Global Warming

[Herb_The_Perb]

I have to drive 10 x more than the average european.

You still haven't shown how you HAVE to drive that much.
More likely, you choose to drive that much based on an economic calculation that you've made.
As gas prices rise, you may need to rethink your choices.
Living in a relatively compact metro area such as Vancouver, you have many transportation and location options.
The size of Canada has little to do with how much you choose to drive -- you're not commuting to Halifax, are you?

 

[ace85]

We sell our oil at a high price and then buy back high priced gasoline. Which is bad becasue we are paying markups and margins based on the high priced oil.

There is no reason why we can't produce more and sell it to our selves. Or provide after market rebates on Canadian made gasoline. This would actually allow up to take greater advantage of our net oil exports.

The key is increasing production.

Secondly the other issue is decresing the % tax on fuel and setting it as a flat per litre tax. There is no reason why the government should increase their tax wind fall becasue a neccessity (fuel) has gone up 50% in price.

Thirdly gst on gas is tax on tax.

It is all just proof of short term thinking from our head in the sand federal government.

 

[ace85]

Good quote Maury!

But I disagree that we live on a much cleaner planet than we used to. The toxins that have accumulated do not suddenly disappear nor do they decompose. They are still there. We may be polluting less than we used to, but I doubt that too. As we become more energy-efficient, suppliers in the market produce consumer goods that do more with their energy-efficiency, with the end result of total energy spent being more than what was saved due to greater efficiency. Energy spent has a high correlation to environmental pollution.

Many like to point out that there is no direct evidence of Global Warming. Determining evidence of such a grand phenomena in the environment is surely difficult, especially because there are many variables involved; it is not like you could easily determine cause-and-effect as you would in a controlled laboratory. The motivation for pointing out that there is no evidence of Global Warming is as suspect as the claim that it exists. But at least those who claim that it exists are motivated by forewarning of impending environmental disaster due to understanding that it must keep a delicate balance, whereas those who focus on the lack of direct evidence are probably motivated by the desire to continue wasteful or polluting practices.

I say when it comes to shared resources, such as the clean air or drinkable water, it is wise to use caution and heed realistic warnings even if not backed by 100% provable evidence. To wait until there is concrete evidence before taking action will only result in action too late and damage already done; it is as foolish as stating that you need evidence that smoking will with 100% certainty give you lung cancer - and in the meantime continue smoking until evidence can be presented.

Not a bad point GBM. My biggest issues lie with the KYOTO accord and the fact that it will punish nations with the greatest power to truly make technilogical leaps that will have exponential impact on a cleaner world.

It is a weak effort to "do something" for the long term. Action like that tends to be more damaging that it is worth.

It becomes more about a hollow legacy than impacting true change.

Pollutting for the sake of pollutting is obviously bad, but crippilling econmoies is no real solution either.

 

[HankQuinlan]

Will be in need of the fossil fuels longer than most other populated areas.

Comparing canada to any european country is silly our geography is huge in comparisson we need cheep fuel for vehicles.

Saying gas is so much cheaper than Britan or europe is silly. I have to drive 10 x more than the average european.

Time to change that then --- we will all be getting jobs that we can walk to and living in more isolated local communities if these trends continue.

 

[wilde]

Canada is a net consumer of processed gasoline (as you might have trouble with big words) that means we import more than we produce. This is a big issue as we are one of the most dependent nations on Gasoline (geography and population density). This is a problem, because based simply on wolrd prices puts Canada at a competitive disadvantage.

Canada would be well served to increase our gasoline production capabilites, such that we can then provide cheaper gasoline into our ecomomy.

Oil is a scarce resource meaning that it is going to run out one day. Economists like yourself who wants cheaper gasoline better get your heads out of your asses and realize this.

Why don't you get your facts straight before you start your pathetic insults. Canada is a net producer of gasoline. And if it wasn't for the market rates soaring, Alberta would not even be seeing the windfall that they are experiencing now.

If we start selling gasoline at a cheaper price than the market, it will simply be snapped up by other countries. This is Economics 101, and you have a MB what?

 

[wilde]

Pollutting for the sake of pollutting is obviously bad, but crippilling econmoies is no real solution either.

Words of wisdom from a distinguished member of Perb who believes he is of a higher intelligence. Whereas normal or shall I say, average, people would think that ANY pollution is bad.

 

[Big Trapper]

Here's some stuff to think about...

AFTER the last Ice Age, when all the continental ice sheets melted (about 8,000 to 6,000 years before present), average air and ocean temperatures were 6 to 8 degrees warmer than now. Think about that for a moment, an ocean is a pretty big chunk of water to warm up that much!

Many species completely disappeared during that intense warming period. No more sabre tooths, no more giant camels, no more mastodons, no more mammoths, no more giant cave bears, no more Neanderthals (well there still are a few around here, but we'll ignore that for the moment), the list goes on ad infinitum. We may well see a few more species disappear before this warming trend runs it's course - maybe ourselves for example!

Before modern times (but during this inter-glacial period), the forests and grasslands of the temperate parts of the world caught fire almost annually, and without modern technology and population density to put them out, burned until winter conditions put them out. The annual smoke palls most have been choking, rather like the Burns Bog fire here a few weeks ago! We have not come close to creating that kind of particulate matter pollution except in a few limited areas. However, we have created some other rather nasty types of air pollution that only existed in small amounts in history.

For the last quarter of a million years or so, the earth has been in glacial periods a considerable amount more than in inter-glacial periods (can't remember the percentage offhand, and too lazy to look it up). So we are in reality in a predominantly glacial period, but in an inter-glacial phase of it. So the overwhelming odds are that we will actually be headed INTO a period of intense glaciation once this inter-glacial period runs its course (no saying how long that will be, but it won't happen next week).

So don't buckle on the ski boots quite yet, but don't be in a great panic about global warming either. As far as Mother Nature goes - "Been there, done that."

 

[sdw]

You still haven't shown how you HAVE to drive that much.
More likely, you choose to drive that much based on an economic calculation that you've made.
As gas prices rise, you may need to rethink your choices.
Living in a relatively compact metro area such as Vancouver, you have many transportation and location options.
The size of Canada has little to do with how much you choose to drive -- you're not commuting to Halifax, are you?

It all comes down to the amount of public transportation and the ability of the public transportation to move.

In England I can live in Scotland and work in London. The train will get me there every day and once in London, I can use the tube, bus or taxi to get to any appointment much faster than if I drove myself.

In Vancouver if I live in Richmond, Surrey or Langley my car is much faster than the bus that is using the same road and caught in the same traffic as I am. Skytrain only works if your starting location and destination are both in walking distance from a Skytrain station. If you have to transfer to a bus, you might as well have used your car. If I have an appointment and call a taxi, I may have to wait an hour.

The cures for our transportation woes are simple. Take some of the real eastate that is devoted to cars and put railed transportation on it. The problem is that when it was tried in Vancouver, it was a failure. Granville Mall killed Granville St. as a destination. The customers just moved their business to Richmond, Surrey or Coquitlam because they won't deal with a public transportation system that is unreliable, won't let you carry your purchases and has no security.

 

[Fudd]

To be honest I'm not sure about this topic. When global warming first became a major environmental issue, I thought the science was sound and that the data and simulation was correct. However, recent information puts the global warming theory in doubt, if not inconclusive.

Here's an article regarding the flaw in the mathematics of global warming.

the poster-child of the global warming community, turns out to be an artifact of poor mathematics


Another article showing more flaws in the study.

Key Global Warming Study Found Flawed

It appears that the Global warming study is not holding up to scientific and mathmatical analysis.

 

[wolverine]

Many species completely disappeared during that intense warming period. No more sabre tooths, no more giant camels, no more mastodons, no more mammoths, no more giant cave bears, no more Neanderthals (well there still are a few around here, but we'll ignore that for the moment), the list goes on ad infinitum. We may well see a few more species disappear before this warming trend runs it's course - maybe ourselves for example!

Not to nitpick...but many of those species you listed were hunted into extinction by humans.

 

[Fudd]

Many species become extinct with out any human influence. Its called "Natural Selection" (See Darwins Theory of Evolution)

 

[Herb_The_Perb]

Many species become extinct with out any human influence. Its called "Natural Selection" (See Darwins Theory of Evolution)

I've heard of one species that's nearly extinct due to severe body odour.

 

[Big Trapper]

Not to nitpick...but many of those species you listed were hunted into extinction by humans.

I take it you were there?

Actually my response to you Wolverine, was kind of stupid, because I wasn't there either. But I can surmise that with a limited population, and thus no need for that massive an amount of meat, and without gunpowder based hunting weapons, I just don't see the ancient humans being responsible for extinctions on a grand scale. The occasional sabre tooth or cave bear may have fallen victim to some clever hunting strategies, but the losses of experienced hunters as a result would just not have been sustainable.

Even the populations of the last vestiges of stone age hunters that survived into modern times were not able to decimate the African or North American herds the way that hunters armed with firearms were - in combination with burgeoning populations using steel age farming implements capable of wiping out the animals' habitats. Add to that the knowledge that the North American bison was all but wiped out by less than a decade of extremely severe winters - the same winters that almost wiped out the North American elk.

 

[ace85]

Words of wisdom from a distinguished member of Perb who believes he is of a higher intelligence. Whereas normal or shall I say, average, people would think that ANY pollution is bad.

So do you breath everyday WILDE, you should really address your production of carbon dioxide.

There are lots of pollutions that are a reality of a modern society. How do you get around bus, train, car, hot air balloon.

The difference between you and me is I recognize the reality of issues, while you float in some idealistic little mans fantasy world.

 

[ace85]

You still haven't shown how you HAVE to drive that much.
More likely, you choose to drive that much based on an economic calculation that you've made.
As gas prices rise, you may need to rethink your choices.
Living in a relatively compact metro area such as Vancouver, you have many transportation and location options.
The size of Canada has little to do with how much you choose to drive -- you're not commuting to Halifax, are you?

Driving for work. I do work all over Alberta. Goods are transported all over Canada.

The reality is the population density of Canada is a huge factor in determining the economic viability of our country.

There are obviously tons of transportation options in Vancouver, funny thing is you seem to take for granted the true environmental impact of dense urban populations on the local environment. Vancouver alone is polluting the ocean horribly, the concrete steel, treated wood and all the other non natural materials in your urban setting have horrible impacts on the environment.

There is a nice haze hanging over Vancouver today from man made pollution, your garbage where does it go.

Canada has lots of land and keeping the population spread out is good for society. It reduces crime and keep artificial factors (like exorbitant realestate prices out of an economy).

The benefits of Mas Transit, or close proximity of services is a neccissary evil of Mass Urbanization, not an ideal.

 

[wolverine]

Not true at all.

We would need to look at the benefits the come from the activity (such as nuclear power generation, use of cars, smokestacks, etc...) relative to the pollution produced.

We need power. That means pollution.

We need to move around at a faster pace then bicycles allow. That means pollution.

Etc....

It is quite naive to think we can have zero pollution.

Quit putting words into other people's mouths. Nobody said anything about achieving zero pollution, but reducing it.

 

[memyselfandI]

Actually my response to you Wolverine, was kind of stupid, because I wasn't there either. But I can surmise that with a limited population, and thus no need for that massive an amount of meat, and without gunpowder based hunting weapons, I just don't see the ancient humans being responsible for extinctions on a grand scale. The occasional sabre tooth or cave bear may have fallen victim to some clever hunting strategies, but the losses of experienced hunters as a result would just not have been sustainable.

Actually Big Trapper, you are in error. Do not underestimate the hunting ability of those old Neolithic tribes (did I spell that right). The evidence is actually pretty clear that mass extinction of megafauna tracked extremely closely with the appearance of hunting humans in North America and Australia.

I would recommend Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. He does some excellent work in this area, and is a very even handed dude. Plus its just a fabulous book.

 

[georgebushmoron]

Driving for work. I do work all over Alberta. Goods are transported all over Canada.

The reality is the population density of Canada is a huge factor in determining the economic viability of our country.

There are obviously tons of transportation options in Vancouver, funny thing is you seem to take for granted the true environmental impact of dense urban populations on the local environment. Vancouver alone is polluting the ocean horribly, the concrete steel, treated wood and all the other non natural materials in your urban setting have horrible impacts on the environment.

There is a nice haze hanging over Vancouver today from man made pollution, your garbage where does it go.

Canada has lots of land and keeping the population spread out is good for society. It reduces crime and keep artificial factors (like exorbitant realestate prices out of an economy).

The benefits of Mas Transit, or close proximity of services is a neccissary evil of Mass Urbanization, not an ideal.

Your postings are intelligent. I enjoyed them, thanks!

 

[ace85]

Your postings are intelligent. I enjoyed them, thanks!

UMM Thanks GBM.

 

[wilde]

There are lots of pollutions that are a reality of a modern society. How do you get around bus, train, car, hot air balloon.

Ever heard of bicycle or god forbids, walking?

It was nice to see your transformation in this thread from "I drive a lot and therefore I need cheap oil" to a half ass environmentalist.