first past the post vs. proportional representation

badbadboy

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For every Italy there is a New Zealand though. Would the number of parties represented in the legislature not depend on the relative percentages gained?
Italy being the worst case and New Zealand the best case scenario.

I am in favour of proportional representation as it does make everyone's vote count. Not voting because some corporate or union candidate would win it anyways is not democratic. Though it is possible for the first past the post winner and the proportional winner be from the same two dominant parties anyways.
 
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treveller

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Sep 22, 2008
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The scare tactics (usually involving Nazis) are being promoted like if we change and people don't like it, we can't change our voting system ever again.

I say try if for a few election cycles and see if it works...
The stated NDP plan, and I think the referendum legislation or regulation, provides for a second referendum after two elections if PR is implemented. If PR is defeated there will probably be no second referendum for a generation. Voting YES for PR is the only reasonable choice.
 
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treveller

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The three PR systems proposed all contain a 5% threshold for proportionality. If a party doesn't get 5% of the popular vote it will not benefit from proportional representation. It may win some district seats but will not receive any top up or proportional seats.

I don't like having a threshold but I see the political need for it. It guts the complaints about "fringe parties" having too much power.

Allowing representation of smaller parties in the legislature is an arrangement called "democracy". We should give it a try, at least for two elections, before we vote again on whether or not to keep it.
 

overdone

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Overdone: your argument isn't logical. You are lumping all the non-voters into the "don't want it" category. "Don't care" can be as easily lumped into a "sure, why not" category. I could flip your argument and say that 40% who didn't vote had no objection to proportional representation.
no, he said there is interest in the subject

when you have no one but the minority talking about it, you have no real interest

go out on the street, no one's talking about it, they don't care about it, that isn't

"sure why not"

that's disinterest, the opposite of "interested"

the average person isn't aware of who their politicians are, how many times have you seen on tv when they can't tell you who the mayor/PM/MP/MLA/Councillor is? lol

the logic is in reality

this isn't a subject the voting public as a whole cares about

if you polled it, it wouldn't even make the list of the top 10

the media keep bringing it up

the NDP who can't get enough support to form a majority in the Fed system, the fringe parties like the greens, they're interested in it, cause they crave power and can't get it under the current system


not the public in large numbers

if there was, they'd be out voting in droves, they aren't/haven't

he said there's interest, there isn't

people who are interested, are for it, which is a small %
 

clu

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he said there's interest, there isn't
Just for clarity, "he" is me. You were replying to me, I replied back.

I said there was an appetite. Your ~25% is not a small percentage, and is in fact more than half the people who had an opinion on it. i.e. the majority of those who bothered to vote said "yes".

When you are in a group of 4 and ask what everyone wants to have for supper, if 2 people say they don't care, that doesn't mean you don't eat. Non-participants can take what comes for being non-participants.

the NDP who can't get enough support to form a majority in the Fed system, the fringe parties like the greens, they're interested in it, cause they crave power and can't get it under the current system
Again flipping your argument the Liberals and Conservatives would crave FPTP because it gives them a statistical edge via a false majority.

Why is it so abhorrent that the mix of the government's ideologies represent, in proportion, the mix of its constituents' ideologies? In a time when we were more geographically isolated, a geographic representative encapsulated both, but not so much these days where people move around. Even then, the new systems being proposed favour modernising the vote in urban areas while leaving intact rural representation (where geography still matters more).

The only reason I can see for not wanting to have the government be fair, proportional representation of the electorate (even the people whose opinion you don't like) is that it takes away the unfair advantage afforded to your preferred party.

Anyway, your argument is wholly inconsistent: On the one hand you're arguing PR shouldn't happen because it doesn't have true majority support (but only if you count the non-voters). On the other you are arguing that we should keep a system that gives a party that didn't have true majority support a majority government (whether you count non-voters or not).

Which is it?

Anyway, that's why we have votes: I am happy to see it go to a vote and if the majority of the voting public (excluding those who couldn't bother to vote) want it, then we get it. My opinion and yours are but two voices. We'll find out what the rest have to say. It would be foolish and hypocritical to object to the result of that IMHO.
 
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badbadboy

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Nov 2, 2006
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The better we are to distance ourselves from the tribalism seen in the USA, Canadian Federal System and Provincial politics the better.

This inability to work in a bipartisan way is pathetic to watch. Many people are fed up with the antics displayed to hold power over another to the detriment of society. More voices need to be heard to break these bottlenecks.

I can't see our existing systems being effective with a mentality that our side is better than your side.
 

Russell204

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Jun 21, 2011
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I look forward to voting for PR and having BC government better represent the politics of our citizens. The current system has not consistently brought quality government.
 

Bridge

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Nov 11, 2014
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I look forward to voting for PR and having BC government better represent the politics of our citizens. The current system has not consistently brought quality government.
Agreed. Surely quality government is what we want and need to deal with some of the pressing challenges that lie ahead. As BBB says the tribalism to the south should not be copied as it does not encourage any kind of constructive dialogue.
 

licks2nite

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Nov 30, 2006
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Ideologically, with the Green Party the NDP has more to lose in proportional representation than the BC Liberals. At least as long as voters are savvy enough to know that both Green and NDP are socialists, a PR system would split the socialist vote in favour of the Green Party. Although a few fringe conservative movements are about that could split voting on the political right, essentially independent candidates who haven't been heard from lately and may not even be around anymore, such as Van Dongen.

Essentially a diversion from a harsh reality. For British Columbians in general it's a matter of living in the fantasy economy of going to jobs that don't produce anything and for the most part jobs that are acts of consumption that are actually a drain on the resources of Canada and British Columbia. Raw materials exported to pay for imported products. The PR system amounts to another diversion from the harsh reality that the Canadian economy is a slow motion train wreak that started at the end of World War II. Early wholesale taxes on exports, the "brain drain" and flight of entrepreneurs, judiciary growing rich on permitting exorbitant union wage gains that drove out foreign branch plants that were producing for the local Canadian consumer, trade treaties that guarantee Canadian retailers access to cheap marginalized and sometimes slave labour overseas ruining a different environment in exchange for unfettered access to Canadian natural resources. Legalization of cannabis is a similar diversion as is same sex marriage. In the end, PR or FPTP won't make much difference. The politicians will have to find yet another attention getting diversion if the politicians and the electorate can't fix the Canadian economy. It's really getting harsh when freedom loving Canadians have to ignore or don't care that Canadians are using slave labour somewhere to support their own lifestyle.
 

clu

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Small note to licks2nite's post above regarding independents: I don't think independents benefit from proportional representation at all. PR assigns extra seats to balance party ratios. You'd have to run a double-bill independent pairing in some form to reap the benefit of PR. There's no mechanism for solo unaffiliated candidates. Also I think I remember something about needing at least 5% of the aggregate popular vote to qualify for the PR seats even if you did have other affiliate candidates (i.e. were part of a party).
 

treveller

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The effect of PR on independents depends on what version of PR you use. If you use STV, the system recommended by the Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform in 2005, the one that had 58% voter support, then independents do extremely well, to the point of weakening party discipline and forcing representatives to listen to their constituents. STV is so effective at making politicians listen to voters that the Irish politicians complain about having to spend so much time dealing with their constituents concerns.

For the present referendum the Rural-Urban PR option is mostly STV. If you think MLAs should do more to represent their constituents and less to represent their party then Rural-Urban PR would be your first choice.
 

treveller

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There are so many garbage comments in these three pages that there is no point in trying to correct the misinformation.

Lets try something different now that everyone has (or can get) referendum ballots. For the people who are going to vote but haven't done so yet, do you have any questions about FPTP, Proportional Representation, Dual Member Proportional, Mixed Member Proportional, Rural-Urban Proportional?
 

80watts

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When I went to school some years ago, on sports day for the various races there was 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places for any particular race. So the losers were sore loser back then and never forgot it and now everybody gets a ribbon for participating.... Tell me that is not fucked up. Competition, cream rising to the top, best performers are now mediocre, things get missed, services suffers...etc.

Now you want to do this to voting.... And confuse the fuck out of everybody....


When voting I want to know who I am voting for; I believe the person with the most votes should win the seat/riding. The seat or riding depends on the number of people in it. Each seat is to have an equal number of voters behind it. Nothings perfect. The seat/riding represents in parliament those people in that particular riding, and the elected MLA tries to get shit for their area/riding.... And at the beginning of TIME parties formed to elect similar blocks of interests....

As for only 60% of voters turning out, the other 40% probably don't give a fuck, as long as the government doesn't fuck things up too badly, if they do, they toss them out the next election.... After all life is pretty good here in Canada... you get medical, its a free country (if you don't count taxes) and as long as you don't break laws you're fine... (that song lyrics-- " FREEDOM is just another word for nothing left to do")

I see politicians mainly as crooks, untouchable only by their bad behaviour when found out or stabbed in the back by a fellow politician... They are human - they lie, cheat and steal, just like the rest of humanity.... a matter of degree on how you look at it.

This proportional representation is how you get an person like Trump in the white house. You don't get a vote on that person, or against a person (you don't want in), you don't know who you are getting when you vote. In other words you voted, you voted for a party , not a particular person. People identify with people, not some party ideology.
 

licks2nite

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Nov 30, 2006
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John Horgan and Andrew Wilkinson debate PR vs. FPP tonight, Thursday November 8th so I won't mark my ballot until tomorrow. As it is I'm still committed to "first past the post" since a winning candidate is committed to working for all constituents in order to win in the next election. Speak about fairness to a political party all you like under "proportional representation", however fairness to the voter comes first. You can't actually think that your candidate can serve you as well if the candidate is beholden to the party and/or committees for appointments after the election.
 

Amerix

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May 7, 2004
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There are so many garbage comments in these three pages that there is no point in trying to correct the misinformation.

Lets try something different now that everyone has (or can get) referendum ballots. For the people who are going to vote but haven't done so yet, do you have any questions about FPTP, Proportional Representation, Dual Member Proportional, Mixed Member Proportional, Rural-Urban Proportional?
Yes. Where is BC-STV? I voted for STV in 2005, but I'm voting for FPTP this time around. I will not vote for any process that allows parties to appoint insiders who no one actually voted directly for to Parliament. That isn't how our system is supposed to work.

Also, this process has been horrible mishandled by Weaver and Eby in a blatant attempt to steal the referendum. The only way to express my disapproval of this process is to vote FPTP.
 

DSP

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STV is part of the RUP system for urban ridings (rural ridings would use MMP) and is as close as we're going to get on this ballot.
 

Wolfman_jack

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Sep 9, 2006
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For me it comes down to fairness. Why should 40% of the vote grant a Party total control? If you can't garner 50% of the vote you should have to collaborate with others in a formal agreement or a series of ad hoc agreements.

Why do we want a government based upon winner-take-all mindsets? Our world is complex and requires us to work collaboratively in order to overcome problems -- especially complex and significant problems like mitigating climate change.

Here is an analogy that (clearly I hope) demonstrates the key flaw of FPTP. You and 9 friends go out for drinks. You all confer and the drink orders are 2 beer, 3 wine, 4 coffee, and 1 soda. The waiter heads off and puts the orders into the computer. Since the "majority" ordered coffee everyone gets coffee. You have 4 happy people and 6 unhappy.

Why do we have to accept an electoral system that would never be acceptable in any other venue? With PR seats closely reflect voter preferences -- the politicians have to learn to cooperate and work together instead of changing tyrannies every 5 years.

The only people who win in FPTP is the ultra-rich elites that don't want to see citizens be empowered. Follow the money backing the "No" side.
 

Wolfman_jack

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Sep 9, 2006
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Yes. Where is BC-STV? I voted for STV in 2005, but I'm voting for FPTP this time around. I will not vote for any process that allows parties to appoint insiders who no one actually voted directly for to Parliament. That isn't how our system is supposed to work.

Also, this process has been horrible mishandled by Weaver and Eby in a blatant attempt to steal the referendum. The only way to express my disapproval of this process is to vote FPTP.
None of the PR options have appointed insiders. Sadly, you've been taken in by the lies of the "No" side. The current system allows for insiders to choose candidates. Which they frequently do and since they drop those candidates into safe ridings there is zero chance for voters to deny them office. The last example of this was when Christy Clark lost in Vancouver West and the BC Liberal Party chose to gift her the seat in Kelowna.

The PR option you might be thinking about is MMP which will have "open lists" which puts all the control in the hands of voters not Parties. Each Party will publish their list of candidates (chosen via internal and hopefully democratic process by Party members) and you rank them from 1 to 82 (assuming 82 seats to fill). You have all the choice, not some insider.

I suggest you look at the experience of New Zealand. Their "No" side made all the same lame, tired arguments. They have had many (17?) years to sort out the kinks with MMP and are doing quite better with it in terms of all real measures -- minority representation & women representation are closer to the demographics, regional representation has improved, and NZ gets better marks on International lists of democratic performance.
 

rlock

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Watching the debate on it right now. Horgan's game for a fight, but I don't think he's got the right answers people need to hear. Wilkinson's just pushing this "Project Fear" thing - a combination of distortion, scare-tactics, and deliberately confusing the voters. Let's call them near-lies.


I am definitely in favour of getting rid of First Past The Post.


People here may be used to it, but they don't know what a shitty system it actually is compared to what else is out there.

FPTP is designed to assume there are only two possible political choices. It actively works against having more choice than that.

We already see that it results in total polarization, and extreme partisanship becomes the rule. There is not incentive for a politician to do anything but the most dirty campaigning style, because the objective is to take your minority of votes and leverage it into absolute power.

Does FPTP produce governments that the majority of voters actually supported ? No. Do the legislation they produce and the policies they make have that stamp of legitimacy, that most people are actually in favour of it rather than against? No. Do the local MP's or MLA's get to actually claim the majority of their own communities chose them as representatives? In most cases, they get in by being a larger minority than the other minorities.

Most votes under FPTP are wasted - your vote comes to nothing. Most governments rule by projecting their 35% or so of the vote into a majority of seats, and absolute power.

Many voters are stuck voting strategically, against the party they don't want instead of the party that they would really rather choose because they believe in it.


Really that is what FPTP is designed for: for one party to rule ALONE, no matter if the majority of voters did not choose to support it.

If you take notice of those lobbyists who are against Proportional Representation, what they all have in common is the belief that a minority ruling over the majority (instead of having to answer to it), is what they want.

The thing about ProRep is:
- The parties get only as much power as they actually deserve. What could be wrong with that?
- You get more political choice. Never mind that FPTP strategic voting shit, and no more unjustified pressure to just choose from 1 of 2 political options. Choose what you actually believe in, and your vote actually counts.


I'm going to shout out some basic principles here, and then explain how it relates to this Electoral Reform issue:

VOTING IS NOT A GAME, IT IS ABOUT VOTERS CHOOSING WHO REPRESENTS THEM.
DEMOCRACY MEANS GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PEOPLE.
GOVERNMENTS MUST HAVE LEGITIMACY IN ORDER TO RULE.


People (the media especially) call FPTP a "horse-race" or otherwise treat politics like a sport, where the contest is a sort of entertainment, winning is the only issue that matters, and there's some prize for being the champ. Nope. It's is about representing your local community or region, and combined, having a legislature that accurately represents what the people actually wanted to govern them. If you can't say that you really represent your community, or that the government people end up with is actually the one they wanted, then you have no legitimacy there. Having the "consent to govern" from the voters is the core of democracy, and elections are all about obtaining it.

Yes, every political contest has winners and losers, but the real test is: do people really accept the result? Obviously not everyone gets what they wanted, but if they see that most of their community (Local or overall) actually wanted it, they are willing to accept it happening. Proportional achieves this; FPTP usually doesn't.

With FPTP: Each of 81 or 338 (or whatever number) individual races take place, and the winner of each one could have won with 75% of the vote, but also maybe just 30 % of the vote - as long as he or she has 1 vote more than their nearest opponent. That's not exactly a real standard of whether the community does or doesn't want you governing on their behalf. Add up all these small contests and you get a result - usually a majority of seats going to a political party that never even managed to get a majority of the peoples' support. A legislative "false majority" is built, where seats are counted not votes, no matter how narrow of fragmented the "victory" is, it's considered absolute. As soon as the resulting government tries to do something, it's probably going to be over the objections of most of the people who voted. Why does it seem like most governments act like assholes? Because that's the way the system is - they end up ramming their ideological agenda down most peoples' throats, knowing that if they actually had to get support from the majority of people, they'd be fucked. FPTP has trained our politicians to act like spoiled brats: sharing power is not seen as desirable of they can leverage a tiny advantage in votes into absolute power and the ability to rule alone.

Proportion Representation is different:
The power each party has is much closer to the support they actually got. Governments (premier and cabinet ministers) are formed, and get to rule because they have a majority of voters who support them. Sure, maybe that's not all one party, but of the people wanted just one party in charge, than most of them would have chosen that. More realistically, the parties have to grow up and work with enough other parties that they can say they have most of the voters behind them. This isn't some kumbaya-singing bullshit; these fuckers belong to us, and they should not rule unless they can get at least most of us on their side. Nobody gets everything they want? Fine, as long as you're not sticking most people with what they don't want!

People bring up the stability issue, but the past few decades have proved that FPTP is not any more stable. If fractures things according to region, much of the time; some areas get a treat, while others get ignored. And FPTP produces a fucked up sort of polarizing politics that really blow up and chance of stability if no party can get a majority of seats (something which is increasingly common, despite FPTP distorting the results to force this outcome). How to negotiate a minority government after you've burned all your bridges already? Like I said before, these clowns are trained to only imagine themselves in power alone, with no obstacles to doing what they want. Proportional governments are just as stable, and much more fair - people see the election outcome as legitimate, and it's up to their parties to figure out a way to move forward from there. Though this does depend on the rules of a legislature, many places with PR have rules that parties cannot just "blow up" a government for a new election, if there's some other alternative deal that can be found.

As for the issue of "fringers", with PR, there are minimum thresholds for getting into the legislature at all. No weird-ass micro parties get very far. FPTP actually has more potential for weirdos; all you have to do is take over one riding nomination battle in a "safe" seat for one mainsteam party, and you're in there. Frankly, if a new party grows its support to the point where many people vote for it, and it routinely challenges for seats, then it's not "fringe" anymore.

As for the issue of "extremists" much the same principle applies. Under PR, a small band of hardliners might form a party and get a minor presence in the legislature, but if they're horrible, they can be excluded easily from holding power so long as the bigger parties can swallow their own pride and not make any "deal with the devil" to keep out their mainstream rivals. Again, with PR parties also have the inventive to not make bitter enemies of everyone else. If you want to grow beyond a nugget-sized party, you still have to convince people to support your views. For extremists, First Past The Post is actually the best system, because it gives extremists the chance to do the thing they always want: gain absolute power. FPTP means the extremists do not need majority support or anywhere near it to take many more seats, take power alone, and tyrannize the majority who never supported them.

Bottom line: FPTP is for those who crave absolute unchecked power as a minority opinion, instead of ever having to convince most people to go their way. Proportional guarantees that you have to have real majority support in order to hold power.

Got it, folks ?
 
Ashley Madison
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