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purchasing gold certificates

cruiser

New member
Mar 17, 2007
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This message appeals to anybody who buys/sells precious metals.

I was doing some research and was told about gold certificates. Basically instead of having to purchase actual "gold", a person buys a certificate that shows they own xxx number dollars of gold on a piece of paper.

First, am I understanding this correctly ? What kind of costs are involved at buying a gold certificate? Can you go down to your local bank and buy them?

Anybody here ever purchased them ? How about for any other precious metals?

Appreciate any feedback as this is an area I would like to get more info on.

thanks,
Cruiser
 

amanut

Member
Aug 21, 2005
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I am a fan of the real thing. Certificates don't have to be backed by the actual commodity. In other words, you are paying for a piece of paper that may be worthless. Buy the real thing and have the bank store it for you for a small fee.
 

finchs

New member
Feb 20, 2010
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Not Calgary
Paper is worth nothing, except your belief in someone else's word that it is. Like a contract it's only good if you both live up to your side of the bargain, and so do they.

Paper money used to be backed by gold, in fact you used to be able to go to a bank and trade your paper money for the gold it represented. Then the rules changed, it became simply paper.

If your willing to exchange your paper money for another 'peace' of paper, and you trust the new publishers more than metal in your hand, than good luck to you.

Fools gold would be worth more today than the paper our money is printed on.

One vital key to running a con on someone is what economists sometimes call “asymmetric information” — one side simply knows much more than the other in a transaction. With most Americans incapable of even describing the cost of a home loan in 2003, you can assume that the vast majority of mortgages sold during the 2000s decade were classic asynchronous transactions. The stage was set for the biggest con in human history.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34827516/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/page/2/
 

threepeat

New member
Sep 20, 2004
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Edmonton
I was doing some research and was told about gold certificates. Basically instead of having to purchase actual "gold", a person buys a certificate that shows they own xxx number dollars of gold on a piece of paper.

First, am I understanding this correctly ?
Yes, you are understanding it correctly.
What kind of costs are involved at buying a gold certificate?
You will get charged a premium over the spot price of gold, but it will be significantly smaller than if you bought the actual physical metal.
Can you go down to your local bank and buy them?
Yes. I'd recommend the nearest Scotiabank, because their subsidiary ScotiaMocatta is the largest precious metals bank in the world.
Appreciate any feedback as this is an area I would like to get more info on.
I personally wouldn't recommend gold certificates, and here's why. You can get two types of gold certificates: allocated and unallocated. Allocated means they have a serial numbered bar with your name on it that no one else can have. Unallocated means they will just give you any old bar from their inventory at the time you redeem. The catch is that there are waaaaay more gold certificates in circulation than there are actual gold bars -- it's a fractional reserve system just like your local bank. And like your local bank, if everyone tried to pull all their cash out at once the bank would quickly go out of business. If everyone tried to redeem their gold certificates at the same time, probably only the first 10% or even less would actually walk away with metal. The rest would just get an IOU. If you buy an allocated certificate your odds of getting the metal on redemption are better, but then you may as well have just bought the metal.

If you are buying gold as money of last resort if the world's paper currencies implode, you definitely should be buying the physical metal itself and storing it at your home. Anything less exposes you to counterparty risk. That is, if the bank that will redeem your certificate goes out of business, your paper gold means nothing. Or if you store it in a safety deposit box, in a true financial apocalypse scenario the bank may not be open or open in a timely fashion so you can get your gold out. Worst case, it could simply be confiscated as what FDR did in the U.S. during the Great Depression -- your gold would be taken in the interests of national security and in return you will get a bunch of dollars, which defeats the whole purpose of getting it.

That is the true gold bug view of it. Don't settle for anything less than the physical metal in your possession. It's like if you were Noah and God told you there was going to be a flood. Do you want an actual ark ready, or do you want the design of an ark written on a piece of paper?

However, if you don't want gold as money-of-last-resort insurance and are simply looking at it as an investment to trade, I would just purchase the gold and silver ETFs sold on the U.S. stock exchanges. The ticker symbols are GLD and SLV respectively. That way you will get exposure to the precious metals price without paying any premiums, and you can easily trade in and out of them.
 

mobile1

New member
Aug 15, 2009
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I am a fan of the real thing. Certificates don't have to be backed by the actual commodity. In other words, you are paying for a piece of paper that may be worthless. Buy the real thing and have the bank store it for you for a small fee.
This means that you would not buy Gold ETFs. By the way, I think it would be good to wait until Gold dropped to 900oz, and until then get ProShares SDOW which is DOW x3 on inverse. I believe that buying the dow jones on inverse, which is like shorting it, until gold reached 900oz would be a sure bet. You can make money betting that the US will tank further before buying the physical gold so that you can make money both ways.
 

bcneil

I am from BC
Aug 24, 2007
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36
How much gold do you plan to get?
Coins and bars are fun and all, but you do pay a premium to get them.
Certificates are the best way to go to make profit.
Forget the nonsense, that its just a piece of paper, or not really worth anything.
I have never heard of anyone not being able to sell a gold certificate for its worth.
 

cruiser

New member
Mar 17, 2007
429
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How much gold do you plan to get?
Coins and bars are fun and all, but you do pay a premium to get them.
Certificates are the best way to go to make profit.
Forget the nonsense, that its just a piece of paper, or not really worth anything.
I have never heard of anyone not being able to sell a gold certificate for its worth.
I would probably go for a gold certificate, but I certainly won't buy when the market is high.

Of course, I'm thinking "after the fact", but lets say if a person would've bought $10,000 worth of gold certificates when gold was $800/oz and then sold them when gold was $1200/oz, what kind of service charges would've a guy had to pay? Are you hit with capital gains on such a purchase?

On the other hand, if a person were to buy the actual gold "metal", where can you buy that (in Edmonton)? How do you know that what you're getting is the real thing and 100% pure?

I would purchase for the sake of investment to make a return (in a reasonable amount of time). Since gold is high, what other precious metals could a person look at to make a few dollars ? What are the returns like on silver/copper, etc ?
 

festealth

Resident Troll
Sep 8, 2005
276
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0
I would probably go for a gold certificate, but I certainly won't buy when the market is high.

Of course, I'm thinking "after the fact", but lets say if a person would've bought $10,000 worth of gold certificates when gold was $800/oz and then sold them when gold was $1200/oz, what kind of service charges would've a guy had to pay? Are you hit with capital gains on such a purchase?

On the other hand, if a person were to buy the actual gold "metal", where can you buy that (in Edmonton)? How do you know that what you're getting is the real thing and 100% pure?

I would purchase for the sake of investment to make a return (in a reasonable amount of time). Since gold is high, what other precious metals could a person look at to make a few dollars ? What are the returns like on silver/copper, etc ?
I think your local Scotiabank or even currency trader should sell gold/silver/etc.
As for premiums, I'm not too sure with certificates, but for the actual physical metals, it's usually around 10-20% ontop of market prices.
For other precious metals, there's silver, platinium, palladium... but not too sure about copper.

I personally prefere silver, since it's cheaper, easier to find and all. You can just dig your change out of your pocket and if you find any non-pennies 1968 and older, there will be silver content inside. Plus, historically silver has a 1:20 to 1:40 ratio (depending on how far you want to measure), so I'm hoping that sooner or later it will correct itself.
 

Notlurker123

Not Lurker space 123
Oct 24, 2004
15
0
1
This message appeals to anybody who buys/sells precious metals.

I was doing some research and was told about gold certificates. Basically instead of having to purchase actual "gold", a person buys a certificate that shows they own xxx number dollars of gold on a piece of paper.

First, am I understanding this correctly ? What kind of costs are involved at buying a gold certificate? Can you go down to your local bank and buy them?

Anybody here ever purchased them ? How about for any other precious metals?

Appreciate any feedback as this is an area I would like to get more info on.

thanks,
Cruiser
If you trust the paper approach to PM then kitco or goldmoney offer pool accounts that purport to give you a claim to physical gold without the premium of real gold.

There is obviously a counter party risk here in that you are trusting someone to hold your PM.

I have never purchased them preferring physical PM. Buy some fractional Maples or better yet silver maples (IMHO) and keep them safe (don't talk about your holdings)

DYODD (Do your Own Due Diligence)

L123
 
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threepeat

New member
Sep 20, 2004
946
2
0
Edmonton
How much gold do you plan to get?
Coins and bars are fun and all, but you do pay a premium to get them.
Certificates are the best way to go to make profit.
Forget the nonsense, that its just a piece of paper, or not really worth anything.
I have never heard of anyone not being able to sell a gold certificate for its worth.
According to this article, http://www.rickackerman.com/2010/02/will-the-comex-keep-pace/, there are 400 times the amount of paper gold than there is actual physical gold, based on the amount of trading going through the COMEX every day. In the event of an actual run on gold, that should tell you how quickly it would run out. If that amount makes your head spin, it's the sheer amount of derivatives like this that caused the financial world to almost blow up last year -- there's too much crap that's supposed to be worth something but not actually backed by anything.

That being said, paper gold can be a useful investment instrument as a trade, but in that case I see no real advantage of a gold certificate vs. simply buying the gold ETF (GLD).
 
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threepeat

New member
Sep 20, 2004
946
2
0
Edmonton
I would probably go for a gold certificate, but I certainly won't buy when the market is high.

Of course, I'm thinking "after the fact", but lets say if a person would've bought $10,000 worth of gold certificates when gold was $800/oz and then sold them when gold was $1200/oz, what kind of service charges would've a guy had to pay? Are you hit with capital gains on such a purchase?

On the other hand, if a person were to buy the actual gold "metal", where can you buy that (in Edmonton)? How do you know that what you're getting is the real thing and 100% pure?

I would purchase for the sake of investment to make a return (in a reasonable amount of time). Since gold is high, what other precious metals could a person look at to make a few dollars ? What are the returns like on silver/copper, etc ?
Hi Cruiser, I'm too lazy to look it up, but I replied to one of your earlier posts about gold with step-by-step instructions on how to buy gold in Edmonton. If you look at yours or my posting history you will find it there somewhere. But here is a link to answer some of your other questions: http://www.scotiamocatta.com/products/faq.htm

Bottom line is that if you are buying small quantities of metal, like one ounce or less of gold, or five ounces or less of silver, it's probably more convenient and just as cheap to go to a coin shop. If you are buying more than that, a bank like ScotiaMocatta will be cheaper.

Yes, you will have to declare capital gains if you trade precious metals and make money. If you want to do it legally, that is.

If you buy from a reputable dealer like a bank, you can be pretty sure you will be getting 100% real gold. You can more or less tell by the weight and just how heavy it is, plus if you buy a recognized form of it like the Canadian Maple Leaf you can also have confidence it is real. If you are still unsure, I would say take it to a jewellers shop or coin shop and ask about how you can get it assayed.

As for other metals, in my opinion silver is an outstanding buy right now. The historical price ratio between gold and silver is about 1:16 in ancient times, as well as the ratio of the occurence of the two metals in the Earth's crust. In modern times, the ratio has been as high as about 1:100 and as low as 1:20. The ratio sits now at about 1:60. If the ratio even moves to say 1:40, you are looking at $30/ounce silver, which is a 50% gain from current levels. And that's assuming the gold price goes nowhere. Just my opinion of course...

Copper is a base metal and so is not really practical to trade it in physical form. Your best bet would be to buy the stock of a company that mines copper, like BHP Billiton.
 
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cruiser

New member
Mar 17, 2007
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Does anyone know much about old coins? I was given/inherited a bunch of old canadian coins and have never done anything with them.

Where can a person taken them (in Edmonton), to have them looked/evaluated and see if I can get more then face value? (and make sure that I'm not ripped off, but given an honest appraisal).

I guess the other question....can a person make any money off of old coins? Anytime I did do an inquiry (years ago), people would just say that I would basically only get face value.

Thoughts/feedback?
 
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