How did you vote - Re: HST/ PST

[whoisjohngalt]

Some people just don't get it.

This is the infuriating thing about trying to show people how bad this tax can be.

My business is the same - CLIENTS HAVE LESS MONEY TO SPEND!! That's why my business, and probably the book shop's, and many others are suffering. But of course, to ardent HST supporters that's just coincidental.

But I do concede that there are no limits or checks on HST credits, so most businesses will just pad them and claim extra credits. That, combined with the huge increase to the underground economy will be great for everyone.

People's inclination and ability to spend fluctuates for a variety of reasons. I have heard of no evidence that the HST has resulted in a reduction consumer activity overall, which is not surprising, particularly for goods that were already subject to the PST. This is especially true when you consider that the majority of British Columbians actually have more money in their pockets due to the enhanced HST credit. The fact is that you are someone who has made up his mind on the HST for reasons that are personal and political, but have nothing to do with the merits of the tax itself, facts and evidence be damned.

I am not sure what you mean by businesses "padding" their tax credit claims, but that's why the Canada Revenue Agency has a large audit division.

 

[uncleg]

Some people just don't get it.

This is the infuriating thing about trying to show people how bad this tax can be.

My business is the same - CLIENTS HAVE LESS MONEY TO SPEND!! That's why my business, and probably the book shop's, and many others are suffering. But of course, to ardent HST supporters that's just coincidental.

But I do concede that there are no limits or checks on HST credits, so most businesses will just pad them and claim extra credits. That, combined with the huge increase to the underground economy will be great for everyone.

It can be a bitch trying to explain how bad this is for small business and individuals.

I'm in transportation, for me the HST just made a bad situation worse. I used to collect GST only, HST comes in and there is an additional 7% hit to the client. That didn't help. For a lot of the services I used, I was the person hit with the additional 7%, that didn't help. While I can get some relief claiming back recoverable tax, my biggest expense I can't claim back. Namely tax on fuel used to provide my services. The truck that hauled the fuel to the gas station can claim back on taxes, the gas station can claim back on taxes, I can't. I get some relief in that I can charge a fuel surcharge,, but I have to tax that as well. The services I provide are a discretionary service, sort of like the SP's on here. If you have the extra money you indulge, if not, you put up with the wife or jack off. IN my case you walk or use a cab. So as CT puts it, if the clients have less to spend, I don't see as many of them. An argument might be made that I might have to look at my pricing, charge a little less and do a bit more volume. I can't, the Government sets my rates, they set what I charge as a fuel surcharge, they set the services I can provide, the types of vehicles I can use, etc. No, for me this means that the government has both hands in my pocket, instead of only one and I'm getting jacked off, but not in a good way.

 

[Cock Throppled]

I am not sure what you mean by businesses "padding" their tax credit claims, but that's why the Canada Revenue Agency has a large audit division.

Are you aware there is no documentation required when a person files his/her HST return? You simply report sales for the filing period (could be a year, a quarter, a month), HST paid and HST collected. If you paid more than you collected, you receive a cheque. If not, you send a cheque.

With no proper documentation, the HST reporting system is open to abuse. And abuse, by all accounts, is both widespread and costly.

In its 2003 inquiry into GST fraud, the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee reoprt confirms this: "The illegal activity in question is mostly in the form of individuals making false claims for GST rebates, otherwise known as input tax credits." Because GST registrants are not required to produce supporting documentation when filing for GST rebates, it is difficult for the federal tax authorities to identify fraudulent GST rebate claims; and for each case of fraud identified, there may be considerably more undetected illegal activity."

There was much tighter control on the PST collection, more audits and the ability to spot irregularities. We all know how efficient Ottawa is.

 

[icemanmp1]

You're dreaming if you think contractors and builders will pass all those savings onto the consumer.

House prices in BC are high and getting higher, the HST savings will go into the pockets of each trade involved and the builders. The HST is also impacting realtors.

"Throwing billions away" is part of the ridiculous spin. Listening to the pro HST side you'd think we were still living in log cabins because there was no investment or interest in investing in BC.

I guess Jim Pattison didn't get the memo it's not worth investing without an HST.

the contracters never pass on the savings to consumers.... thats why you get people walking into wholesale places wanting our prices........and contracters are telling wholesalers to tighten up..who they sell too...!!!! ive seen it happen..

 

[chilli]

All of the pro HST people don't understand that although the HST may be better for business - it's not better for the consumer.

And if the consumer has no money, they don't spend it.

Amazing how many people on these boards have no clue about how bad this tax is.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

HST for dining out, HST for haircut, HST to buy a house, next thing you know, there is HST to buy weed or HST for pooning. How would you feel when your normal 20 bag goes to 24. And your regular SP charge you 160+20 Tax +20 Tip?

Of course nobody likes to pay tax. But please explain why some goods and services should be exempt while others should be taxed, in an arbitrary and unpredictable manner such as was the case under the PST. How is that fair and equitable? How does that not create perverse incentives for businesses and industries to lobby for exemptions, thereby expending resources in a wasteful manner? How does that not encourage corruption of public officials who can now use the granting of tax exemptions as a political football to enrich themselves and curry favour with various special interest groups? Until you can answer these questions then the arguments in favour of the PST ring hollow.

All of the pro HST people don't understand that although the HST may be better for business - it's not better for the consumer.

And if the consumer has no money, they don't spend it.

Amazing how many people on these boards have no clue about how bad this tax is.

Businesses have to compete with each other. Cost reductions do indeed get passed on to consumers, in the same manner that cost increases get passed on. I know a lot of folks are skeptical of this idea but think about it. If businesses could charge any price they wanted without regard to competition then why don't they all double their prices? Competition and market forces are real and are accepted by all established economists. It doesn't always happen right away but eventually reductions in supply costs translate into lower prices to consumers.

Are you aware there is no documentation required when a person files his/her HST return? You simply report sales for the filing period (could be a year, a quarter, a month), HST paid and HST collected. If you paid more than you collected, you receive a cheque. If not, you send a cheque.

With no proper documentation, the HST reporting system is open to abuse. And abuse, by all accounts, is both widespread and costly.

In its 2003 inquiry into GST fraud, the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee reoprt confirms this: "The illegal activity in question is mostly in the form of individuals making false claims for GST rebates, otherwise known as input tax credits." Because GST registrants are not required to produce supporting documentation when filing for GST rebates, it is difficult for the federal tax authorities to identify fraudulent GST rebate claims; and for each case of fraud identified, there may be considerably more undetected illegal activity."

There was much tighter control on the PST collection, more audits and the ability to spot irregularities. We all know how efficient Ottawa is.

Yes I am aware of the process for submitting GST/HST returns having completed hundreds of these both for my own business and for my clients over the years. But are you saying that because there is some abuse we should not impose the tax? All forms of taxation are abused, that is the nature of a self-reporting self-assessing tax system. If you are suggesting that the Provincial government is somehow better and more efficient in running the PST than the Feds are at running the GST, I would suggest that all forms of government are more or less equally inefficient and there is no reason to think that the provincial is any different from the feds. I would ask you to consider all of the duplication that is avoided by having the tax administration under one roof.


The bigger issue in my opinion is that our overall level of taxation is much too high and our governments are involved in far too many activities that could and should be left to the private sector. Until we get government spending under control we can't have any meaningful conversation about lowering taxes.

 

[huggzy]

Of course nobody likes to pay tax. But please explain why some goods and services should be exempt while others should be taxed, in an arbitrary and unpredictable manner such as was the case under the PST. How is that fair and equitable? How does that not create perverse incentives for businesses and industries to lobby for exemptions, thereby expending resources in a wasteful manner? How does that not encourage corruption of public officials who can now use the granting of tax exemptions as a political football to enrich themselves and curry favour with various special interest groups? Until you can answer these questions then the arguments in favour of the PST ring hollow.



Businesses have to compete with each other. Cost reductions do indeed get passed on to consumers, in the same manner that cost increases get passed on. I know a lot of folks are skeptical of this idea but think about it. If businesses could charge any price they wanted without regard to competition then why don't they all double their prices? Competition and market forces are real and are accepted by all established economists. It doesn't always happen right away but eventually reductions in supply costs translate into lower prices to consumers.



Yes I am aware of the process for submitting GST/HST returns having completed hundreds of these both for my own business and for my clients over the years. But are you saying that because there is some abuse we should not impose the tax? All forms of taxation are abused, that is the nature of a self-reporting self-assessing tax system. If you are suggesting that the Provincial government is somehow better and more efficient in running the PST than the Feds are at running the GST, I would suggest that all forms of government are more or less equally inefficient and there is no reason to think that the provincial is any different from the feds. I would ask you to consider all of the duplication that is avoided by having the tax administration under one roof.


The bigger issue in my opinion is that our overall level of taxation is much too high and our governments are involved in far too many activities that could and should be left to the private sector. Until we get government spending under control we can't have any meaningful conversation about lowering taxes.

Blah blah blah blah...go back to your economics books and keep reading about the invisible hand of the market. We all know how the theory is supposed to work.

The problem is that the reality doesn't necessarily follow as you logic it out to...because business owners don't necessarily cooperate. They have their own best interests at heart, and the market place doesn't work with perfect information, nor does it work and change instantaneously.

Business owners pocket the profits when they get them. They don't just go out and expand their business and hire a bunch more workers on an immediate basis just because they've come across a windfall.

As far as "fairness"?!?!? Don't you think its a touch unfair that our economy has developed under certain rules of the game (pst/gst), and now that this was firmly entrenched in the fabric of our society, then their worlds get absolutely shattered by the imposition of an unforseen tax that completely ruins them????

There are reasons why some industries weren't taxed with pst (whether we agree with this or not)...but these industries were exempted because past leadership believed that it was important to society to exempt these industries for whatever reason. And now in just one fell swoop the Liberals have unwittingly unleashed an all out assault on the very existence of many of these industries with their mindless ignorance and deceit.

That's what you would call unfair.

 

[huggzy]

Of course nobody likes to pay tax. But please explain why some goods and services should be exempt while others should be taxed, in an arbitrary and unpredictable manner such as was the case under the PST. How is that fair and equitable? How does that not create perverse incentives for businesses and industries to lobby for exemptions, thereby expending resources in a wasteful manner? How does that not encourage corruption of public officials who can now use the granting of tax exemptions as a political football to enrich themselves and curry favour with various special interest groups? Until you can answer these questions then the arguments in favour of the PST ring hollow.



Businesses have to compete with each other. Cost reductions do indeed get passed on to consumers, in the same manner that cost increases get passed on. I know a lot of folks are skeptical of this idea but think about it. If businesses could charge any price they wanted without regard to competition then why don't they all double their prices? Competition and market forces are real and are accepted by all established economists. It doesn't always happen right away but eventually reductions in supply costs translate into lower prices to consumers.



Yes I am aware of the process for submitting GST/HST returns having completed hundreds of these both for my own business and for my clients over the years. But are you saying that because there is some abuse we should not impose the tax? All forms of taxation are abused, that is the nature of a self-reporting self-assessing tax system. If you are suggesting that the Provincial government is somehow better and more efficient in running the PST than the Feds are at running the GST, I would suggest that all forms of government are more or less equally inefficient and there is no reason to think that the provincial is any different from the feds. I would ask you to consider all of the duplication that is avoided by having the tax administration under one roof.


The bigger issue in my opinion is that our overall level of taxation is much too high and our governments are involved in far too many activities that could and should be left to the private sector. Until we get government spending under control we can't have any meaningful conversation about lowering taxes.

We get it. You own/run a business and implementation of the HST favors people like you. Just don't try to blow this bullshit up our asses that it somehow favors the consumer, because it doesn't. That's a load of crap.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

We get it. You own/run a business and implementation of the HST favors people like you. Just don't try to blow this bullshit up our asses that it somehow favors the consumer, because it doesn't. That's a load of crap.

Ignorance is not a point of view. Man up and admit that you don't understand this stuff. I have nothing more to say on this topic.

 

[huggzy]

Ignorance is not a point of view. Man up and admit that you don't understand this stuff. I have nothing more to say on this topic.

Oh, I get it. I also don't buy your bullshit. You're relying on ignorance to buy into your position.

 

[wilde]

HST for dining out, HST for haircut, HST to buy a house, next thing you know, there is HST to buy weed or HST for pooning. How would you feel when your normal 20 bag goes to 24. And your regular SP charge you 160+20 Tax +20 Tip?

Not trying to be a smart ass but $20 plus HST is $22.40 and weed if decriminalized/legalized would probably be HST exempt. There is HST on new housing but there is also a corresponding HST new housing rebate program for houses under $525,000. As for HST for dining out, well that's a personal choice. You can always cook at home more often as basic groceries are HST exempt.

 

[wilde]

The $525,000 figure is way too low IMO. Where can you buy a new house in Richmond or Vancouver for that price? I'm not talking condo's, townhomes or appartments.

I think it is too low for the lower mainland as well but the counter argument is that if you could afford something over $525,000 (I can't BTW) you can afford to pay the tax.

 

[huggzy]

Not trying to be a smart ass but $20 plus HST is $22.40 and weed if decriminalized/legalized would probably be HST exempt. There is HST on new housing but there is also a corresponding HST new housing rebate program for houses under $525,000. As for HST for dining out, well that's a personal choice. You can always cook at home more often as basic groceries are HST exempt.

How many newly constructed houses do you think are going to be built for under $525,000 in the lower mainland going forward?

And the hst is killing the restaurant business right now. This is common knowledge.

 

[wilde]

How many newly constructed houses do you think are going to be built for under $525,000 in the lower mainland going forward?

And the hst is killing the restaurant business right now. This is common knowledge.

$525,000 is way too low, no argument here. See my reply to Hunka...

Restaurant is getting killed, again no argument here. But I think the tougher drinking and driving laws may have an equal hand in this.

 

[huggzy]

I think it is too low for the lower mainland as well but the counter argument is that if you could afford something over $525,000 (I can't BTW) you can afford to pay the tax.

There are fewer and fewer people who can afford to buy housing in the lower mainland period. The HST only makes it worse...particularly if existing single detached former crack house dumps won't sell for $525,000. Being able to buy a $525,000 house in the lower mainland doesn't indicate that someone is wealthy (or does it???) What it indicates is that affordability in the lower mainland is spiralling out of control.

 

[huggzy]

$525,000 is way too low, no argument here. See my reply to Hunka...

Restaurant is getting killed, again no argument here. But I think the tougher drinking and driving laws may have an equal hand in this.

Yeah...sorry. Hunka beat me to it. And you could be right...the tougher drinking and driving laws may have some part in this, but I don't necessarily believe that most people consciously decide that they can't go out to eat because they don't want to drink and drive. I honestly don't believe that the type of people who do things like that have that much forethought

 

[wilde]

There are fewer and fewer people who can afford to buy housing in the lower mainland period. The HST only makes it worse...particularly if existing single detached former crack house dumps won't sell for $525,000. Being able to buy a $525,000 house in the lower mainland doesn't indicate that someone is wealthy (or does it???) What it indicates is that affordability in the lower mainland is spiralling out of control.

That's the odd thing, out of all the things the HST should affect, you would think that new houses over $525,000 would be the hardest hit. But this has clearly not been the case.

 

[Cock Throppled]

"All governments are inefficient" is a given, but there was more control on taxation at the provincial level just like there is more control at a small company than a large company.

For supporters of the HST how do you justify a 10% level that leave a revenue shortfall? That reduction was purely a political decision to try to buy acceptance, but is not sustainable.

If the 10% rate doesn't go up at the first political opportunity, you can bet the money will be raised from other charges.

 

[wilde]

Suppose we extinquish the HST and go back to GST/PST and there's a revenue shortfall (this is a virtual certainty). Where do you think the money will come from?

you can bet the money will be raised from other charges.

I agree completely.

Or there might be some deep spending cuts or a combination thereof.

But by that time, we stand to lose the $1.6B federal incentives, wasted all the money to implement the HST, will waste even more money to bring back the PST. Oh and we can kiss the movie/tv industry goodbye as well. Our provincial bond rating will drop requiring higher interest rate to run our provincial deficit.

 

[huggzy]

That's the odd thing, out of all the things the HST should affect, you would think that new houses over $525,000 would be the hardest hit. But this has clearly not been the case.

I strongly disagree:

http://www.buyric.com/news/2011/06/metro-vancouver-housing-starts-surge-may-2011-226/

Construction starts for single detached homes have been dropping dramatically. Don't be fooled by the overall increase in total unit build stats because the bulk of the new starts are in multi-family dwellings. Developers are recognizing a shift in demand as they recognize that fewer and fewer people can afford to buy single detached homes. I would surmise that if there was a comparison of the year over year value of the housing starts that the figures (and the per unit figure) would give a far more telling (and startling) picture.

A huge number of the small home builders (and their subtrades) are going out of business - whereas you will have a handful of the large-scale multi-million dollar/billion dollar developers swallowing up the entire new home construction industry.