The Porn Dude

Nawlins distaster

Ned Flanders

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May 19, 2004
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While the magnitude of the disaster would stagger anyone, generally the consensus from what I have seen is that the preparation and the response from federal, state and municipal governments was poor. It is a little surprising that Vancouver's urban rescue team was on the ground in NO, prior to substantive National guard forces. Granted, they are not able to do much because they cannot travel anywhere without military or police protection.

This was a disaster with lead time. Can you imagine how much worse this would be if it had been an earthquake?
 

wilde

Sinnear Member
Jun 4, 2003
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ace85 said:
So if this isn't a time to discuss this,then why did you bring it up.

Cheap SHOT that is all.
And some dick head just won't let it go.
 

ace85

Banned
Jan 30, 2004
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You take a pot shot

During a discussion of a disaster. Then have the tiny sack to suggest it isn't the time to discuss it.

THen claim I am a dickhead for commenting on it.

What color is the sky in your world little man.
 

wilde

Sinnear Member
Jun 4, 2003
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Still won't let it go eh dick head?
 

HankQuinlan

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Sep 7, 2002
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luckydog71 said:
I am not sure why you choose to take a shot, but you and just a few others on the board see this as the opportunity to display your hate for America.

The USA is very fortunate to have for a neighbor the people of Canada. In a time of need on either side of the 49th is a time to put aside our differences and focus on helping these people any way we can.
If I had been aware of the full horror of the situation at the time, I might have been more sensitive than to bring up Iraq in this context.

I can't watch TV news because I find the current situation in Louisiana and its neighbours too heart-breaking.

I do not and have never hated America, and I always resent that taking shots at your administration is taken as "hating America". George Bush and his handlers are not "America". America is a great country that is not currently living up to its potential. I absolutely do hate your current administration, and its horrendous activities in Iraq (in my view) colour every aspect of your current government. They are not redeemable, but your country is.

I do have faith that the good sense of Americans will ultimately prevail and that they will see the horror of their course and change paths to a more positive role. They have in the past, and they will do so again in the future. I include you in that faith.
 

luckydog71

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Oct 26, 2003
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HankQuinlan said:
If I had been aware of the full horror of the situation at the time, I might have been more sensitive than to bring up Iraq in this context.
Thanks Hank. I accept your explanation



HankQuinlan said:
I do not and have never hated America, and I always resent that taking shots at your administration is taken as "hating America". George Bush and his handlers are not "America".
The government is us…at least it is supposed to be….we elected them.

What makes me sad….. is the shooting and raping of Americans by Americans in a time of disaster. Those thugs have slowed the rescue efforts. Why do they do that? If this is their chance to “get whitie” as some have suggested, they are hurting very few whites. Most of the people they are hurting are black.

This is not a GWB problem. I can not believe Americans are dying from a lack of action.
It is the state and city that have responsibility for disaster planning and policing. It appears that some time yesterday a decision was made at the federal level to bypass local and state government. Federal troops are entering the city and taking command. Under our constitution that is not suppose to happen. But this is a desperate situation and it requires desperate action. The criticism I have of W is he should have done that on Tuesday or Wednesday. Once it was obvious the state and city were not capable of handling the crises.

There will be plenty of time to analyze who fucked up and I am sure congress will form another fucking commission like they did after 9/11.



HankQuinlan said:
I do have faith that the good sense of Americans will ultimately prevail and that they will see the horror of their course and change paths to a more positive role. They have in the past, and they will do so again in the future. I include you in that faith.
Thanks Hank. I am watching a government crushed by it’s own weight. We now have so much bureaucracy and they can not even put aside the bureaucratic bullshit aside to save lives.
 

FuZzYknUckLeS

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May 11, 2005
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luckydog71 said:
...Federal troops are entering the city and taking command. Under our constitution that is not suppose to happen....
under your constitution? how exactly is that written in the constitution? feds aren't supposed to help save lives? please clarify this remark. for my own curiosity. I've honestly never read the document. :eek:
 

luckydog71

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Oct 26, 2003
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Sure the military was not needed to save lives in N.O.
It was need for police action. The city police department has completely broken down. Looting, rapes, murders are happening.

The Red Cross has food, water, medical supplies and volunteers staged, but they are not allowed to enter many parts of the city because it is too dangerous. There are thugs who are firing at rescue workers.

So step 1 retake the city with force. It is combat units that are now entering the city. Military force with the authority to shoot to kill if need be.

This is what is so sad about this whole fucking mess. It is unbelievable that thugs would open fire on rescue workers, but the news reports are indicating just that.
 

Dave in Phoenix

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Jul 6, 2002
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www.sexworkcanada.com
Being outspoken as I am, instead of enjoying Victoria I have to some extent been following the coverage and can't help but write and distribute on websites and send to Congress folks and media my thoughts:

Revised 9/3/05

Canada Quickly Responds to U.S. Disaster
We need to modify the Posse Comitatus Act

Most Canadians (as well as many Americans) despise the Bush Administration, not only for its lies for going to Iraq and creating increased hatred of West resulting in more terrorists, but closer to home what they consider totally unfair softwood import duties/restrictions which is a very serious issue for Canadians. Despite this they show overwhelming not only desire but action to help in the Katrina disaster.

The Canadian Red Cross is sending many workers on Canadian Air Force Transports. Donations from Canadians are pouring in. Air Canada is sent among other assets an A321 Airbus from Toronto capable of carrying 166 passengers plus 5600 kg of relief supplies. After unloading relief supplies in New Orleans, it is shuttling back and forth airlifting evacuees to Lackland Airforce Base in San Antonio Texas.

Many other civilian and military assets are ready to go to the Gulf, but as Zuwenda Rodibas of Emergency Preparedness Canada says, "But we need them to ask for it first." One Canadian official said, "the U.S. has been unable to co-ordinate its own resources, let alone accept an influx of foreign assistance...They can't even get their own people in there,." noting it took at least five days before food, water and other relief supplies started to get to those that needed it. It seems the U.S. military had such supplies to the Asian Tsamani victims in 12 hours but took 5 days for a homeland disaster.

Skylink Aviation is also ready and willing to send in air lift assistance but as its President said, "It seems that the U.S. government is not yet in the position to even ask for help because I think they don't know what they are doing," he said. Skylink was responsible for bringing about 2000 refugees from Kosovo to Canada to stay temporarily in a Canadian Forces base.

Skylink has also been contacted by the Italian government to help getting aid in from Italy, but has been told by U.S. Admin while they appreciate the offer but are not in a position to receive it. "I don't think they know where to begin", said the Skylink President.

B'nai Birth Canada is organizing a clothing drive in all major Canadian cities saying after the emergency needs are met, "the need for clothing will become acute for families that have lost everything," said Gerry Weinstein, the national president of the Jewish group.

Vancouver's urban rescue team was on the ground in New Orleans, prior to substantive National guard forces. Granted, they are not able to do much because they cannot travel anywhere without military or police protection. They are held up because it is like a war like zone of snipper gun fire and anarchy in New Orleans.

But there is no one to provide protection since police were long ago overwhelmed and unable to even protect themselves, and regular U.S. military can not actively act to assist local police due to the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878. The Coast Guard is not under the Posse Comitatus restrictions and most of the initial rescue work was a U.S. Coast Guard operation.

Knowing the U.S. has so many resources in Iraq, ironically the CANADIAN armed forces tracked Hurricane Katrina and started preparing plans to deal with a potential devastation. "We're not going to sit around and have a request come in and say, "Oh, we'll need four or five more days to get ready", said General Hillier, Chief of Canadian Defence.

With what many Canadians say is a dismally small military - Three Canadian warships and a coast guard vessel with relief supplies are ready to go to the U.S. Gulf Coast if requested by the Bush Admin. The Coast Guard vessel will support the Canadian Navy in the amphibious rescue operations with equipment such as pumps, generators and medical supplies. In addition, the vessel carries 2 fast response craft, a helicopter and other vessels.

The Canadian mission, dubbed Operation Union, is expected to provide humanitarian aid, along with divers, and engineering expertise for reconstruction.Three Sea King helicopters will be on the ships to ferry personnel into the devastated areas.

All this is preparing to leave Canada to the Gulf BEFORE the U.S. agrees to accept the help, so if they are allowed to help they will be there! Yes this is a tiny addition to the huge amount of assets the U.S. SHOULD have (if its not all in Iraq).

For Canada it might be a good training exercise and they would love to show up the U.S. on how something should be done. As discussed on a Canadian board, Vancouver could be subject to the same type of natural disaster from an earthquake. The city of Richmond is below sea level and could be wiped out by an earthquake created flood. Canada would need massive U.S. assistance to deal with such a large natural disaster. It makes sense to have a good relationship of mutual aid between neighbors if Bush isn't to proudful and arrogant to accept the help offered.

As a Canadian said "National Guard were the wrong troops to deploy to patrol the flooded streets of NO. The Marines with their Canadian built LAV-25's (yah that's a shameless plug) and AAV7A1's would have been my choice. And quite frankly martial law should have been declared."

Dave notes: The National Guard is not expected to be a rapid response unit. We need to revise Posse Comitatus and have rapid response military units available.

When a hospital is evacuating seriously ill patents and has to stop due to snipper fire they need a Marine Rapid Deployment insertion by helicopter in 30 minutes not in 3 days!

With police helpless since they don't have helicopters and outnumbered by the lawless, with the Governor and Mayor begging for help (famous SOS we need help plea), why shouldn't the military be available? It take days to call up from civilian jobs the National Guard, have them deploy but first the roads need to be cleared to get large convoys moving to the disaster area. Only the active military has or should have, the rapid response by air capability to respond to the immediate life saving and law enforcement needs within the U.S.

In Iraq there is such capability. Not only that but wonderfully fast Medic teams get inserted into a war zone and extract the seriously injured very efficiently and get them outstanding fast medical treatment that has saved many lives in Iraq. Why can't they be stationed to do the same in a natural disaster in the U.S. Especially when we knew for 3 days in advance that a huge hurricane was aimed at New Orleans.

All many people needed is food, water, diabetic or other medication, power for life support machines etc, which should be a lot easier medical situation than seriously injured military in Iraq. Yet they do a great job in Iraq but not ready to do the same thing in the U.S. Under Posse Comitatus Act the military CAN provide these non law enforcement search and rescue activities.

What if this was a terrorist attack? We would have the same problem - the military can act in our airspace and can shoot down airplanes but not provide any active law enforcement on the ground.

Since 9/11 some people have recognized this problem. Only the declaration of martial law which turns complete law enforcement over to the military currently allows active military law enforcement. In the U.S. there has not been martial law since World War II. We need another exemption from Posse Comitatus when agreed upon my the Pentagon and a Governor to allow limited special authority for the military to actively protect citizens when local police resources are not sufficient.

Sen. John Warner R-Va., in an October 2001 letter to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said, "Should this law [Posse Comitatus Act] now be changed to enable our active-duty military to more fully join other domestic assets in this war against terrorism?''

Pentagon Discussion of Martial Law
Less than a month ago, August 5, 2005 the Washington Post had an article about discussions by the Pentagon regarding declaring martial law if civilian resources were overwhelmed by a terrorist attack. That thinking should extend to natural disasters.

The Post account declares, “The war plans represent a historic shift for the Pentagon, which has been reluctant to become involved in domestic operations and is legally constrained from engaging in law enforcement.” A total of 15 potential crisis scenarios are outlined, ranging from “low-end,” which Graham describes as “relatively modest crowd-control missions,” to “high-end,” after as many as three simultaneous catastrophic mass-casualty events, such as a nuclear, biological or chemical weapons attack. In each case, the military would deploy a quick-reaction force of as many as 3,000 troops per attack—i.e., 9,000 total in the worst-case scenario. More troops could be made available as needed.

However some anti-government groups like the socialist party and the conspiracy theory nuts say, "The anti-terrorism scare has a propaganda purpose: to manipulate the American people and induce the public to accept drastic inroads against democratic rights. As the Pentagon planning suggests, the American working class faces the danger of some form of military-police dictatorship in the United States." Source: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/aug2005/mart-a09.shtml

How silly. But that is why its hard to get changes made in the relationship between the military and civilian authorities.

Hopefully the uproar about the slow response might get change made before the next disaster.
 
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HankQuinlan

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Sep 7, 2002
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luckydog71 said:
Sure the military was not needed to save lives in N.O.
It was need for police action. The city police department has completely broken down. Looting, rapes, murders are happening.

The Red Cross has food, water, medical supplies and volunteers staged, but they are not allowed to enter many parts of the city because it is too dangerous. There are thugs who are firing at rescue workers.

So step 1 retake the city with force. It is combat units that are now entering the city. Military force with the authority to shoot to kill if need be.

This is what is so sad about this whole fucking mess. It is unbelievable that thugs would open fire on rescue workers, but the news reports are indicating just that.
It is fucking sad, and it is also hard to know the truth of the situation, considering how spotty and unreliable the communications have been.

I believe --- and it was Americans who originated the theory --- that part of the explanation is the ingrained culture of violence in America that leads to such behaviour. The example is obvious from the top down --- take what you want by force; if you've got more or bigger guns, it's yours. The rule of law is for pussies. This did not start with GWB and his cronies by any means, but they have taken it to a higher level. Might makes right. If it is okay in the military and diplomatic fields, why shouldn't it apply to the personal? I don't like you --- you're dead. You got something I want --- money/pussy/whatever --- I'll take it.

Another partial explanation is the frustration and lack of respect for authority of the poor and criminal subculture in New Orleans specifically. Politicians and law enforcement have traditionally been at their most corrupt in that city (and state). Police and other officials have always been on the take -- more than a few police officers have been found guilty of murder and armed robbery in recent years -- and you know that means many more that were not found out. They're out of the way now, it's my turn to reap some profits.

On a non-theoretical note, what really pisses me off is the governor asking people to pray. Her job is to take action, not to leave it to some deity to magically spruce things up.
 

ace85

Banned
Jan 30, 2004
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HankQuinlan said:
It is fucking sad, and it is also hard to know the truth of the situation, considering how spotty and unreliable the communications have been.

I believe --- and it was Americans who originated the theory --- that part of the explanation is the ingrained culture of violence in America that leads to such behaviour. The example is obvious from the top down --- take what you want by force; if you've got more or bigger guns, it's yours. The rule of law is for pussies. This did not start with GWB and his cronies by any means, but they have taken it to a higher level. Might makes right. If it is okay in the military and diplomatic fields, why shouldn't it apply to the personal? I don't like you --- you're dead. You got something I want --- money/pussy/whatever --- I'll take it.

Another partial explanation is the frustration and lack of respect for authority of the poor and criminal subculture in New Orleans specifically. Politicians and law enforcement have traditionally been at their most corrupt in that city (and state). Police and other officials have always been on the take -- more than a few police officers have been found guilty of murder and armed robbery in recent years -- and you know that means many more that were not found out. They're out of the way now, it's my turn to reap some profits.

On a non-theoretical note, what really pisses me off is the governor asking people to pray. Her job is to take action, not to leave it to some deity to magically spruce things up.
Sorry but the lack of respect for authority in CANADA is as bad or worse than the US.
 

The Lizard King

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Jul 8, 2003
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Sorry but the lack of respect for authority in CANADA is as bad or worse than the US.
You're kidding, right? We have our problems, no doubt, but that's a ridiculous statement.
 
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