Teacher Strike

[CJ Tylers]

Actually, I believe the real issues that the teachers have with bill 22 are different than the ones that the papers want you to hear about.

1) Bill 22 restricts or removes their rights to organize, something in contravention of international laws
2) Bill 22 seeks to "encourage good teachers" with extra pay, but then defines "good teachers" as those willing to accept more than 30 students in their classroom... a situation that leads to a marked drop in quality of education for students. In other words, only teachers who don't care will take on more students, basing their decision on extra funds

Last I heard, there were a few other labour code violating terms that the government wishes to impose via Bill 22, but I'm not privvy to exact details... so I can't comment on them. The bare bones of the Bill, however, is basically a regression of 2-3 contracts worth of gains made through collective bargaining.

As for the money issue, the teachers have taken wage freezes in exchange for classroom concessions designed to benefit the children over the last 3-4 contracts. Since the government has consistently retracted those concessions, the teachers are now saying "screw it, show us the money instead".

Imagine that you sign a contract in good faith with your employer; imgaine that you agree to take a substandard wage so that your work place has better/ergo equipment, energy saving/eco management, and makes sparkly unicorns for the homeless for added fun. Now imagine that, immediately after agreeing to that, your employer rips up your contract, refuses to negotiate in good faith...and tells you that "since you signed the last one at that wage, you shouldn't mind signing the next one at the same wage... except, we don't have any money for those other things that you traded extra money for... oh, and we want you to take a pay cut in other ways as well".

And before you say "good, let em get a real job!", ask yourself "would I be willing to baby sit evne one other persons brat of a child, let alone 30 of them?" I mean, if you want some 6 dollar an hour employee who doesn't give a rats ass to be in charge of overseeing your kids... well... good luck, you get what you pay for. Personally, I'd rather see the job done right (and for those paying into private schools, it's nice to be rich... isn't it? Remember, only a small fraction of your money actually goes into the schooling of your child.... the majority goes into profits for the private owners)


A note on provincial payscale:

- teachers take 10 years to reach peak pay scale
- 1st year teachers make 35k, after 5 years of university
- Peak pay is 65k/year, with masters and doctorate earning slightly larger sums
- VP's and Principals do make more, I believe Principals earn in the 80k range... but they are classified as administrators, rather than unionized teachers
- College/University instructors earn more, but that is more because they require Masters degrees to start with.

Hopefully this clarifies anybody who's wondering about "overpaid" teachers.

 

[Ray]

Actual numbers. My numbers were off.

Category 5: Minimum $45 909

Category 6: Maximum $81 707

http://bctf.ca/uploadedFiles/Public/BargainingContracts/2011-12SalaryRankings.pdf

 

[wilde]

Excerpt from a Vancouver Sun article: Voodoo accounting behind teachers' strike


When tax dollars are at stake, the public deserves to know the real costs of a proposed con-tract, if only to make an educated choice about which side to sup-port. It's our money, after all.

In this case, the disparity is huge. Consider a table of the opposing estimates the BCPSEA posted on its website.

One figure that jumps off the page is the estimated cost of the proposed increase in teachers' preparation times - those blocks of time in a teacher's school day needed to prepare lessons. The BCTF wants 150 minutes of prep time for elementary teachers, up from the current 90 minutes on average, and a doubling of the present allotment of prep time for secondary teachers.

According to the BCPSEA's chart, which uses figures sup-plied to it by the BCTF, the BCTF estimated the cost of increased prep time in the first year of the contract at $78,761,208.

The BCPSEA, on the other hand, estimated the cost for new prep times at - wait for it - $223,510,000. That's a difference of $144,748,792. That's a ton of tax dollars. And that's just for one year.

Or consider the difference in estimates for the proposed three-per-cent increase in salary. You would think that arriving at a dependable figure would be a simple matter of accounting, since the salaries and benefits of every teacher in the province are known quantities.

But no: The BCTF costs out that first-year three-per-cent increase at $65,178,352.

The BCPSEA costs it out at $82,279,342, a figure, the BCPSEA notes in the chart, that includes wage-sensitive benefits.

"We invited the BCTF to pro-vide us with the methodology it used to arrive at their figures," said BCPSEA spokeswoman Deborah Stewart, "but they declined."

(Attempts to get a comment from the BCTF by deadline Wednesday were unsuccessful.)

Extrapolating from those first-year figures, the BCPSEA estimated the total cost of the three-year contract to be just over $2.06 billion. Using the figures the BCTF supplied to it for the first-year estimates, the BCPSEA extrapolated that the BCTF's estimate for the total cost of the three-year contract would come in at just over $1.3 billion.

The difference?

About $755 million.

As a lay person who has no knowledge of accounting, it would be impossible for me to say which of the two estimates is the more accurate - though I have my suspicions.

What is certain is that such a wide disparity in estimates casts doubt on the whole bargaining process.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Vo...chers+strike/6269228/story.html#ixzz1oa29289n

 

[storm rider]

Where did you get the information that teachers have two months of paid vacation. They don't get pay in summer. They only get pay 10 months a year!

I dated a teacher and this subject came up in conversation.....yes they only get paid 10 months of the year but in June they get 3 months pay....it is up to the individuals to budget this money to last over July/August....this info was also confirmed by another teacher who volunteered as a 1st tee starter at Shaganappi Point golf course....he said that he got paid for the summer but he also said he loved to play golf as much as possible over the summer but could not afford it...so working 4-6 hours a day 3 days a week (if you want to call getting a tan and running the 1st tee work) when the guy had nothing but free time got him free golf for the summer...though it was free golf at a municipal golf course

SR

 

[CJ Tylers]

Yes, they can choose either higher monthly wages, but for only during the school year... or they can take a lower monthly wage but be paid out over the summer. Teachers can suppliment their income by teaching summer school, which some do.

As far as the hardest working teachers go, elementary teachers typically work extensive hours, well over a typical 8 hour work day... which may or may not include extra curricular sports supervision. High school teachers, however, do usually end up working a more standard work day... with a few of the more jaded ones working less if they can get away with it. Subs, well, they typically only work the nominal hours, unless they are very dedicated.

Once you get into post secondary, much of the instructors work is prepped by grad students and aides...I can't really comment on what hours they work.

 

[luvsdaty]

$86 grand I'd have a hard time getting out of bed to take a shit for that kind of money.Especially if you live in Van or Vic. After tax that's barely $50k & you need a masters degree to get it! I'd rather keep pulling wrenches & make $100k in 8 months.Especially baby sitting a bunch of snot nose brats,you couldn't pay me enough to do there job.

 

[Tugela]

Just curious, what do u guys think of the teacher strike? they greedy? they doing the right thing for kids? don't care?

I think they may have a valid point with bill 22 and class size and stuff, but not sure they can demand 15% pay raise with the current economic times.

Canada is the best educated country on the planet. Investing more money in education is not going to change that. What they are really talking about is making the education experience more entertaining, not more productive.

It is sort of like going out to eat. If you go to basic restuarant you get what you need to make it to the next day, but you are not entertained in the process. Alternatively you could go to the best place in town, and it would be a wonderful experience, but at the end of the day you still get the calories to make it to the next day, just like the cheap place. There is no payoff in investing in the fine restuarant at the end of the day. What you do need however, is to have your basic needs met. After that it is just entertainment.

Education is a lot like that. You can spend 15% more, but the final outcome is not going to be a whole lot different from what it is now.

 

[Tugela]

I find it funny how so many people, like storm rider here, will put down teachers all the time without thinking about what teachers have to put up with every day. Whenever some one says that, I just put it down to jealousy. If they have it so easy, and it is so easy to teach others, then why don't you become a teacher??? You can then get the same perks, and all that.

I used to be a teacher, a long time ago. It was one of the easier jobs I've done in my life. The only tough part is when you first start, in your first year when you have to organize your lesson plan from scratch. After that it is much easier and you do get tons of free time, much more so than pretty much any other job.

Getting a faculty position at a University is an even easier life still.

 

[Tugela]

A note on provincial payscale:

- teachers take 10 years to reach peak pay scale
- 1st year teachers make 35k, after 5 years of university
- Peak pay is 65k/year, with masters and doctorate earning slightly larger sums
- VP's and Principals do make more, I believe Principals earn in the 80k range... but they are classified as administrators, rather than unionized teachers
- College/University instructors earn more, but that is more because they require Masters degrees to start with.

Hopefully this clarifies anybody who's wondering about "overpaid" teachers.

How does that differ from everyone else with a university education?

 

[mimi]

Canada is the best educated country? When did you last sit down and talk to any of these kids? Kids in India are smarter.

In the sixties kids sat at their desks with their hands folded nicely even if they were rotten little shits.

Today those rotten little shits are running all over the class room smashing at will.

When was the last time one of your co-workers smashed everything on your desk? Would they be reprimanded? Hand one of these rotten shits over to the principal and wait for their parents to run to school to defend them.

Or have those parents show up to find out why you are reprimanding their little shit for beating up another kid.

School has changed. It is a gauntlet from Grade One.

There are kids in the class who have been identified with disabilities and have T.As and there are many more who are born of drug addicts and alcoholics and have not been assessed...just little time bombs waiting to burst.

I thought one day I might want to be a school teacher when I graduated from University...and then I spent 4 months volunteering...yeah!

I went into engineering instead and never looked back.

Oh, and all this crap on the radio about the poor parents, and what will they do without school...I was home alone with the flu at age 9 and the world didn't come to an end...I just farted around waiting for everyone to come home. My mom phoned from work periodically to check on me. Before my time kids as young as 9 and 10 were staying at home to watch younger siblings while parents were out on the farm. I've talked to those folks in seniors homes.

Why can't these parents leave their kids alone these days? Cause their kids are stupid shits who haven't a clue how to exist without close supervision. They dump them at school and expect the teachers to fix all the frecking problems...school is a glorified day care. Seriously..you're kid can't make his own lunch and watch 122 channels on tv, or surf the internet?

My mom brought my little brother to work with her when he was 6 and had a cold...and he was a naughty little bastard too...he was an angel (she says)....he minded his Ps and Qs at school, though!

Teachers....I respect them...give them a raise

 

[Hype149]

Some how before anyone attacking public school teachers, I wish you should pay a visit to some inner city schools . I have seen it. Some class rooms have 26-30 kids with 2-4 special need kids or perhaps another handful of labelled learning disabilities kids. With only one special need assistant helping the teacher, how can the teacher teach properly?

Some other schools have to provide students with breakfast and lunch because those are the only meals kids have in a day.Many kids are so poor,parents can't afford to buy food! As the school funding are so limited. I have also heard many teachers use their
pocket money to buy supplies for some school kids!

Don't listen to the Liberal lies, go and pay a visit to any inner city schools .If you have a heart ,you can sign up as a volunteer for a week or so. I guarantee you will change your opinion about public school teachers!

20 years ago when I started grade 12, 30 kids in a class was the norm and it was managable then. Why isnt' it now? We had the 2-4 "special needs kids" as well then. Those will never go away. I agree teachers need a fair contract, but I also see the need to be smart with our money. If they want more money, go work at a private school.

The BCTF is just big bullies trying to strong arm the people. A couple more days of parents losing pay, they will lose support.

 

[luvsdaty]

I would agree, teachers should de-certify & start there own private schools.

 

[YoungGun25]

The current educational problems are because we use schools as babysitters, not as schools.

That may be true, and I would agree with you; but it seems that the statement you are making is more against the curriculum, how it is assessed, and upheld.

Not about how the teachers and their union believe the government is unfairly treating them as working professionals.

I find it slightly hypocritical that teachers are 'negotiating' for the children but strike and essentially take the children hostage. While it is their right to strike and upholding that right is not my issue; I can't help but feel that there should be a better way to reach an agreement.

My managers over the past years have taught me 1 thing, "once you give something to somebody, it's difficult to take it back". ie. raises, smaller class sizes, etc.

The governments point of view makes a lot of sense to me in this economy. The unions here in BC have way too much power.

 

[Hoops]

Just wondering:
how much do nurses and police officers make in their first year?
Teachers about $44k

Also, what is the most they can make after they've maxed out their seniority?
Teachers about $80k

In addition, how much do they make compared to nurses and police in other provinces?
Teachers in ontario max out about $95k and apparently teach fewer classes.

 

[Lurker 123]

20 years ago when I started grade 12, 30 kids in a class was the norm and it was managable then. Why isnt' it now? We had the 2-4 "special needs kids" as well then. Those will never go away. I agree teachers need a fair contract, but I also see the need to be smart with our money. If they want more money, go work at a private school.

The world has changed a lot during the last 20 years. As I have seen so many kids nowadays come from dysfunctional families,i.e drugs, divorce and etc. which is very different from 20 years ago.

Again you were talking 30 students in a grade 12 classroom setting and I am talking about grade 4-7 students . I believe grade 12 students are more mature than elementary students.

In addition nowadays there are many refugee students from all over the world who do not speak a word of English. It is nearly impossible for a teacher to communicate with these group of new comer children.

As I suggested earlier go and visit any inner city elementary school in the Greater Vancouver areas to experience 1st hand yourself instead of listen to the media!

 

[mercyshooter]

The world has changed a lot during the last 20 years. As I have seen so many kids nowadays come from dysfunctional families,i.e drugs, divorce and etc. which is very different from 20 years ago.

Again you were talking 30 students in a grade 12 classroom setting and I am talking about grade 4-7 students . I believe grade 12 students are more mature than elementary students.

In addition nowadays there are many refugee students from all over the world who do not speak a word of English. It is nearly impossible for a teacher to communicate with these group of new comer children.

As I suggested earlier go and visit any inner city elementary school in the Greater Vancouver areas to experience 1st hand yourself instead of listen to the media!

Or you can hire more teachers that are able to help these new comer children, special needs, etc. But, this won't happen because the union will not allow!

 

[badbadboy]

To all those posting in this thread using the word "there" instead of "their"; its pretty easy to see you didn't pay much attention to these details when you were in school ound:

Interesting to note that for the most part, these same posters are the ones against the strike or teachers in general.

Just sayin.

:eyebrows:

 

[CJ Tylers]

Or you can hire more teachers that are able to help these new comer children, special needs, etc. But, this won't happen because the union will not allow!

Actually, the government is not allowing the hiring of any new aides, because of the net 0/0/0 mandate that they've set forth. If the teachers want to see new aides hired, the government would take it out of their current salaries.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Or you can hire more teachers that are able to help these new comer children, special needs, etc. But, this won't happen because the union will not allow!

i realize i'm not driving the price of my personal stock up by suggesting this, but if esl kids are a problem in the schools, the solution to the problem is to require that all students demonstrate an acceptable level of english comprehension. if they can't do that, they can't attend the public school system, period. i'll bet even money that a huge number of privately run schools would pop up whose sole purpose would be to teach english comprehension to esl students, and the competition for students would quickly drive the price of that service down to levels that could be afforded by the working immigrant parent(s)

end of problem

however, that would be too 'conservative' an agenda, and highly unlikely to be welcomed by the mainstream population, the teachers, and certainly not by the esl parents :doh: :fear:

 

[cheif]

A 15% raise. Are you crazy. Sure give them 15% but what are the nurses going to want next 25%. And if the nurses go on strike there doing it for the people and better health care. Bullshit. The role of any union is to get as much money for there members that's all. This will never end. 15% is way too high but again there doing it for the kids. I guess if air Canada goes on strike there doing to for the people. HahahahahaPa