previous roof could have been replaced for whatever, $180 million? that style of roof was perfectly good, the previous one lasted 25 years which in the roofing world is about as much as you get

the current new billion dollar roof has a much more complex design and is therefore much more subject to breakdowns, plus given the way our weather changes, there will be some years they will never get to retract it! however, the decision was made to 'upgrade' it during the worst financial conditions the construction labour sector has experienced in my lifetime. without projects like this, we would have lost construction workers to other parts of canada for sure. so the priority was to keep the workers, and hopefully keep their votes too

i mean can you imagine the ndp's response to rips in the roof of bc place? football fans bringing umbrellas to games would have become a commonplace occurrence while the teachers and nurses would have all been driving new cars! :crazy:

 

[DavidMR]

i mean can you imagine the ndp's response to rips in the roof of bc place? football fans bringing umbrellas to games would have become a commonplace occurrence while the teachers and nurses would have all been driving new cars! :crazy:

I think the NDP would have insisted on a more modest design, probably a non-retractable roof. I have only been in the stadium a couple of times and I found the atmosphere in the corridors etc. really oppressive, kind of like Stalinist architecture. Almost the prefect setting really for alcohol and drug fueled youth to riot with the cops after some heavy metal concert. I hope for the half billion they've been able to relieve a bit of that, though I really don't know how.


It's unfortunate really that David Anderson as federal regional minister refused to come to any agreement with Glen Clark on building the convention centre in the 1990s, when it would have helped an economy that was slowing down after housing volumes shrunk post 1993 and the Asian crisis sapped exports for a year or two. Had it been built when Clark wanted to, it would have been finished ahead of the boom in commodity prices that drove up construction costs all over the world. It's not inconceivable it could have been built for the budgetted cost of half a billion, instead of nearly $900 million.