pooners meeting....?

[susi]

so, for about 4 years i have been trying to organize a meeting of sex workers and allies from across canada and its finally going to happen in march!!

we also have some funds for a pooners "satellite meeting". what does this mean? well we hoped to support pooners coming together to discuss and ideas/concerns/strategies they may have around post decriminalization.

sp's have been working on this stuff for years but there is consistently one voice missing ....on every committee, every project....pooners are rarely represented!!

for me its a huge piece of the puzzle and i hope that some of you would be interested in sharing your perspectives in some kind of meeting.

it could be an actual physical meeting...or could be an online meeting...or could be a combination...or people who want to could come and others who are worried about confidentiality more could phone in via conference call....confidentiality will be honored whether participants are there in person or not...

so that's one aspect, then there is an "all stakeholders meeting" at the end of our plans where police, victim services, vancouver coastal health, business improvement associations, city staff, neighbourhood houses,etc are all invited too.

we are hoping thatthe "pooner perspective" could also be represented there....

now chris from john's voice is involved in this and would help with meeting logistics, we could supply space, food and the conference call hardware...or we could set up an online space for the meeting....

that said, if no pooners feel comfortable with being in an "all stakeholders" setting, maybe chris could bring your perspective to the all stakeholders meeting?

these systems have all kinds of preconceived ideas about us all and about pooners in particular....

you hairy palmed seething perverts who just want little girls vagina's to enslave....lol

and it worries me that pooners are not included in the dialogue as an asset or part of the solution but rather as an after thought or a "problem".

i would love to hear how you guys feel we could best support bringing your voices to the table.

please respond here or feel free to pm me if you are not comfortable answering publically.

i feel like this is really important and it maybe the last time there is an opportunity to creat an "official" position statement/perspective paper/contribution before the laws come down...

june we are expecting the final result of the charter challenge...

so i hope you guys will take this seriously and contribute any ideas you might have around this...

i mean its all well and good for me to talk about pooners and share examples of men who need my services but as chris always points out, i am NOT a pooner so it is not really the pooner perspective....

cheers,
love susie

 

[susi]

ok, so far people are extremely concerned with confidentiality and with good reason. this is a pretty big barrier but how about this...

we could set up a forum where we could post several threads around post decrim concerns. at a prearranged time the meeting would begin. pooners could log in and discuss via internet, anonymously.

we could make it so the link to the meeting forum is not made public but rather issued only by me via pm to pooners with significant posting history. this way we could prevent outsiders or trouble makers from getting into the meeting/discussion....

would that work for you guys?

love susie

 

[Mod-2]

I have pruned a number of postings that were off topic for this thread. While I think that discussion has merit this is not the place for it. Please stick to the issue Susi is addressing.

 

[Walk Softly]

I'm interested in contributing though I definitely have privacy concerns.

I don't think I'd do an "all parties meeting" in person but maybe on line or a conference call type of scenario.

Keep up the good work Susi!

WS.

 

[susi]

good idea! i had some funding so could provide food and coffee etc was all....

how do you think it could work in chat? set a time? and then go through the process? identify pooner priorities for a post law reform canada? example- the swedish model being implemented? human trafficking? violence against pooners?

then we could have everyone vote on 4 or 5 of the priorities narrowing the field a bit....

once we have 4 or 5 pirorities to work on we could brainstorm strategies?

should this be pooners only? could i help? let me know what i can do!

love susieXXXO

 

[susi]

in sweden the selling of sex is not criminal but the purchase of sex is illegal. it is being pushed in canada by a number of people including trisha baptie(former worker), janine benedet(ubc law), benjamin perrin (ubc law), joy smith (member of parliament for winnipeg/kildonen), the salvation army etc.

we maintain that criminalizing the pooner will undermine efforts to combat human trafficking in that pooners see places we as support personel will never see. making it criminal will prevent pooners from reporting violence should they witness it for fear of being charged and having their lives destroyed.

also, i really don't need a mostly male government defining where and under what circumstances i may allow access to my vagina. its like they feel we are incompetant and need to have our genitals governed by the state...its ucked up. plain and simple.

here's a link to the wikipedia description;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden

and i appreciate your trust and your support for taking part in the meeting.

i hope others will feel this is important for pooners to discuss and sign on to a chat room meeting.

would it help to set a time and date for the meeting? would it be more likely for people to commit if they knew when we wanted to do it?

love susie

 

[mik]

 

[Holly Taylor]

also, i really don't need a mostly male government defining where and under what circumstances i may allow access to my vagina. its like they feel we are incompetant and need to have our genitals governed by the state...

AMEN x a million.

 

[susi]

I would urge EXTREME caution to any and all pooners about this. online meetings should be safe. A conference call might be safe, but call from a clean/pooner cell, not your work or home number, just to be safe. Something in person should be avoided in my opinion. Do not, for any reason, share your personal information with a service provider you do not know personally and have some kind of relationship with. A meeting like this only works with pooners and moderators/resource people only because while Susi is reputable and does good work in the sexwork community, many of her industry colleagues are not, regrettably their actions have proven this. Just my two cents.

good point, i could arrange a conference call if its felt that would be more confidential...i could take minutes and post a little report about it....that way people could read it and even contribute ideas after the fact...?

love susie

 

[CJ Tylers]

back in the day, perb had some informal meet and greets... typically at one of the many now defunct strip clubs. I honestly can't see anything like that ever happening again, the times have changed too much.

 

[East Detroit]

ok, so far people are extremely concerned with confidentiality and with good reason. this is a pretty big barrier but how about this...

we could set up a forum where we could post several threads around post decrim concerns. at a prearranged time the meeting would begin. pooners could log in and discuss via internet, anonymously.

we could make it so the link to the meeting forum is not made public but rather issued only by me via pm to pooners with significant posting history. this way we could prevent outsiders or trouble makers from getting into the meeting/discussion....

would that work for you guys?

love susie

Sorry to rain on your parade Susi, but exactly what would the point of having an anonymous chat room meeting to discuss issues with the sex trade? You're asking for a group of anonymous males to bring forth their thoughts on the sex trade. How is that any different than the day by day here on this forum and others?

Here's something else you might want to consider. This forum was developed primarily to appeal to sex workers who wished to advertise with the males participation as being secondary. Therefore, the opinions of the males would, in all likelihood be quite predictable. A scientist or anyone involved in theory would quickly strike down this information as biased. It would be like asking for opinions about how global warming is a hoax at a Conservative get together.

Further, how will you handle the information that differs with the opinion you want to put forth (known as your agenda). You are very quick to swing a stick in my direction when I disagree with you. How are you going to handle opinions you do not agree with? Will you bring them forward?

Fundamentally Susan, I agree with what your long term goal is. What I don't agree with is how you're going about it. It seems less about having an open, honest dialogue about the sex trade and more about reinforcing your opinion of it. It's like your recruiting soldiers who share your opinion to reinforce your opinion. How is that honest?

One last point. How is using this forum to gather opinions on the sex trade not biased? A large majority of the sex workers who advertise and partake in the discussion on this forum likely fall into the category of courtesan. This forum is underrepresented with women who work the streets, Asians who work in AMP's and women who work in agencies. Can you be sure that the males of this forum aren't skewed towards those that predominately buy services from a more upscale sex worker?

 

[huggzy]

Sorry to rain on your parade Susi, but exactly what would the point of having an anonymous chat room meeting to discuss issues with the sex trade? You're asking for a group of anonymous males to bring forth their thoughts on the sex trade. How is that any different than the day by day here on this forum and others?

Here's something else you might want to consider. This forum was developed primarily to appeal to sex workers who wished to advertise with the males participation as being secondary. Therefore, the opinions of the males would, in all likelihood be quite predictable. A scientist or anyone involved in theory would quickly strike down this information as biased. It would be like asking for opinions about how global warming is a hoax at a Conservative get together.

Further, how will you handle the information that differs with the opinion you want to put forth (known as your agenda). You are very quick to swing a stick in my direction when I disagree with you. How are you going to handle opinions you do not agree with? Will you bring them forward?

Fundamentally Susan, I agree with what your long term goal is. What I don't agree with is how you're going about it. It seems less about having an open, honest dialogue about the sex trade and more about reinforcing your opinion of it. It's like your recruiting soldiers who share your opinion to reinforce your opinion. How is that honest?

One last point. How is using this forum to gather opinions on the sex trade not biased? A large majority of the sex workers who advertise and partake in the discussion on this forum likely fall into the category of courtesan. This forum is underrepresented with women who work the streets, Asians who work in AMP's and women who work in agencies. Can you be sure that the males of this forum aren't skewed towards those that predominately buy services from a more upscale sex worker?

Valid points. However, until someone from the pooners perspective decides they want to take the lead on this this appears to be the best we've got.

Unless you want to head something up to represent pooners? It appears the opportunity is open for someone to advance our rights/perspectives, and it appears that you have interests and concerns about how your perspectives might be heard in this forum. Why don't you take the lead?

 

[susi]

so nice to hear from you again ED.....

Sorry to rain on your parade Susi, but exactly what would the point of having an anonymous chat room meeting to discuss issues with the sex trade? You're asking for a group of anonymous males to bring forth their thoughts on the sex trade. How is that any different than the day by day here on this forum and others?

i am hoping to support pooners in discussing PURCHASING sex and the risks they face, not asking them to talk about their sessions with workers. workers are not invited, it is about bringing the voices of buyers to the table. or is it you believe they have no right to have an opinion about the violence they face?

Here's something else you might want to consider. This forum was developed primarily to appeal to sex workers who wished to advertise with the males participation as being secondary. Therefore, the opinions of the males would, in all likelihood be quite predictable. A scientist or anyone involved in theory would quickly strike down this information as biased. It would be like asking for opinions about how global warming is a hoax at a Conservative get together.

that's quite an assumption which seems to fall under your general lack of respect for the men who purchase sex. how do you know what their concerns will be? since they are facing criminalization under a nordic model criminal code template, should we not include them in discussions about how to counter that?

where did i say it was to be used by scientists? as an advocate and person fighting for labor rights and human rights, i feel their perspective is extremely important. your exqample of global warming does not really apply...

Further, how will you handle the information that differs with the opinion you want to put forth (known as your agenda)known by whom? you and all your buddies?. You are very quick to swing a stick in my direction when I disagree with you. How are you going to handle opinions you do not agree with? Will you bring them forward?

i always do bring forward all opinions i gather. thanks for labeling me some kind of facist again, you don't make alot of sense ...i guess this is what a person who disagrees with you gets though hey? kind of the pot calling the kettle....hva eyou bothered to read anything we have written?

Fundamentally Susan, I agree with what your long term goal is. What I don't agree with is how you're going about it. It seems less about having an open, honest dialogue about the sex trade and more about reinforcing your opinion of it. It's like your recruiting soldiers who share your opinion to reinforce your opinion. How is that honest?

what soldiers? i simply offer people the facts and will not stnad by while debunked research and the old stereo types are hoisted as fact in an attempt to shame pooners into not purchasing sex workers services. i don't agree with your agenda and your shame the john's approach. i have never been anything but honest and frankly resent you implying that i am not and somehow have an agenda.

interesting that you are so upset that pooners might have an opinion and that it might actually matter and contribute to our battle for rights.

One last point. How is using this forum to gather opinions on the sex trade not biased? A large majority of the sex workers who advertise and partake in the discussion on this forum likely fall into the category of courtesan. This forum is underrepresented with women who work the streets, Asians who work in AMP's and women who work in agencies. Can you be sure that the males of this forum aren't skewed towards those that predominately buy services from a more upscale sex worker?

i just spent the weekend with workers from all areas of the trade as i described in the first post. i planned the meetings for 4 years and brought workers and allies from all over canada. indoor, outdoor, exotic dancers, male, trans, adult film workers, aborigional women and men......SWAN who work with asian migrant workers were also in attendance. we include asina migrant workers in everything we do....

you seem to be under the impression that i have no connection to my own community. you are wrong. i actively engage and seek out workers from all venues, genres, sexual identies, cultural backgrounds as well as urban vs rural workers....

research has shown- john's voice- as well as from taking part here i have seen it to be true that pooners purchase across many venues, sometimes porn, exotic show lounge, bj in the car, $2000 an hour with a vegas worker, regular favorite local indy sp.....

again, this was/is about pooners voices being at the table and finding ways they can contribute safely. unless you feel that because they are men, they do not face risk.

seriously ED, what exactly is your problem with this meeting? and me for that matter....you say i have an agenda, and am recruiting soldiers and that i am dishonest....when? what am i? some gangster trafficker recruting soldiers to help me profit from exploitation? you are way off the mark and i don't appreciate it. i have donated countless hours ....years..of my life in the fight to bring the voices of our community to the forefront and have always adhered to inclusion of all persepctives. i am not some elitist with an agenda....

thanks though, its always nice to hear how shallow you are and for some reason angry with me.

susie

 

[susi]

Valid points. However, until someone from the pooners perspective decides they want to take the lead on this this appears to be the best we've got.

Unless you want to head something up to represent pooners? It appears the opportunity is open for someone to advance our rights/perspectives, and it appears that you have interests and concerns about how your perspectives might be heard in this forum. Why don't you take the lead?

dude, ED is an abolitionist. she claims to support decrim but then doesn't believe the pooners have a right to an opinion. its a totally double standard. sex workers should have a say but sex buyers shouldn't? its like she feels pooners are lucky to be able to purchase at all and should keep their mouths shut like good little cash machines....

typical of the abolitionist side. they say they want decrim in an attampt to confuse the public about what decrim means. they do not, she does not support decrim. they support treating buyers like criminals as well as agency owners or boyfriends/SO's of sp's. its obvious.

 

[huggzy]

dude, ED is an abolitionist. she claims to support decrim but then doesn't believe the pooners have a right to an opinion. its a totally double standard. sex workers should have a say but sex buyers shouldn't? its like she feels pooners are lucky to be able to purchase at all and should keep their mouths shut like good little cash machines....

typical of the abolitionist side. they say they want decrim in an attampt to confuse the public about what decrim means. they do not, she does not support decrim. they support treating buyers like criminals as well as agency owners or boyfriends/SO's of sp's. its obvious.

That's good to know.

I did think she made some valid points (if not to support a different viewpoint). However, in the absence of anyone wanting to take the reigns from the pooner's perspective then I'd suggest your offer is the best approach in any respect. Its better than no representation at all.

 

[East Detroit]

Susan, you see confused. Allow me to educate you on my thoughts on the sex trade. The quote below is made by myself on 02-02-2013, 10:11 AM

I will make it very clear to you. I have no issue with men buying sex. I believe that for change to come to this industry males need to be involved in the process. Males need not be ashamed of purchasing a service from a provider. To facilitate change, we need to present the truth about this industry not the idealism some wish to convey.

Please explain to me how this makes me an abolitionist? Please explain to me how I could view a client as a cash machine? Please educate me on how I don`t believe pooners should have a right to an opinion.

Edit: Post that contains the above quote. https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...trade-worker&p=1358961&highlight=#post1358961

 

[Pillowtalk]

That's good to know.

I did think she made some valid points (if not to support a different viewpoint). However, in the absence of anyone wanting to take the reigns from the pooner's perspective then I'd suggest your offer is the best approach in any respect. Its better than no representation at all.

I actually found many of ED's comments to show a complete lack of knowledge of the guys (and sps) who actually use this site, from the first comment about this forum being created for advertising being the first of a few smh remarks lol.

This forum was initially created by and for clients to discuss sps, services and rates. Advertising while important comes second. The posters on this site, imo, primarily use the services of non advertisers who charge less than half of what the paid advertisers charge. So I am thinking that they are representative of a far wider variety of clientele than ED implies are on the site.

The one thing I do agree with is that the comments of clients made on this site will be somewhat predictable. They will be biased towards sex work and sex workers, which makes them different from mainstream media and the stereotypical straight world.

Another poster's comments made me lol due to his own hypocrisy, but it did remind me that face to face meetings are probably a bad idea as some guys have a bad history of being incapable of discretion for either sps or other guys. It would be safer to protect everyone from those kinds of guys who just don't give a damn.

 

[susi]

my other issue with her assertions is that street level workers won't be represented as will amp workers not be represented and that only elite sp's will be.

i have spent 10 years working with street level workers and can tell you they are over researched, over represented and while their experiences are important, so are the experiences of indoor workers. if we base all decisions on a population who represent the minority of workers, how will that help stabilize our safety? i agree they need help first and immediately but its underway so now let's talk about others.

people aften dismiss the experiences of indoor workers by calling them "coutesan's" or some other term which implies they are privelged some how. it dismisses the experiences of the majority of workers who work indoors.

i also feel that the experieces of men who purchase sex are almost non existant and that the choices they make about where to purchase, why they purchase, how they feel about purchasing for example are important.

i have to disagree PT that the answers will be predicatable. we are not asking them about sp's, we are asking them about being a pooner, about their personal experiences and feelings about being a purchaser.

the discussion i had hoped to intiate was to mirror the discussions which took place last weekend amongst surrounding a post law reform canada. racism, by-laws and municipal regulation, occupational health and safety, a unified media message and common language we could use, human trafficking and more. rich discussions which were not predictable at all.

perhaps that is were the confuion lies. this is not about what services pooners prefer or which sp age group or prefered body type. its a converstaion about pooners as human beings.

last weekend we started by naming priorities then working to create strategies to address them. we have heard these things before in vancouver but other regions had not. in particular around working with police and city staff to find solutions and end raids.

pooners are still facing "john stings" when purchasing on street and while there has not been one arrest of a street level worker in over 3 years they are still at risk. they are forced to migrate to other communities in search of customers when the customers stop frequenting an area known for john stings for example.

when you can't develop regular clientel, yes they do this on street, you are less likely to face violence. when your regulars can't find you as you were forced to migrate by john stings, you have to start from scratch and face increased risk of violence.

how can we combat john stings without input from pooners? its a legal issue that is casuing violence against outdoor workers. i feel like there a plenty of strong legal minds here and that maybe they could have some valuable input.

that of course would depend on them naming john stings as a priority.

for me, i am all too familiar with people talking about a group without that group being there. another example is youth in the industry. we all feel strongly about it but never are there any youth taking part in the converstaion.

they do this to sp's as well, making all kinds of decisions without our input and look at the outcome.

i feel like we should be working to ensure all perspectives are included and respected, we need to stabilize our community and begin to respect each other again, some how....or at least resepct that we all have a stake in this and deserve to be heard.

east detroit has braced me a few times here and tries to diminish the work myself and other people have done. she names 10 years of ethical research "a blog" infering i am simply representing my opinion, she claims i have no connection to migrant and asian workers infering i only represent courtesans or elite escorts, she stated at one point she felt perb was a great opportunity to "educate" pooners.....about what?

she posts news stories about murder and focuses on violence against women. while important, her education program implies that all pooners are violent. by default this means all sex work is violence...unless its with an elite or "privileged" worker who are the "minority" and whose experiences are secondary to those of street level and south asian migrants. how is this educating anyone? its not. its promoting her ideas of all sex work as violence and all pooners as violent towards women.

this is not helping us to gain status as a legal profession in which labor law applies, which is the stated goal of workers all over canada. not just last weekend but for years beginning with the charter challenge and before. i say that so that ED cannot say its my opinion or agenda as she put it. this is not me recruiting soldiers for my violent army...i mean what the hell?

i am familiar with her kind of tactic from engaging "end demand" fanatics on other web sites and live in person....which is violent and crazy....they do not want the pooners voice at the table so she diminshes its value as predictable and pointless. i also feel those comments may make people reluctant to take part.

imagine if someone said, why bother asking sex workers, they're answers will surely be predicatable. we know what they will say, so let's just do what we know they would say. would you feel safe discussing anything or engaging with those people? how do you think it makes anyone who considered taking part feel? do you think they will safe taking part now?

its strange to me that we can have a conversation about compassionate care and people with disabilities but then feel that pooners will all have the same answers.

the men have left this thread and i can't blame them. i do hope that in the future we can all agree that all expeirences matter, including elite escorts and pooners.

pillow talk, you know i respect you alot so please don't take my comments the wrong way. ED i don't care what you think.

love susie

 

[East Detroit]

ED i don't care what you think.

love susie

Let the record stand.

First Susi XXXXcrafts a bald face lie that I'm an abolitionist to which I point a link where, in my own words, I make it clear I am pro sex trade and I not only respect clients I want their input.

Now we have a woman who states she values input of all parties in a discussion about the sex trade yet she doesn't care what I think? What makes this statement more perplexing is that I have publicly admitted I am pro sex trade and that I have experience in the industry. When her viewpoint is challenged her response is generally defensive vitriol. And when attacked the same people seem to come rushing to her defense to discredit what I have to say. I thought you were all about discussion Susan? I thought you wanted to work with all parties to improve the sex trade?

Re: Pillowtalk: For someone with such an long history in the sex trade, I am surprised at your lack of business acumen. The primary goal of this website is to generate revenue via escorts who advertise their services. Business is business and paying clients are priority one. If they were not priority one and disrespected this website would follow the path of a now extinct site (C E R F).

And for one final question. I am curious as to why both Pillowtalk and Susi do not advertise on PERB? Would you care to enlighten people reading this thread? If you value the input of the clientele on this site, why are you not advertising.

 

[susi]

i don't run many ads at all any more, i rely mostly on my regulars.

why would i care about someone who has been nothing but rude and condesending to me? you would have been kicked out of meetings hosted by the coalition as the point is not to challenge each other but rather to contribute equally.

attacking the perspectives and experience of another sp is not tolerated, as you have done to me. i have a right to defend myself from you raining on my parade and i don't have to care what you think. you are a confrontational troll further supporting my belief that you are an abolitionist trying to take part here to further your own agenda.

i did not see what was deleted by the moderator but can only assume its more attacks against me. its sad that you feel you have some mission to prove i am not representing my community or that i am exclusionist some how.

i will continue to try to support diverse voices at the table but will not be silent in the face of people undermining my chacter and reputation. you don't know me, try to be respectful in the things you say. you have no idea what i have done or been through so save your judgement for yourself thanks.

good luck to you lady