Questions for Granny and other SPs
- Thread starter shank
- Start date
no... if you really care about someone, you don't ask them to change just for you. You accept them the way they are if they are obviously happy and you only intervene when they are displeased with what is happening in their lives.
Actually, I truly disagree with you.
Where you must differentiate is in where the 'asking' is coming from. If it is coming from genuine care, genuine concern for your mates safety... then I don't think it's unacceptable.
Accepting people the way they are is just fine and dandy, but only to an extent. I'm not sure if I can get across to you what I mean by that & perhaps you'll misinterpret it anyways, but I'll take a shot at it.
What I said I don't think I could live with is the constant tension of 'what if'?
What's the difference between that and say a construction job?
True, in a construction job you can be maimed and killed. However, you (typically) have some safety training & training on the tools and jobs. Also, there are people working around you who can help you, medical personel on site and WCB also provides some measure of protection.
That is the case for most above board jobs... and all above board jobs must conform to WCB w/regards to safety. Also, employees are protected from human rights violations.
Now take an sp... her only real protection is her intuition on who she should screen out. While many have someone that checks in on them, still many more have no one. If something goes wrong, there is no one there (immediately) to help her. Help is usually at least a phone call away.
You really want to know why I'd ask a girl to quit being an sp, if I ever fell for one (and it was a mutual thing)? A number of years ago, I was chatting with a girl who worked in the industry. She told me that whenever a date went bad and she finally got home, she had to tell her little 7 yr old boy (single mother) that 'mommy 'fell down'. It was the only way she could explain the black eyes, bruises and other things.
Let's face it... while there are many men that would never do this, there are a good number that do. The fact that it's sort of an underground activity may also drive the numbers up.
That image is a haunting one for me... and it's why I'd never want a gf of mine to stay in the industry. I'd also ask someone I care about to stop smoking in the same way (I'm sure you'd argue with me on that as well)... if I care about them, I can't help but want them to be safe and healthy!
As for 'taking care' of her... well jeez... that just appeals to my caveman instincts
But seriously, I was only suggesting a temporary solution...after all, we're hypothetically talking about someone I care about... and if she's willing to comprimise by heeding my concerns, I'm more than willing to comprimise by helping her out until she's self sufficient again.
Who said anything about education? I wouldn't want to paint sp's into the corner of 'uneducated' granny. I'm sure many do have a good education and are either choosing to do this instead OR as an additional income.
You can disagree with me or criticize my opinion... but keep in mind where it's coming from. Also keep in mind that I use the words 'ask' not 'force'.
I understand how you may find what I say silly... after all, you are living the life. You're making good cash, living free and having a ball. But that's just you... many other girls might write an entirely different story.
Just my 2c.
Actually, I truly disagree with you.
Where you must differentiate is in where the 'asking' is coming from. If it is coming from genuine care, genuine concern for your mates safety... then I don't think it's unacceptable.
Accepting people the way they are is just fine and dandy, but only to an extent. I'm not sure if I can get across to you what I mean by that & perhaps you'll misinterpret it anyways, but I'll take a shot at it.
What I said I don't think I could live with is the constant tension of 'what if'?
What's the difference between that and say a construction job?
True, in a construction job you can be maimed and killed. However, you (typically) have some safety training & training on the tools and jobs. Also, there are people working around you who can help you, medical personel on site and WCB also provides some measure of protection.
That is the case for most above board jobs... and all above board jobs must conform to WCB w/regards to safety. Also, employees are protected from human rights violations.
Now take an sp... her only real protection is her intuition on who she should screen out. While many have someone that checks in on them, still many more have no one. If something goes wrong, there is no one there (immediately) to help her. Help is usually at least a phone call away.
You really want to know why I'd ask a girl to quit being an sp, if I ever fell for one (and it was a mutual thing)? A number of years ago, I was chatting with a girl who worked in the industry. She told me that whenever a date went bad and she finally got home, she had to tell her little 7 yr old boy (single mother) that 'mommy 'fell down'. It was the only way she could explain the black eyes, bruises and other things.
Let's face it... while there are many men that would never do this, there are a good number that do. The fact that it's sort of an underground activity may also drive the numbers up.
That image is a haunting one for me... and it's why I'd never want a gf of mine to stay in the industry. I'd also ask someone I care about to stop smoking in the same way (I'm sure you'd argue with me on that as well)... if I care about them, I can't help but want them to be safe and healthy!
As for 'taking care' of her... well jeez... that just appeals to my caveman instincts
But seriously, I was only suggesting a temporary solution...after all, we're hypothetically talking about someone I care about... and if she's willing to comprimise by heeding my concerns, I'm more than willing to comprimise by helping her out until she's self sufficient again.Who said anything about education? I wouldn't want to paint sp's into the corner of 'uneducated' granny. I'm sure many do have a good education and are either choosing to do this instead OR as an additional income.
You can disagree with me or criticize my opinion... but keep in mind where it's coming from. Also keep in mind that I use the words 'ask' not 'force'.
I understand how you may find what I say silly... after all, you are living the life. You're making good cash, living free and having a ball. But that's just you... many other girls might write an entirely different story.
Just my 2c.
20+ years in the business... I have yet to sport a black eye or for that matter, anything more than a bruise on my inner thigh (yes... bony men that bang away can actually cause me to bruise)... oh! and when they are doing it doggy fashion... sometimes at a cruicial moments, their strong fingers can bruise my hips as they grip me. Beyond that... on the rare occasion when things have gone wrong, I've always been sensible and consequently, have never been hurt. Now as a SW 24 years ago, I did get raped. But I've already said there is a distinct difference between SPs, MPs and the relatively unprotected SW.
I've never felt unsafe going on a call. I screen my calls personally and decide whether or not I go to see the fellow to whom I've been speaking. If I'm in doubt, I don't go. After all... if someone is unpleasant or rude on the phone, it is unlikely things will be better once I've arrived at his door.
I've been in a long-term relationship where, initially, my friend wanted me to quit. I tried to do other things but in the end, I came back to where I was happiest. The relationship didn't end because of my job; it ended because of his. He spent far too much time away because of his job and we grew apart instead of closer. Same story, different verse. It happens.
I've never felt unsafe going on a call. I screen my calls personally and decide whether or not I go to see the fellow to whom I've been speaking. If I'm in doubt, I don't go. After all... if someone is unpleasant or rude on the phone, it is unlikely things will be better once I've arrived at his door.
I've been in a long-term relationship where, initially, my friend wanted me to quit. I tried to do other things but in the end, I came back to where I was happiest. The relationship didn't end because of my job; it ended because of his. He spent far too much time away because of his job and we grew apart instead of closer. Same story, different verse. It happens.
"would you like that biggie sized today?"
Good catch phrase for the line of work your in now too. Sorry tried to resist but I couldn't.
Good catch phrase for the line of work your in now too.
Sorry tried to resist but I couldn't.i found this thread to be compelling and interesting. i had a "real" relationship with a sp in a mp and i am grateful for the insights and inside perspectives (good and bad) she shared with me. it was heart-breaking to hear the road she had walked before entering this profession. i really felt the power of the phrase "don't judge a person until you have walked a mile in their shoes" after i got to know her for real. For her limited (through no fault of her own) formal education, she was extremely articulate, sharp-tongued, and her thought processes matched any of my past non-sp girlfriends, many of which had one or two degrees. i can honestly say that given a better childhood, she would have been extremely successful in any academic setting.
of course, she was strikingly pretty and bordering on just plain beautiful at times. it did not work out for reasons that are too complicated to convey, but i really think that the AVERAGE CITIZEN who passes negative judgment on sp's is narrow-minded, intellectually arrogant, and it would be most interesting to see how that CITIZEN would have turned out if they had to walk the road that some sp's have had to take.
of course, she was strikingly pretty and bordering on just plain beautiful at times. it did not work out for reasons that are too complicated to convey, but i really think that the AVERAGE CITIZEN who passes negative judgment on sp's is narrow-minded, intellectually arrogant, and it would be most interesting to see how that CITIZEN would have turned out if they had to walk the road that some sp's have had to take.
You know I'd like to think I'd have the balls to handle my GF working in this business but I don't know if I could! Jesus I worry about girls I just see on a regular basis, there are too many f**ked up people in the world. It's kind of an over used idea but "I know I'm ok it's all you other guys I worry about"...
Then we get in to the Jealousy issue, I'm pretty comfortable with who I am sexually, my skill or lack of but still having a GF in this business puts a whole new pressure on your mind..
Who knows the only way I seem to meet women these days is work and this business maybe I'll have to deal with this sometime... In which case as with most things to do with love you either deal with it or you both move on..
oberon
Then we get in to the Jealousy issue, I'm pretty comfortable with who I am sexually, my skill or lack of but still having a GF in this business puts a whole new pressure on your mind..
Who knows the only way I seem to meet women these days is work and this business maybe I'll have to deal with this sometime... In which case as with most things to do with love you either deal with it or you both move on..
oberon
Well, I sure hope that I don't have to pay "extra" for "biggie sized" though.
It's never easy to have a gf who is a SP but nothing is easy in this world. Good stuffs never come easy anyway. It's tough but can be done. My 0.02
It's never easy to have a gf who is a SP but nothing is easy in this world. Good stuffs never come easy anyway. It's tough but can be done. My 0.02
the jealousy issue is complex because there are two forms of intimacy: physical and emotional. if i can be so bold as to re-state what Happy H said so eloquently in the post on page 1, "women are capable of having physical intimacy without necessarily having any emotional intimacy." Most men cannot get past this "apparent" paradox and therefore we as a gender feel jealousy if our partner has sex with someone else (however meaningless).
It is my submission (as i cannot legitimately speak for women on the point) that women are generally more concerned and place a greater value on emotional intimacy versus physical (this is not to say that women cannot enjoy sex, as they obviously do). this is why women would ask a "cheating" spouse the question "Do you love her?" as opposed to a man would would be more concerned with "did you have sex with him?"
i could handle my girlfriend sp working (for a while) because i could see that all the men she saw were just "tricks", but i did want her to consider leaving the business, mostly because i felt she was capable of finding something that made her feel better about herself. And yes, on some primal level as a man, i still did not want to have her sharing physical intimacy with ANY MEN.
As i said, it was more complicated on so many levels beyond any other relationship i have had.
It is my submission (as i cannot legitimately speak for women on the point) that women are generally more concerned and place a greater value on emotional intimacy versus physical (this is not to say that women cannot enjoy sex, as they obviously do). this is why women would ask a "cheating" spouse the question "Do you love her?" as opposed to a man would would be more concerned with "did you have sex with him?"
i could handle my girlfriend sp working (for a while) because i could see that all the men she saw were just "tricks", but i did want her to consider leaving the business, mostly because i felt she was capable of finding something that made her feel better about herself. And yes, on some primal level as a man, i still did not want to have her sharing physical intimacy with ANY MEN.
As i said, it was more complicated on so many levels beyond any other relationship i have had.
Very good and in depth analysis IceG! I agree with what you stated but also keep one thing in mind though. If you were with a SP g/f, you shouldn't feel that you were doing her a favor by rescuing her from this line of work. In your mind, you might think that she could do better and blah blah blah but in the end, it was the question of whether she did it voluntary or just to please you. Men like to play hero and White Knight but the reality is that most SPs do not need to be rescued. It is just like any other normal or "socially acceptable" job to them for what they do on a daily basis. I am sure that you won't be happy if your partner kept telling or pressuring you in a form or another to quit because you can do better right? With that in mind, the jealousy or the "not willing to share her with other men" mentality have to stop or else, the relationship will not last. However, if you can truly understand and look past the sharing physical intimacy issue, and not wanting to rescue her out of her job, then you have succeeded in being a SP's partner.
i know what you are saying, but she actually told me how unhappy she was in the business and how sometimes she really did hate doing it, but it was the only career she had ever known (apart from a brief stint dealing drugs) and the only way of life she had experienced.
i appreciate there are actually sp's who are content, self-aware, and feel fulfilled in this industry, but my girlfriend sp was not one of them. she wanted to change, but i do not think emotionally she was fully ready for what that really meant.
i appreciate there are actually sp's who are content, self-aware, and feel fulfilled in this industry, but my girlfriend sp was not one of them. she wanted to change, but i do not think emotionally she was fully ready for what that really meant.
Gotcha! One more thing I might want to add too IceG, when you were in love, you were blind! No pun intended!
Too many....
Wow, I have so much to say. So many thoughts. Forgive me if I lose you somewhere along the way.
Originally posted by IceG
Again originally posted by IceG
I have been the manager of three cosmetic companies (at the same time), worked my 80 (actually 100) hrs, and ran these companies to perfection, after cleaning up the messes left behind. I have never felt so unappreciated in my life (carrer wise). When I started as an SP, I was very lonely, and tired of the same crap that I kept getting from the men in my life, always wondering what was so wrong with me. As an SP, I have never felt better about myself. It restored the confidences I had lost and didn't think would get back. Yeah, there are mean men out there. But you know what? There are mean men everywhere, and I've been exposed to that kind of crap since I was young. I have never been treated so well as I have been by most of my clients. And they don't even really know me. And it probably works the other way as well, at least in some degree. I know I make alot of men feel good about themselves.
In those hours we all spend as SP and Pooner, walls come down and inhibitions fall to the floor with our clothes, and for once, we can be ourselves.
I can't think of a better job than that.
Wow, I have so much to say. So many thoughts. Forgive me if I lose you somewhere along the way.
Originally posted by IceG
Now, forgive me, as I don't mean to insult you or judge your opinions, but why is it that a person, man or woman, gains respect for their success, only when in an academic or higher profile corporate setting. People should be respected for any success they have managed to create, not just the ones that require a degree or two. (I'm saying this to the world in general IceG, not to you)
Again originally posted by IceG
I'm not picking on you, I swear, just giving my .02.
I have been the manager of three cosmetic companies (at the same time), worked my 80 (actually 100) hrs, and ran these companies to perfection, after cleaning up the messes left behind. I have never felt so unappreciated in my life (carrer wise). When I started as an SP, I was very lonely, and tired of the same crap that I kept getting from the men in my life, always wondering what was so wrong with me. As an SP, I have never felt better about myself. It restored the confidences I had lost and didn't think would get back. Yeah, there are mean men out there. But you know what? There are mean men everywhere, and I've been exposed to that kind of crap since I was young. I have never been treated so well as I have been by most of my clients. And they don't even really know me. And it probably works the other way as well, at least in some degree. I know I make alot of men feel good about themselves.
In those hours we all spend as SP and Pooner, walls come down and inhibitions fall to the floor with our clothes, and for once, we can be ourselves.
I can't think of a better job than that.
Well said, Sapphire.
As one of those academic/business types (successful by conventional standards), I really admire a woman who can make me, and a lot of other clients, feel like a great lover and appreciated as the most important man in your life (at the moment) for my personal qualities and attributes (or, perhaps, in spite of). If you can do that with a genuineness, and get satisfaction and enjoyment from it, then you have a great gift that keeps on giving. I can understand how that short term intimacy and genuine, mutual affection that your provide can sometimes be misinterpreted and abused by a client. Please enjoy what you have found in this profession (for our sake as well as yours), but continue to be careful.
As one of those academic/business types (successful by conventional standards), I really admire a woman who can make me, and a lot of other clients, feel like a great lover and appreciated as the most important man in your life (at the moment) for my personal qualities and attributes (or, perhaps, in spite of). If you can do that with a genuineness, and get satisfaction and enjoyment from it, then you have a great gift that keeps on giving. I can understand how that short term intimacy and genuine, mutual affection that your provide can sometimes be misinterpreted and abused by a client. Please enjoy what you have found in this profession (for our sake as well as yours), but continue to be careful.
Very well said Sapphire!
I am sorry to read about your bad experience. Yes, I am a bit slow to keep myself up to date on the threads. But you are a very intelligent and strong woman and I am sure that the incident made you an even stronger and better woman. Take care and listen to your heart.
I am sorry to read about your bad experience. Yes, I am a bit slow to keep myself up to date on the threads.
But you are a very intelligent and strong woman and I am sure that the incident made you an even stronger and better woman. Take care and listen to your heart.absolutely right Sapphire!! I too suffered it out... working my way from receptionist to office manager over a small lifetime. While some of my experiences were good, there's little I can pinpoint that was particularly satisfying. The least satisfying was working for the provincial government... so many cooks in the kitchen, you couldn't even catch sh*t by yourself, nevermind get an attaboy for something unique.
I love my job - people smile lots, say nice things and actually thank me after the time we spend together. I can't recall many thank yous in my previous life working 40 hours + weeks.
I love my job - people smile lots, say nice things and actually thank me after the time we spend together. I can't recall many thank yous in my previous life working 40 hours + weeks.
Sapphire, how do i respond to someone who apologetically uses my quotes (pertaining to my very personal relationship) out of context to make her own personal opinion known? Moreover, i have to respond without starting a feud with a woman (and board) who has just been violently sexually assaulted and has the deserved sympathy and empathy of all board readers.
I will start by saying that your position is that you are happy and content as a sp. I suggest your "I can't think of a better job than that" phrase embodies that sentiment. My old girlfriend/sp WAS NOT HAPPY nor content as a sp. SHE (not you or any other sp on this board) felt very badly about the work she was involved in. She wanted to be a child psychologist, if you have to know the graphic truth. This is the context my quotations were meant to be read within. You are an apple and she is an orange. Two vastly different attitudes and psyches in women doing similar work.
I know you were using my quotations for emphasis (of certain attitudes) and specific effect, but when it is a personal relationship that i was involved in, i hope you can see how it might upset me to see you use my words to portray a negative position, if only for your contrasting argument effect.
Peace.
I will start by saying that your position is that you are happy and content as a sp. I suggest your "I can't think of a better job than that" phrase embodies that sentiment. My old girlfriend/sp WAS NOT HAPPY nor content as a sp. SHE (not you or any other sp on this board) felt very badly about the work she was involved in. She wanted to be a child psychologist, if you have to know the graphic truth. This is the context my quotations were meant to be read within. You are an apple and she is an orange. Two vastly different attitudes and psyches in women doing similar work.
I know you were using my quotations for emphasis (of certain attitudes) and specific effect, but when it is a personal relationship that i was involved in, i hope you can see how it might upset me to see you use my words to portray a negative position, if only for your contrasting argument effect.
Peace.
Please, IceG, do not refrain from speaking your mind because of anything that has happened to me. We are all here to express our opinions, and I do not want to be the reason that you censor yourself. I appreciate the consideration, but I really don't want people to have to tip-toe when I'm in the room.
Having said that, back to the topic of conversation.
If your girlfriend was unhappy as an SP then the logical thing to do would be to stop being an SP. Yes, you said that it was the only carreer she had ever had and the only life she had ever known. I don't accept that as an excuse. If someone wants (or doesn't want) something bad enough, it's up to them to make it happen. There will be a million reasons or excuses not to leave what has become your life, and succumbing to them is accepting defeat. The bottom line is "Are you happy?" If not, change it. This applies to every person, in every situation, be it a relationship, a carreer, or anything that has that much impact on your life.
There's a scene in the movie "Fight Club" that showed me this with brutal clarity. Brad Pitt takes a convinience clerk into the alley behind the store and holds a gun to him. The clerk is an immigrant, and Brad Pitt asks him why he came to America, and what he wanted to do. (I'm kind of summing up). The clerk said he wanted to be a vet. (He's been in the country for several years). So Brad Pitt takes the mans wallet and tells him that if, in 3 months time, he's not on his way to becoming a vet, he'll come back and kill him.
Now, why is it that someone has to hold a gun to our head and threaten our lives before we will do what we want to do?
It might seem a little dramatic, but the core is true. We are all so scared of change and failure, that we stay stagnant and end up miserable. It's easier.
And I wasn't twisting your words around IceG. I did say that I wasn't picking on you and I was just putting in my .02. I used the quotes as a basis for my opinion, not to pry into your very personal relationship. Maybe you shouldn't have brought it up if it's that personal.
Having said that, back to the topic of conversation.
If your girlfriend was unhappy as an SP then the logical thing to do would be to stop being an SP. Yes, you said that it was the only carreer she had ever had and the only life she had ever known. I don't accept that as an excuse. If someone wants (or doesn't want) something bad enough, it's up to them to make it happen. There will be a million reasons or excuses not to leave what has become your life, and succumbing to them is accepting defeat. The bottom line is "Are you happy?" If not, change it. This applies to every person, in every situation, be it a relationship, a carreer, or anything that has that much impact on your life.
There's a scene in the movie "Fight Club" that showed me this with brutal clarity. Brad Pitt takes a convinience clerk into the alley behind the store and holds a gun to him. The clerk is an immigrant, and Brad Pitt asks him why he came to America, and what he wanted to do. (I'm kind of summing up). The clerk said he wanted to be a vet. (He's been in the country for several years). So Brad Pitt takes the mans wallet and tells him that if, in 3 months time, he's not on his way to becoming a vet, he'll come back and kill him.
Now, why is it that someone has to hold a gun to our head and threaten our lives before we will do what we want to do?
It might seem a little dramatic, but the core is true. We are all so scared of change and failure, that we stay stagnant and end up miserable. It's easier.
And I wasn't twisting your words around IceG. I did say that I wasn't picking on you and I was just putting in my .02. I used the quotes as a basis for my opinion, not to pry into your very personal relationship. Maybe you shouldn't have brought it up if it's that personal.
it is not THAT personal or i would have nary said a peep. fine, if i do not have to wear kid gloves, then if you are going to use my words for argumentative effect, THEN AT LEAST QUOTE ME CORRECTLY. I spelled successful not succesfull as you quote me.
if you want to portray me as the wrong "moral certainty" attitude, then at least get my spelling correct. You lose alot of credibility when you quote someone out of context and you lose even more when you actually misquote them. Everyone makes typos, but when you claim to quote someone, you have to be held to a higher standard.
Regarding fight club, i agree, it is a great movie. it is an excellent point that "what does it take in modern society to make us feel alive?"
Lastly, now that we are acquainted and have exchanged personal stories, i really hope you go to the police and have your fucked up freak ex-client charged and convicted. i know that is your decision, but i hope you put him away.
if you want to portray me as the wrong "moral certainty" attitude, then at least get my spelling correct. You lose alot of credibility when you quote someone out of context and you lose even more when you actually misquote them. Everyone makes typos, but when you claim to quote someone, you have to be held to a higher standard.
Regarding fight club, i agree, it is a great movie. it is an excellent point that "what does it take in modern society to make us feel alive?"
Lastly, now that we are acquainted and have exchanged personal stories, i really hope you go to the police and have your fucked up freak ex-client charged and convicted. i know that is your decision, but i hope you put him away.
