sigh...

[Tugela]

Tugela you are absolutely correct in stating that we are judging merely based on what is reported in the media. It is easy for us all to jump to conclusions when we hear of any kind of crime before there is a conviction. I admit, that I was the first in this thread to jump on that bandwagon.... I apologize for jumping to conclusions myself, however when we bring the topic up in general whether these women are guilty or not.... the premise that this kind of thing can happen and it goes without any kind of repercussions to the child involved... and YES a 16 year old student is still a child, we need to recognize that this is not ok, that if the tables were turned and it were two male teachers involved with a 16 year old girl, many would be crying out in outrage.... I am merely pointing out that the we need to treat female perpetrators the same way, and that although this may be a so called "Wet Dream", for males, that over time this can create "Trust", issues for the male involved, not to mention other emotional factors, too may to list. If we say it's ok in this case then where do we draw the line?

There may be the redneck kind of mentality that fathers will say "Good job son", or something to that effect, but personally how many people here, men or women would want to send their child to school and have this kind of activity happen? I don't have a son, but it's certainly not something I would find acceptable, and is discouraging as a community as a whole, no to mention how intense these feelings are for the family or students subjected to this kind of abuse.

It doesn't create "trust issues", at least not for boys. Whenever you see commentary on the media about this sort of situation on the media, it is invariably women who are going on about how damaging all of this is to boys, when they really have no clue what they are talking about since they have never been teenage boys. Usually what they are trying to impose on the situation is the stereotypical female experience, where women (and especially girls) are seen as exploited and damaged by their sexual experiences. Girls are presented in these sorts of attitudes as beings incapable of sexual self awareness and consequently are "victims" of whatever situation they place themselves in, no matter how benign it might be. So they assume that boys are the same. Well, they are most certainly not.

If you watch any of those talking head shows when one of these cases comes up you will typically see a group of female commentators decrying it and complaining that men are ambivalent. The reason men are ambivalent is because they have all experienced life as a teenaged boy and know exactly what these kids are thinking and why they are doing what they do. Women don't. Women know what it feels like to be a teenage girl. And what they typically do (on the media anyway) is transpose those experiences onto boys, which is completely wrong.

If you look at this particular case you can pretty much guess what this kid is thinking, if these things really happened (which I seriously doubt). Trust me, he is NOT damaged in the slightest. The only people being damaged are the two women being accused in all of this.

 

[clu]

It doesn't create "trust issues", at least not for boys. Whenever you see commentary on the media about this sort of situation on the media, it is invariably women who are going on about how damaging all of this is to boys, when they really have no clue what they are talking about ...

Tugela, with all due respect, such sweeping generalities just aren't true. The spread of personalities and emotional responses is much wider within any gender than between the "typical" man and "typical" woman.

Plenty of experienced men (and women) can have their heads fucked with by an eager sexual partner that a bystander would envy. How is a kid, a newbie, going to come out of that less scathed? True, he might come out fine, but it depends on the details. He isn't going to be immune because he was a teenage boy.

Take the example of Chris Brown... That guy is super messed up and he was effectively sexually assaulted as a kid, but talks about it like it was normal. The normalization of that experience may be part of what made him the ass he is today.

 

[clu]

A friend of mine was assaulted/seduced (call it what you will) by a female instructor when he was a teen. I remember him talking to me late one night about it, and it was like he was still trying to process it, trying to come to terms with it. He seemed cautious to talk about how he really felt, and remarked basically any time he'd brought it up with someone else (maybe as a way of trying to figure it out in his head) they'd go "lucky dog" or the like and he'd just shut down and stop talking because he felt they didn't get it.

 

[uncleg]

I understand what you are saying, and I truly always like to hear both sides of a debate, but I don't think it is always so black and white. There are times that such activity can really mess around when a young persons mind.... that being said I had the biggest lust crush on my grad 12 English teacher... OMG, like really bad, but then again I was 19 at the time.

That must have been nice, 19 and still in school..........at 19 my mother was a widow, 6 months pregnant and the war still had two years to go. You can bet her concept of right, wrong, black and white were somewhat different then what your mother had. We grew up with that, and we grew up with what society has thrown at us as being right and wrong. I would suggest that to some significant degree that helps to determine how we see things in life. In grade 12 I was humping the girls gym teacher, miss high heels and short shorts. Didn't mess me up at all. Mind you I met her at the original Oil Can Harry's and she didn't know I was a student, though I learned she was a teacher. Didn't say nothing because, what were the odds she'd end up in my school.

Remember, it wasn't that long ago when girls could get married at 14 is some parts of North America, still can at 16 in some. Look at the age of consent, not exactly in the stratosphere is it ? What do you thing has more influence on an individual, biology or written law/society ? Let's face it, we got Bill C-36 coming down the tracks like a runaway freight train......are we getting off the tracks ? Nope, we're looking to see if we can lie down between the rails and have the train go over us.

 

[ddcanz]

It doesn't create "trust issues", at least not for boys. Whenever you see commentary on the media about this sort of situation on the media, it is invariably women who are going on about how damaging all of this is to boys, when they really have no clue what they are talking about since they have never been teenage boys. Usually what they are trying to impose on the situation is the stereotypical female experience, where women (and especially girls) are seen as exploited and damaged by their sexual experiences. Girls are presented in these sorts of attitudes as beings incapable of sexual self awareness and consequently are "victims" of whatever situation they place themselves in, no matter how benign it might be. So they assume that boys are the same. Well, they are most certainly not.

If you watch any of those talking head shows when one of these cases comes up you will typically see a group of female commentators decrying it and complaining that men are ambivalent. The reason men are ambivalent is because they have all experienced life as a teenaged boy and know exactly what these kids are thinking and why they are doing what they do. Women don't. Women know what it feels like to be a teenage girl. And what they typically do (on the media anyway) is transpose those experiences onto boys, which is completely wrong.

If you look at this particular case you can pretty much guess what this kid is thinking, if these things really happened (which I seriously doubt). Trust me, he is NOT damaged in the slightest. The only people being damaged are the two women being accused in all of this.

tugela You are wrong, (and you couldn't be more wrong if your name was Mr. Wrong and you were the mayor of Wrongville- [thanks Matt Sekeres]) regarding trust issues with boys- give it up already- you know not of what you speak, unless you have actually experienced it. Which I seriously doubt by your ongoing argumentative remarks. I personally guarantee that certain trust issues arise from this, and other baggage is tacked on as well. Been there, done that my friend. So stick to something you know about, continue to enlighten us on the skewed media perceptions etc.- your points on those matters are somewhat valid. Also, maybe open your mind up to a woman's point of view once in a while- or maybe you have certain "trust"' issues with them? Regardless of whether you agree with the female "talking heads" or not, women are great communicators of feelings, and tend to expose us males to another way of thinking. You should pay more attention, as YOU are the one coming across as a redneck here.

 

[Ms Erica Phoenix]

Remember, it wasn't that long ago when girls could get married at 14 is some parts of North America, still can at 16 in some. Look at the age of consent, not exactly in the stratosphere is it ? What do you thing has more influence on an individual, biology or written law/society ?

Yes...biology is a bitch, and adolescence is a 20th century social construct/convention/law, not biology.

 

[ddcanz]

A friend of mine was assaulted/seduced (call it what you will) by a female instructor when he was a teen. I remember him talking to me late one night about it, and it was like he was still trying to process it, trying to come to terms with it. He seemed cautious to talk about how he really felt, and remarked basically any time he'd brought it up with someone else (maybe as a way of trying to figure it out in his head) they'd go "lucky dog" or the like and he'd just shut down and stop talking because he felt they didn't get it.

Couldn't have said it better myself, clu. These issues can be carried for years and years until finally a tipping point is met, and the "victim" finally just lets it all out. My sympathies to your friend- I understand exactly where he is coming from.

 

[Fullhouse]

No, you just accepted that there was a recording of an orgy,.

Wow, Tugela,--- at times I wonder if your elevator goes all the way to the top, because of some of the ridiculous comments you make.

You keep insisting that I accepted that there was a recording of an orgy --- even though I keep saying ; IF they were recorded.

Tugela, I challenge you to show me where I said that I accepted that there was an orgy. ----IF you can do that, I promise I will never again do any 'verbal fencing' with you,
and I will stop thinking of you as 'the dull knife in the drawer'....

If you can't do that, then get off my case and bug somebody else.

 

[clu]

In grade 12 I was humping the girls gym teacher, miss high heels and short shorts. Didn't mess me up at all. Mind you I met her at the original Oil Can Harry's and she didn't know I was a student, though I learned she was a teacher. Didn't say nothing because, what were the odds she'd end up in my school.

The details are important. I lost my virginity as a teen to a girl five years older than me but she wasn't my teacher, instructor, etc. It makes a big difference just meeting someone who happens to be a teacher vs. getting it on with your own teacher, which might well have happened after building up a rapport possibly for years. With the latter, you're basically getting into "grooming" the kid.