How did you vote - Re: HST/ PST

[wilde]

I strongly disagree:

http://www.buyric.com/news/2011/06/metro-vancouver-housing-starts-surge-may-2011-226/

Construction starts for single detached homes have been dropping dramatically. Don't be fooled by the overall increase in total unit build stats because the bulk of the new starts are in multi-family dwellings. Developers are recognizing a shift in demand as they recognize that fewer and fewer people can afford to buy single detached homes. I would surmise that if there was a comparison of the year over year value of the housing starts that the figures (and the per unit figure) would give a far more telling (and startling) picture.

A huge number of the small home builders (and their subtrades) are going out of business - whereas you will have a handful of the large-scale multi-million dollar/billion dollar developers swallowing up the entire new home construction industry.

Agreed. I was thinking of all the bidding war stories I've heard for single detached homes (used) in Van, Bby and Richmond.

 

[Pirate Code]

One thing a lot of people are not talking about is the real nature of our economy. There was a time where B.C. was basically a natural resource province. Mine the coal, cut the trees, fish the salmon, tax the companies doing it. That was a mainstay of the PST, along with consumers paying for goods, and with so many ludicrous exceptions and complexities it would make the most ardent policy makers blush. It was a masterwork of beuracracy and special interests. Yes, I used to have to file PST returns and GST returns, and what a fucked up overly complicated shake your head bang a brick wall chunk of red tape that was trying to keep two separete tax rules straight. So now we have laid off miners, suffering forestry workers, non-profitable fishers, yet a thriving service industry. And guess what? Who are the big buyers of services? Businesses. That's right, businesses by services by the truckload. When was the last time you spent $2.4 million anually on services? Why do you think economists support the HST? It ain't because they love the government. No way. But they do show the integrity to recognize a simple tax with low transaction costs that better reflects our current economy is a progressive economic move. No government in their right mind would bring in a PST. If the No vote wins, we will have the best and lowest tax for people in Canada, with the exception of Alberta. So we can move forward even if we hate the government (when was the last time you loved your goverment? Wanna buy a fast ferry?), or we can move on with reality and a balanced economy of service and resource sectors contributing to the social programs we care about. If the yes vote wins, life will go on, but we will remain with a paralyzing fucked up tax system hoping that once again we can tax the trees, fish, and minerals to fund healthcare and education. I am hoping straightening out the HST is just the start, and straightening the healthcare and educations systems comes next. It pains me to see such good people working in such wasteful organizations.

So what about the biggest lie of all? That the HST will kill the province. People will stop going out to pubs and restaurants. Small service providers will shut down. Well, take a look. Sure creature comforts are a little more expensive, but the sky did not fall, as the opposition said it would. In fact restaurants are booming and we have a tax surplus, proving the HST can and should be reduced, now that the pessimiests were proven wrong. They lied to us about the effects of the HST. It is time to move forward. I am going out to buy beer and natchos, and gladly pay the HST on them.

A very well executed post, thank you.

And the hst is killing the restaurant business right now. This is common knowledge.

It is common knowledge that the media is reporting that it's the restaurant's belief that it's all the hst's fault that business is down. Do they really know for certain that this is the reason? Perhaps it is partly the reason, but personally I have not been spending much lately due to other reasons. Could it not be there is more than one factor that is the cause for the drop in business? Look to the south of us and you'll see a HUGE loss of business that is due to a nation wide RECESSION. Apparently, if you haven't heard, the Eastern provinces were/are hit pretty bad.

Could it be that the HST is being blamed 100% for the loss of business when the percentage of blame could actually be a lot less?

 

[huggzy]

A very well executed post, thank you.




It is common knowledge that the media is reporting that 'it's all the hst's fault that business is down' Is there any actual way to know for certain that this is the reason? Perhaps it is partly the reason, but personally I have not been spending much lately due to other reasons. Could it not be there is more than one factor that is the cause for the drop in business? Look to the south of us and you'll see a HUGE loss of business that is due to a nation wide RECESSION. Apparently, if you haven't heard, the Eastern provinces were/are hit pretty bad.

Could it be that the HST is being blamed 100% for the loss of business when the percentage of blame could actually be a lot less?

As I've said previously...I track each and every single penny I spend. I know my cost of living has gone up and it coincided with the introduction of the HST. I've dealt with construction subtrades who don't give up a penny of cost savings when they've been given the opportunity to keep it.

I'll believe what I see in my own personal experiences rather than buy into the economic theory, "trickle down effects", "invisible hand" bullshit that hst proponents like to feed us. The problem with these theories is that their proponents forget to remind us that we do not work in a perfect marketplace, with perfect competition, with perfect information, etc. along with, as you've conveniently mentioned, thousands of other variables that can derail the most wonderful of economic plans out there.

Why on earth did our provincial leaders do such a change when there is so much economic uncertainty and when they knew they did not have a mandate to do this? We can't know for certain that ALL of our economic woes can be placed on the HST.

What I do know for certain is that experience tells me that politicians do not change tax regimes unless they are gaining tax revenue and political favor from their benefiting interest groups from it.

So save the bullshit. I've played enough poker to know it when I see it.

 

[Cock Throppled]

The biggest financial basket cases in Europe have some of the highest VAT rates.

Welcome to our future:

It has been announced today that the Irish government plans to raise its standard VAT rate*from 21% to 22% in 2013, and then from 22% to 23% in 2014.*
-------------------------------------------
Greece increased on July 1, 2010 its V.A.T. rates.
The new standard V.A.T. rate is 23% compared to the previous 21% rate.
------------------------------------------
In an effort to reassure financial markets of Portugal's intent on cutting its huge state deficit, a 1% VAT increase has been annouced.* The new standard rate will be 21%.*

 

[not2old]

I have seen 4 informal polls like this one on different sites. All are running strongly in favor of the No vote.

Hopefully it's a predictor of how the referendum turns out.

 

[Cock Throppled]

I have seen 4 informal polls like this one on different sites. All are running strongly in favor of the No vote.

Hopefully it's a predictor of how the referendum turns out.

Yeah, I can hardly wait to we reach bankrupt status like the above.

 

[aznboi9]

The biggest financial basket cases in Europe have some of the highest VAT rates.

Welcome to our future:

It has been announced today that the Irish government plans to raise its standard VAT rate*from 21% to 22% in 2013, and then from 22% to 23% in 2014.*
-------------------------------------------
Greece increased on July 1, 2010 its V.A.T. rates.
The new standard V.A.T. rate is 23% compared to the previous 21% rate.
------------------------------------------
In an effort to reassure financial markets of Portugal's intent on cutting its huge state deficit, a 1% VAT increase has been annouced.* The new standard rate will be 21%.*

Sweden, Norway and Germany have VATs that are just as high at 25%, 25%, and 19% and they're among the richest countries in the world.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sw.html

http://www.traveldocs.com/no/economy.htm

http://www.traveldocs.com/de/economy.htm

 

[Cock Throppled]

Sweden, Norway and Germany have VATs that are just as high at 25%, 25%, and 19% and they're among the richest countries in the world.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sw.html

http://www.traveldocs.com/no/economy.htm

http://www.traveldocs.com/de/economy.htm

And all of those countries also have the highest tax rates and costs of living - rates that would make most people here crap themselves. So - highest VAT countries have the worst financial records or highest VAT countries have the highest taxes and cost of living.
Take your pick - neither sounds very appealing.

 

[wilde]

CP, I am not saying we will or will not follow in the footsteps of the VAT countries you mentioned. But the Canadian experience so far has been vastly different, the GST (Federal portion) has gone from 7% to 5% which you failed to mention.

 

[aznboi9]

And all of those countries also have the highest tax rates and costs of living - rates that would make most people here crap themselves.

They also have the highest standards of living in world.

So - highest VAT countries have the worst financial records or highest VAT countries have the highest taxes and cost of living.
Take your pick - neither sounds very appealing.

So, by your logic, the countries with the lowest or no VATs should be doing the best then, such as those bastions of financial stability like Somalia, Afghanistan and Zimbabwe?

As usual, you've the missed the point. If you're going to lay blame of all of a countries financial woes on the VAT, then you have to also give all credit for those countries that are doing very well. Otherwise, and it's what you're doing, you're holding a double standard.

Which is a silly exercise anyway, since to to take a complex, mult-faceted phenomenon, such as a country's financial wellbeing and economy, and place the responsibility entirely on one factor, without considering the context of that country's situation, is beyond ridiculous.

 

[aznboi9]

Has anyone bothered to do the math on what the current Liberal government is doing?

For everyone who says, "I'm voting for the HST because 10% is less than the old system"... guess what?

They have blown a massive hole in the budget with cheques sent out to buy votes - $500 million.

1% drop in HST - $1 billion.

Second 1% drop - another $1 billion.

If you HST supporters think voting to keep it is going to be painless - just wait. They are going to have to get back that money somehow/some way. Get ready to bend over and this time - no lube.

This post does strike me as amusing though. You've basically been ranting and raving about the extra taxes that we've been paying under HST (800 million as you keep bringing up) and have vehemently denied that the reduction in HST is going to solve that ("10% on everything is still more than 12% on a few things).

Yet, now, you're ranting about this huge hit in tax revenue. Just by your numbers alone, dropping the tax by 2% is going to equal 2 billion in reduced taxes, more than enough to make up for the 800 million that you've been spitting at the mouth about.

So which is it, CP? Are we going to be paying more taxes under HST? Or less?

 

[huggzy]

They also have the highest standards of living in world.


So, by your logic, the countries with the lowest or no VATs should be doing the best then, such as those bastions of financial stability like Somalia, Afghanistan and Zimbabwe?

As usual, you've the missed the point. If you're going to lay blame of all of a countries financial woes on the VAT, then you have to also give all credit for those countries that are doing very well. Otherwise, and it's what you're doing, you're holding a double standard.

Which is a silly exercise anyway, since to to take a complex, mult-faceted phenomenon, such as a country's financial wellbeing and economy, and place the responsibility entirely on one factor, without considering the context of that country's situation, is beyond ridiculous.

You can't possibly compare tax regimes between countries without looking at the entire picture. To just simply compare VAT's between countries without looking at other factors like income tax, government spending, etc. never mind the things such as a country's wealth in natural resources makes this type of comparison utterly useless.

 

[aznboi9]

You can't possibly compare tax regimes between countries without looking at the entire picture. To just simply compare VAT's between countries without looking at other factors like income tax, government spending, etc. never mind the things such as a country's wealth in natural resources makes this type of comparison utterly useless.

That's right; that was my point.

 

[chilli]

That's right; that was my point.

Doesn't matter.

On this whole issue you and the people who unwittingly support the HST implementation are wrong.

The HST is an unprecedented tax shift in the province of BC, transferring almost 2 billion dollars per year in taxes from business and large corporations to consumers.

The HST is also a 7% tax increase on many items not previously taxed under the pst.

As usual the consumer has less money to spend and corporations and government benefit.

And the uninformed like yourself let them get away with it.

 

[Pirate Code]

And the uninformed like yourself let them get away with it.

Although you make valid points, you absolutely cannot say that aznboi is uninformed. On the contrary, he's shown us all very logically, many times, how the HST is the lesser of two evils.

About 'letting them get away with it' -- that sounds like another vengeance yes vote.

If you expect taxes to go down in this economy, you're crazy. I choose the tax that is good for business because business is where people work and earn their living. If there's no work, everyone loses..

 

[Cock Throppled]

Average, everyday spending you don't notice it too much.

Make a big purchase or need service work done an you realize how much you're fucked by it.

My mother needs to hire people to do a lot of work she or I can't do and it costs her a lot more for all those services.

Still gotta ask - if it's so fucking good why were the Liberals so against before the election? If it has all those supposed benefits why didn't they bring it in 10 years ago or even run on it's benefits as a platform? Maybe because they got bought off by the cash trying not to look as incompetent at managing money as they really are?

 

[Tugela]

The HST is an unprecedented tax shift in the province of BC, transferring almost 2 billion dollars per year in taxes from business and large corporations to consumers.

Hate to break it to you but any tax a business pays gets passed onto the consumer. Money doesn't come from nowhere.

Ultimately a consumer tax is the fairest of them all. However, what increasing such taxes does in our system is transferr tax burden from wealthier tax payers to poorer ones, due to the effects of tax brackets. BUT, government has the ability to compensate for that by adjusting the tax brackets or increasing credits. Likewise, if the government wanted to shift tax burden to poorer people as a matter of policy without increasing tax rates directly they could do that by decreasong the tax brackets, or simpkly not increasing them over time and allowing inflation to push people into the next bracket.

 

[HeatherMorgan]

I voted no to the HST.
Here are the main two articles that influenced my decison.

http://www.commonground.ca​/iss/240/cg240_hst-smart-m​eters.shtml
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/​2011/07/05/HSTSecrets/

 

[Cock Throppled]

That was helpful - both articles not there.

But, as the sources were tyee and common ground, I'm guessing they were against the HST.
So, does that mean you voted yes or no?
No, I want to keep it, yes I want to get rid of it.
No confusion there.