Question about gas prices

[licks2nite]

NAFTA dispute resolution provision relates to disputes between the parties to NAFTA (i.e. Canada, US and Mexico). Kinder Morgan (previous owner of TMX) is not a party to NAFTA). For example, when the US slapped duties on Canadian softwood lumber, Canada could use the dispute resolution provision to challenge those duties - has nothing to do with companies challenging a country.

From Google today:

Chapter 19 allows companies that feel their products have been unfairly hit with anti-dumping or countervailing duties to request arbitration.

Chapter 11 establishes a framework of rules and disciplines that provides investors from NAFTA countries with a predictable, rules-based investment climate, as well as dispute settlement procedures which are designed to provide timely recourse to an impartial tribunal.

NAFTA will regulate areas far beyond the traditional focus of trade agreements, including issues ranging from investment to intellectual property and public health.

From page 91 of this article: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1344&context=djcil
In NAFTA, the GATT provision was incorporated by prohibiting environmental regulations from presenting "unnecessary obstacles" to trade.

 

[appleomac]

From Google today:

Chapter 19 allows companies that feel their products have been unfairly hit with anti-dumping or countervailing duties to request arbitration.

Chapter 11 establishes a framework of rules and disciplines that provides investors from NAFTA countries with a predictable, rules-based investment climate, as well as dispute settlement procedures which are designed to provide timely recourse to an impartial tribunal.

NAFTA will regulate areas far beyond the traditional focus of trade agreements, including issues ranging from investment to intellectual property and public health.

From page 91 of this article: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1344&context=djcil
In NAFTA, the GATT provision was incorporated by prohibiting environmental regulations from presenting "unnecessary obstacles" to trade.

And any Canadian regulation regulating Canadian business operating in Canada is not a barrier to trade, trade being cross border commerce. A Canadian company may not like certain regulations, but that does not mean Kinder Morgan would have any claim against Canada under NAFTA. Kinder Morgan operating a pipeline in Canada is not trading, per se, at least in the NAFTA trade sense.

 

[appleomac]

From Google today:

Chapter 19 allows companies that feel their products have been unfairly hit with anti-dumping or countervailing duties to request arbitration.

Chapter 11 establishes a framework of rules and disciplines that provides investors from NAFTA countries with a predictable, rules-based investment climate, as well as dispute settlement procedures which are designed to provide timely recourse to an impartial tribunal.

NAFTA will regulate areas far beyond the traditional focus of trade agreements, including issues ranging from investment to intellectual property and public health.

From page 91 of this article: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1344&context=djcil
In NAFTA, the GATT provision was incorporated by prohibiting environmental regulations from presenting "unnecessary obstacles" to trade.

And your description of Chapter 19 appears to be from this CBC article:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wednesday-nafta-chapter19-1.4803246

Perhaps learn about Chapter 19 by actually reading the actual text of Chapter 19.

http://www.sice.oas.org/trade/nafta/chap-191.asp

 

[marsvolta]

gas prices are high because BIG OIL own the whole value chain and have been working on that long play for the last 30 years. they've formed oligarchies that collude indirectly. the whole refinery story is just that... a story. its a monopoly.

https://globalnews.ca/news/2178192/heres-why-gas-prices-are-climbing-in-canada-while-oil-plummets/

Albertans and other Canadians help support these oligarchies through their sheer stupidity and decades of concentrated disinformation and propaganda.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/is-there-a-deep-state-in-albertas-oil-industry/

Bitumen royalties bring in less money than liquor and gambling! and yet, all the drama about pipelines!

https://www.alberta.ca/budget-revenue.aspx

 

[appleomac]

gas prices are high because BIG OIL own the whole value chain and have been working on that long play for the last 30 years. they've formed oligarchies that collude indirectly. the whole refinery story is just that... a story. its a monopoly.

https://globalnews.ca/news/2178192/heres-why-gas-prices-are-climbing-in-canada-while-oil-plummets/

Albertans and other Canadians help support these oligarchies through their sheer stupidity and decades of concentrated disinformation and propaganda.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/is-there-a-deep-state-in-albertas-oil-industry/

Bitumen royalties bring in less money than liquor and gambling! and yet, all the drama about pipelines!

https://www.alberta.ca/budget-revenue.aspx

You call it a monopoly; yet you've previously advocated nationalizing oil - government owning the entire value chain is more a monopoly than the system we have now.

 

[marsvolta]

You call it a monopoly; yet you've previously advocated nationalizing oil - government owning the entire value chain is more a monopoly than the system we have now.

damn right! cheap gas and money in our pockets instead of international deep state cartels bilking us out of $trillions... NATIONALIZE!

 

[appleomac]

damn right! cheap gas and money in our pockets instead of international deep state cartels bilking us out of $trillions... NATIONALIZE!

Now tell us how you plan to nationalize the oil and gas industry in Canada. It's one thing to have a conclusion; but you have not provided an explanation of how to get to that desired outcome. What will it cost Canadian taxpayers to nationalize the oil and gas industry? What mechanism are proposing to accomplish this task? Federal government expropriation powers? You want to nationalize oil and gas, fair enough, you're entitled to your desires/opinions - but at the very least, please tell us all how much it will cost us. One pipeline cost us $4 billion; what will the cost be to buy all Canadian oil and gas assets? I suspect you never contemplated that part of the equation.

 

[appleomac]

damn right! cheap gas and money in our pockets instead of international deep state cartels bilking us out of $trillions... NATIONALIZE!

You lament the fact that you personally are not profiting from oil and gas. Have you asked yourself why any company is entitled to profits (which by the way, no company that goes into business is guaranteed profits)? It's because a business takes the risk in investing it's capital for the shot at earning profits. They take the risk and if there are profits to be made, they are rewarded with those profits for having taken the risk. Apple took a risk, and their shareholders have been rewarded for taking that risk. You can profit from oil and gas, simply buy oil and gas stocks. In fact; if you own shares in a moderate risk well diversified Canadian mutual fund, you probably indirectly own some shares in oil and gas stocks!

 

[sybian]

damn right! cheap gas and money in our pockets instead of international deep state cartels bilking us out of $trillions... NATIONALIZE!

Now tell us how you plan to nationalize the oil and gas industry in Canada. It's one thing to have a conclusion; but you have not provided an explanation of how to get to that desired outcome. What will it cost Canadian taxpayers to nationalize the oil and gas industry? What mechanism are proposing to accomplish this task? Federal government expropriation powers? You want to nationalize oil and gas, fair enough, you're entitled to your desires/opinions - but at the very least, please tell us all how much it will cost us. One pipeline cost us $4 billion; what will the cost be to buy all Canadian oil and gas assets? I suspect you never contemplated that part of the equation.

ForumMod and I rarely see eye to eye on a lot of shit.....but he's right, there's a couple of people around here that really need to get laid, and worry less about the Petroleum Industry.

 

[appleomac]

damn right! cheap gas and money in our pockets instead of international deep state cartels bilking us out of $trillions... NATIONALIZE!

And since you have often cited Norway...

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Norway/gasoline_prices/

 

[storm rider]

damn right! cheap gas and money in our pockets instead of international deep state cartels bilking us out of $trillions... NATIONALIZE!

You obviously never suffered under Pierre Trudeau's National Energy Program.Dont worry though as you get to experience it for the second time at Justine Trudeau brings in NEP 2.0 with his Carbon Tax to finish the job his father started.

As for nationalizing OIL......that has worked out for Venezueala just so fucking sweet has it not?

SR

 

[marsvolta]

And since you have often cited Norway...

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Norway/gasoline_prices/

Great site! Yeah, go figure... Not sure how the Norwegians price their retail gas but they vote and so they decide. But more importantly, check out the whole list... No other oil rich nations pay what we have for gas... not even close. We're getting bilked as usual.

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

And I'm not sure how some can associate the failing of the Venezuelan state to nationalized oil. Greedy fucks sabotaged democracy just so they could get their hands on that oil money. They'll get hung from trees soon enough.

 

[appleomac]

Great site! Yeah, go figure... Not sure how the Norwegians price their retail gas but they vote and so they decide. But more importantly, check out the whole list... No other oil rich nations pay what we have for gas... not even close. We're getting bilked as usual.

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

And I'm not sure how some can associate the failing of the Venezuelan state to nationalized oil. Greedy fucks sabotaged democracy just so they could get their hands on that oil money. They'll get hung from trees soon enough.

Yes, gasoline is expensive. BC gasoline is more expensive than gasoline in other provinces. Interesting fact; BC is the only region in Canada that does not have enough refining capacity to meet its own demand for gasoline. The prairies, eastern Canada and Atlantic Canada all refine more gasoline than they need. Their gasoline prices are lower than BC, which highlights the benefits (from a consumer's perspective) of oversupply. BC has said, at least the BC government has said, they do not want more pipeline capacity to bring in more crude. That situation will not change anytime soon, at least as not as far as I can see. Having the Feds spend $100's of billions to nationalize oil production will not change the BC government position on no more pipeline capacity. In fact; even more pipeline capacity will not guarantee more refining capacity, another problem with BC - many in the oil business have written off BC as a place to build more oil infrastructure, given what appears to be BC's opposition to anything oil. It's an ugly situation that happened over the course of decades. There is no easy solution, that's what no politician is willing to admit to and apparently otherwise reasonable people don't seem to comprehend. BC is like a big airport, the rest of Canada is like a big mall. We pay airport Starbucks price for our coffee, everyone else in Canada pays normal Starbucks price - and that sucks for people in BC that buy Starbucks, it's that simple.

 

[appleomac]

Great site! Yeah, go figure... Not sure how the Norwegians price their retail gas but they vote and so they decide. But more importantly, check out the whole list... No other oil rich nations pay what we have for gas... not even close. We're getting bilked as usual.

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

And I'm not sure how some can associate the failing of the Venezuelan state to nationalized oil. Greedy fucks sabotaged democracy just so they could get their hands on that oil money. They'll get hung from trees soon enough.

Explain gasoline prices globally, sure! The price of gasoline globally is actually not correlated to how much oil reserves a country has. That is part of it, closer access is better than say no access, like a country such as Japan. Prices of things in general are more correlated to standard of living. A comparable measure of standard of living would be GDP per capita. Higher GDP per capita means higher prices for things in general. Norway's GDP per capital is like $76,000, Canadian GDP per capita is less than 50,000, Venezuela is less than 15,000 and Saudi is around $20,000. Now rank rank gasoline prices of those countries, not surprisingly, Norway is the most, followed by Canada, Saudi and Venezuela.

 

[marsvolta]

First, you recite the usual bullshit oil company excuses about refineries. Read the articles I supplied. The majors own everything in the value chain. They can make any excuses they want. Remember gas price wars? A distant memory that will never happen in, at least Western Canada, because of the oligarchy. I have a colleague whose family used to own an independent gas station. Shell offered to buy them out and told them they'd not sell gas to them anymore. It was a pretty easy decision.

And as I've stated before. Albertans have been indoctrinated to take it up the ass for big oil... They're pretty special. They get all upset when other provinces won't do the same for nothing. When other Canadians see Rachel or Jason flipping out about it... They change the channel. Gas isn't getting any cheaper for them. Who cares about Alberta! Seriously! Wtf have they done for anybody beside give us the Social Credit party of Canada and a host of other nut jobs!

 

[appleomac]

First, you recite the usual bullshit oil company excuses about refineries. Read the articles I supplied. The majors own everything in the value chain. They can make any excuses they want. Remember gas price wars? A distant memory that will never happen in, at least Western Canada, because of the oligarchy. I have a colleague whose family used to own an independent gas station. She'll offered to buy them out and told them they'd not sell gas to them anymore. It was a pretty easy decision.

And as I've stated before. Albertans have been indoctrinated to take it up the ass for big oil... They're pretty special. They get all upset when other provinces won't do the same for nothing. When other Canadians see Rachel or Jason flipping out about it... They change the channel. Gas isn't getting any cheaper for them. Who cares about Alberta! Seriously! Wtf have they done for anybody beside give us the Social Credit party of Canada and a host of other nut jobs!

Articles don't matter. Facts matter. Here's some facts, BC's entire refining capacity is about 67,000 barrels per day and BC consumes close to 100,000 barrels of gasoline per day. Current TMX capacity (without expansion) is something like 300,000 barrels of crude per day. There's plenty of crude coming in to meet BC demand, but not enough refining capacity, so the rest of the crude (like most Canadian crude) is sold into the US and we buy back that crude in the form of gasoline from Washington State refineries. BC long ceded it's refining capacity to the US. Look at Alberta, a population somewhat close to BC's and it's refining capacity is over 400,000 barrels per day. Similar population so let's assume similar daily demand. BC refines 67% of its needs and Alberta refines 400% (assuming similar demand) of its needs. And look at the price at the pumps between Alberta and BC.

 

[Forum mod]

enough. thread closed.