SCC Decision...Thoughts?

[Tugela]

If Harper is not going to use the CPC majority to do something about abortion (a much hotter 'hot button' issue for religious fundamentalists), there is no reason for him to do it for prostitution.

The difference is that there is wide public support for abortion being legal. While the core of his party might not like it, the average Canadian is OK with abortion being available. So, taking an activist position on an issue like that is problematic for any party that is trying to keep a majority.

The situation is very different for prostitution however. Support for that issue is much narrower. At best you could say that the average Canadian doesn't care about the issue. There is no threat to his majority if he legislates against this issue as a result. Because it is not something people feel strongly about there is risk in making an issue of something people don't care (which makes them seem petty and have an agenda), so they were content to leave the status quo in place. Politically he can't be proactive, but he most certainly can be reactive. Now they will present this as a situation where they have been forced to do something by the SCoC. This allows them to follow an activist legislative route with little political risk, in fact it will probably be a political advantage.

The Liberals and NDP are not going to see any political capital to be gained in being portrayed as being on the side of prostitutes and johns, so I doubt they will oppose the government when it comes to the intent of the legislation. Their opposition would just be about things like the penalties and the wording. In fact, they are probably happy that this court decision came down on the Conservatives watch, since otherwise THEY would be the ones having to make it illegal. All three parties would probably have come up with fairly similar solutions to the problem created by the SCoC.

 

[Tugela]

My personal opinion about your theory regarding the Conservatives' SCC appointees having been given "instructions"? Complete and total balderdash.

For that matter, the size of the "close-minded 18th century moralistic base" in the CPC is at least equally matched by the size of the "classic conservative / libertarian" base, which believes that government should stay out of citizens' lives as much as possible and that the desire to do social policy meddling to achieve social engineering goals is a symptom of modern liberal nanny-statism.

You misunderstand conservative/libertarian views. They want government to stay out of THEIR lives. OTHER people (particularly those whose views don't correspond to theirs) require extensive government intervention.

So, you will see them say stuff like "I should be able to hire or fire employees based on my religious views", but heaven forbid if someone else does the same thing to them. Then they will be screaming for government to protect their rights.

 

[HankQuinlan]

Unfortunately, the work of advocates like Susi is only going to get harder. The only chance for realistic legislation (or no additional legislation) is to have a massive campaign to convince voters that criminalization of sex work is a bad idea. They will need money. This is much more difficult than convincing the Supreme Court, who are open to logic.

 

[susi]

Unfortunately, the work of advocates like Susi is only going to get harder. The only chance for realistic legislation (or no additional legislation) is to have a massive campaign to convince voters that criminalization of sex work is a bad idea. They will need money. This is much more difficult than convincing the Supreme Court, who are open to logic.

in all my work we ALWAYS stand up for buyers. we have been pushing the compassionate care issue at every opportunity. there's a great film from the scarlette alliance on the issue. recently a sex worker came from australia and presented the film and spoke on a panel. i lecture out a ubc, sfu. fraser valley university and always try to debunk the myths about who buyers are.

the john's voice research and the sex, safety and security project also help our cause.

i hate to admit it but people here are right. we need money.

i cannot afford to continue doing this work for free. erslist pays me an honorarium each month to support the work i do but between support for workers in distress and advocacy/ lobbying i am being paid about $3 an hour. i applied for one of the 2 newly created sex industry liaison positions at the city but did not get the job. i felt like that could give me the foundation i needed to be able to continue....

i am not sure how we can find the funds or how we could even accept donations and be accountable for the money. i guess we could form a non profit....call it something really plain like ...flowers of hope.....then people could donate that way....

i am really passionate about these issues and am positioned to be able to lobby against the nordic model but also need to pay my bills. i spend so much time at this work i somethimes can't afford my rent....

i bought a little butchershop which is starting to make things better but i still am coming up short all the time...i want to continue but i do need help...

open to suggestions here.....

 

[hornygandalf]

I think you are spot on Tugela about "... government to stay out of THEIR lives. OTHER people... require extensive government intervention." And part of that intervention is to build prisons to lock them away. There maybe internal divisions with some of the more moderate conservatives preferring a less interventionist approach, but I think party discipline will mean the will of the authoritarian leadership will prevail. Harper is generally a very good strategist. I'm not convinced this is the victory that it appears on the surface.

 

[Cock Throppled]

Surely, with the amount of money circulating in this profession it should be possible to help fund Susi.

After all, it's for the benefit of everyone involved

 

[hornygandalf]

I don't mean to be offensive at all Susi, and I have a high regard for the work you do, but I love the irony (or is it something else?) of you having bought a butcher shop. There is meat, and then there is meat.

 

[susi]

sausage handling...seemed a natural progression!!!

 

[Walk Softly]

sausage handling...seemed a natural progression!!!

LOL!!!

You're the best susi!

Sadly, I too think this is about to get harder.

Criminalizing sex work would neatly invalidate virtually all of the SCC's concerns/objections, please the really nut-job part of the CPC's voter base and not really bother many of their more main stream voters.

Even if it's later proven to be unconstitutional, the matter is put off for years as the whole process starts over at a provincial court level and works it's way up to the SCC.

As others have said, I hope I'm wrong!

"As for hopes of the demise of the harper Government":

Our returned Liberal (Not really!) provincial government should serve as a sobering reminder that a good dose of fear-mongering can stave off even the most overdue of changes in governance.

They already have quite effective attack ads airing against Trudeau the younger.

Interesting times indeed!

Peace! WS.

 

[Cock Throppled]

From Holland:
Concentrating on people trafficking does not help solve the problems in prostitution and Sweden is not a good example of how to deal with the sex industry, according to a leading Dutch expert in Trouw.

'Terms like people trafficking push the women into a victim role,' Hendrik Wagenaar told Trouw. 'Most prostitutes do not work under duress. And where there is pressure, they know how to avoid it.'

The professor has spent the past decade investigating prostitution policy in a number of countries.

Register

His remarks come at a time when the upper house of parliament is considering legislation which would require all prostitutes to register as sex workers, and clients to check whether the prostitute is registered or not.

In February it emerged MPs from the ruling Labour party and opposition ChristenUnie were visiting Sweden to assess prostitution policy there. It is illegal to visit a sex worker in Sweden.

Wagenaar recently looked at prostitution in the Netherlands and Austria (where it is legal), Sweden (where it is illegal) and New Zealand (where it is legal and sex workers are given influence on policy).

Focus

He concludes that policy works better where it is not constantly under a political magnifying glass.

According to Wagenaar, prostitution fares better where sex workers are able to organise themselves to improve their working conditions.

Sweden is not the example to follow, he says. 'Even if you criminalise the clients, it does not work. You see that in Sweden, where prostitution and people trafficking have not disappeared,' he told the paper.

Amsterdam is planning to raise the official prostitution age from 18 to 21 in an effort to protect more vulnerable young women from forced prostitution

 

[treveller]

sausage handling...seemed a natural progression!!!

It's the meat grinder that worries me. Cheers Susi

 

[PlayfulAlex]

in all my work we ALWAYS stand up for buyers. we have been pushing the compassionate care issue at every opportunity. there's a great film from the scarlette alliance on the issue. recently a sex worker came from australia and presented the film and spoke on a panel. i lecture out a ubc, sfu. fraser valley university and always try to debunk the myths about who buyers are.

the john's voice research and the sex, safety and security project also help our cause.

i hate to admit it but people here are right. we need money.

i cannot afford to continue doing this work for free. erslist pays me an honorarium each month to support the work i do but between support for workers in distress and advocacy/ lobbying i am being paid about $3 an hour. i applied for one of the 2 newly created sex industry liaison positions at the city but did not get the job. i felt like that could give me the foundation i needed to be able to continue....

i am not sure how we can find the funds or how we could even accept donations and be accountable for the money. i guess we could form a non profit....call it something really plain like ...flowers of hope.....then people could donate that way....

i am really passionate about these issues and am positioned to be able to lobby against the nordic model but also need to pay my bills. i spend so much time at this work i somethimes can't afford my rent....

i bought a little butchershop which is starting to make things better but i still am coming up short all the time...i want to continue but i do need help...

open to suggestions here.....

Sorry to hear this but any thinking person knows you've been doing this work 'from the side of your desk' forever! Sorry to hear that you didn't get the city job; I didn't realize that you wanted it, what with the butcher shop and all. Will they be announcing the successful candidates soon? Are they friends of this community, do we know yet?

I will be putting my thinking cap on, for some kind of financial assistance towards this end...

 

[cherise]

in all my work we ALWAYS stand up for buyers. we have been pushing the compassionate care issue at every opportunity. there's a great film from the scarlette alliance on the issue. recently a sex worker came from australia and presented the film and spoke on a panel. i lecture out a ubc, sfu. fraser valley university and always try to debunk the myths about who buyers are.

the john's voice research and the sex, safety and security project also help our cause.

i hate to admit it but people here are right. we need money.

i cannot afford to continue doing this work for free. erslist pays me an honorarium each month to support the work i do but between support for workers in distress and advocacy/ lobbying i am being paid about $3 an hour. i applied for one of the 2 newly created sex industry liaison positions at the city but did not get the job. i felt like that could give me the foundation i needed to be able to continue....

i am not sure how we can find the funds or how we could even accept donations and be accountable for the money. i guess we could form a non profit....call it something really plain like ...flowers of hope.....then people could donate that way....

i am really passionate about these issues and am positioned to be able to lobby against the nordic model but also need to pay my bills. i spend so much time at this work i somethimes can't afford my rent....

i bought a little butchershop which is starting to make things better but i still am coming up short all the time...i want to continue but i do need help...

open to suggestions here.....

perhaps you could open a special account and all of us ladies could maybe donate either a session every so often or a percentage or something?
afterall, we all benefit from what you are trying to accomplish

 

[PlayfulAlex]

perhaps you could open a special account and all of us ladies could maybe donate either a session every so often or a percentage or something?
after all, we all benefit from what you are trying to accomplish

Good idea, Miss Cherise, I would contribute to this. And, if we had other friends and pooners who wanted to do the same, maybe we could all simply make deposits anonymously into a bank account...I'd trust that lady with my life!

 

[VanessaofBC]

perhaps you could open a special account and all of us ladies could maybe donate either a session every so often or a percentage or something?
afterall, we all benefit from what you are trying to accomplish

I think that is a great idea. I was thinking something similiar I would totally be willing to donate one session per month to the cause. If Ten of us can do that a month it would be a lot of money!! And we already have 3, cherise, alex and I.!!

 

[hornygandalf]

There is a lot of solid, empirical research that needs to be done to counter the myths in this battle.
Just saw this story on CNN.com: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/27/opinion/wells-prostitution-victims/index.html?hpt=hp_c3
And http://www.trickedfilm.com
No doubt this will be used as part of the case to outlaw it altogether. There certainly are problems with trafficking, abuse and the such like, but forcing it underground is not going to solve those problems. This requires a much more nuanced approach, preferably backed by evidence, something that Adolph Harper and crew aren't particularly interested in.

 

[hornygandalf]

I think that is a great idea. I was thinking something similiar I would totally be willing to donate one session per month to the cause. If Ten of us can do that a month it would be a lot of money!! And we already have 3, cherise, alex and I.!!

And maybe have a voluntary/optional surcharge for pooners as well, so they can also contribute directly.

 

[Ms Erica Phoenix]

There is a lot of solid, empirical research that needs to be done to counter the myths in this battle.
No doubt this will be used as part of the case to outlaw it altogether. There certainly are problems with trafficking, abuse and the such like, but by forcing it underground is not going to solve those problems. This requires a much more nuanced approach, preferably backed by evidence, something that Adolph Harper and crew aren't particularly interested in.

We don't need evidence, we have moral outrage and righteous indignation on our side!

 

[hornygandalf]

But evidence helps... Will there be sufficient moral outrage and righteous indignation at the end of the day.

 

[hornygandalf]

We don't need evidence, we have moral outrage and righteous indignation on our side!

The thing is, there will be a media campaign to shift the viewpoint of the wider electorate to the side of the government. They will frame the issue in the way that suits their purposes best. Most people know very little about the issue beyond the normal stereotypes that are normally used. Believe me, a sophisticated communication campaign will be needed along with moral outrage and righteous indignation. I know something about communication and how the message can be distorted purely through the use of a particular frame, through choices of what to include and what not to include.