first past the post vs. proportional representation

nightswhisper

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Feb 20, 2016
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PR is not a solution to FPTP. It's just moving the problem elsewhere.

Thankfully, we live in a country with a relatively short history, balanced social equality and mostly just and righteous people. MMP and PR systems in the hands of a small group of corrupt and wicked allows small parties to depose popular movements and create deadlock.

You're just going to have to hope that there isn't a group of underlying pricks who won't take advantage of bait-and-switch tactics in politics.

Neither of the two systems is good. They both suck. It's up to you to decide which one is the lesser evil.
 

rlock

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May 20, 2015
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Depose? Deadlock ? No. Most places with PR work far more smoothly than here in Canada.

FPTP is failing here in Canada, it's failing in the UK, it's a fucking basket case in the US.

FPTP is basically the worst of all electoral systems in use around the world.

The days when the system can restrict people to choose Left Party and Right Party and nothing else are over.

The elite wants things to go back to just 2 political choices, and even the media which hates complexity and love the lazy simple tale they can tell in each election. That's why FPTP has lasted this long.
But it's not true to the way people think, the real political culture where "left" and "right" just don't cut it anymore.

BC under PR would likely have 4 parties - a BC Conservative party for social conservatives and rural folks; a BC Liberal party for urban business big shots who don't care about traditional morality; a socialist NDP, and an ecologist Green party.

The conservative voters ended up forced by FPTP to call themselves "BC Liberal" supporters too, joining so they don't split the "pro-business" vote, but if they didn't have to worry about that under PR, there would be two separate parties there.

The NDP keep hoping the environmentalist Greens tone down what they want and vote NDP instead, but they're not the same - just ask the trades unions who are always at odds with environmentalists. The Greens are very independent minded voters, and are not a bunch of disaffected NDPers, no matter how FPTP supporters like Tieleman try to portray the NDP as an automatic catch-all party for anyone who wants to put the brakes on big business. Well the Greens only want to put the brakes on environmental damage; they're indifferent socialism and unionism.

First Past The Post is for those who want political polarization, or more accurately for those deceitful politicians who feel they need it to keep any chance of holding power all by themselves.
 

rlock

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May 20, 2015
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BTW, I watched tonight's "debate" but it was hard to stomach.
It was a mistake to allow to party leaders to be the voice of their respective sides.
Call that a debate? The intellectual side of it, the practical information, was nearly nil.
Really, it was just two partisans stupidly slinging mud at each other as they tried to score points. Politics as usual, and it sucked.
 

rlock

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May 20, 2015
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Yes. Where is BC-STV? I voted for STV in 2005, but I'm voting for FPTP this time around. I will not vote for any process that allows parties to appoint insiders who no one actually voted directly for to Parliament. That isn't how our system is supposed to work.

Also, this process has been horrible mishandled by Weaver and Eby in a blatant attempt to steal the referendum. The only way to express my disapproval of this process is to vote FPTP.



I'm going for MMP. The others are less appealing, but yeah, you're right that STV should have been among the choices.
STV is a good idea for a provincial system with only one legislative house, and would balance the ideological and geographical components. But I think maybe someone told them that they couldn't or shouldn't put the same system up for consideration again.

I'm also not convinced that Horgan really wanted to proceed wit this - the Greens definitely did, but NDP opinion tends to be mixed.

If you remember, it was BC Liberal premier Gordon Campbell who originally tried to bring in STV or at least consider it. That was after the perverse result where the Liberals won the popular vote, but the NDP won more seats (making Glen Clark premier). That's a typical FPTP thing - it's all about how the vote splits go in each riding, more than the general level of support for each party.

MMP is not bad, but I think much would depend on how they would draw those boundaries for it. Don't expect anything too freaky.

I do take issue with those who say PR is "too complex". If you have enough IQ to order food from a restaurant, you should be able to figure out your choice in a PR election. FPTP is very simple, but it lacks legitimacy.

If they really wanted to make local representation the top priority, they could use a runoff system where each riding where no majority was reached go through a runoff election between the top two. Preferential ballots (like Alternative Voting and STV) just take that concept and put the voting in a single round, using preferential voting (marking 1st choice, 2nd, 3rd, etc.).

MMP is easy enough to explain - you can vote for parties and a local candidate. Independent local candidates are still possible, which matters to some people, though not to most.

Looking at FPTP today, people really do not have much input - the party leaders decide who is eligible to run and have too much power to censure members who disagree with them. Power is concentrated in the leader's office.
 

rlock

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May 20, 2015
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I'll tell you a funny story from when the federal government was looking into electoral reform.

They had a local meeting, where a political science prof was called in to give his opinion. Well, being an academic, he did a lot of dissembling, saying that each system had its merits and flaws, and telling them it really depended on what objectives they wanted to achieve. This really didn't go over well with the MP's on the committee; they wanted him to make a value judgement on which system was the best, which of course the prof would not do. He just kept returning to the idea that they should be clear what sort of objectives they wanted to achieve, and then he could tell them which system was the best way to achieve it. It was a bit of a standoff: the prof didn't want to bias their committee study, though obviously he knew enough as an expert on elections that if you gave it to just him to design a system, he could have probably done it all in a day.
PS: by objectives, this meant things such as: prioritizing local or national representation, equalizing urban versus rural, diversity of parties/ideas, clarity of results, simplicity of procedures, transparency of procedures, accuracy of results, rapidity of results, controlling election costs, tightening or loosening internal party discipline, etc. - there is a lot to consider.)

One thing that is different for this BC process than the federal one is that the federal one was a much deeper look at each option, with way more concentration. Such a shame that Trudeau turned chicken about the idea and pulled the plug. Some say the federal Liberals wanted the "Alternative Voting" system to advantage themselves, but never had the guts to come out and say so. Really the tide of opinion at those hearings kept going back towards MMP, with STV probably coming in second.
 

nightswhisper

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Feb 20, 2016
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DEMOCRACY MEANS GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PEOPLE.
That is the idea of a social contract (sort of) and not Democracy.

FPTP is closer to true democracy than any form of PR.

Democracy was a way for Greek Athenian property owners and those with vested interest in the state to elect technocrats and ordinary citizens into official posts. The voters then had to fight in the wars they started as soldiers (literally and figuratively) and paid consequences if they voted wrongly. Therefore, the voting elite had tremendous burden to vote carefully. So it really wasn't about electing a government so much as it was everyone being responsible to everyone else with their votes.

Modern democracy on the other hand, gives suffrage to often uneducated and easily manipulated masses (who elected such leaders as Hitler and Trump into power). The masses are then excused from bad choices "because it's the elected's fault!", and it is hardly a good system. PR is worse than FPTP because it further takes merit out of the equation and replaces it with a numbers game.

We are facing a crisis of identity as a nation and a generation of adults, and PR will make things worse. This should hardly be time for electoral reform, but rather governance reform.

Depose? Deadlock ? No. Most places with PR work far more smoothly than here in Canada.
PR has failed in Albania and Italy. It has also created slow-moving legislation in Pre-War Germany and, to some extent, modern Germany. The former due to corruption and the latter due to fractured franchising. In New Zealand, the "patron saint" of PR-styled government, there are specific tactics used by smaller parties to gain power at the cost of the bigger parties which has caused more than a few scoffs among the population. In voting situations where an issue boils down to one or two votes, the underhang or overhang seats can result in massive power being vested in the smallest political parties, which puts power into even smaller entities and defeats the purpose of PR fixing FPTP minority governance in entirety. Therefore, PR doesn't fix the biggest problem people have with FPTP (minority governance) but merely moves it around into another form(tactical voting). Most of the time, politicians will be focused on strategising seat maximization rather than trying to deliver a political platform. This is particularly useful for political parties who often pander to large numbers of lower- and lower-middle-class voters and wreaks havoc for conservative (upper-class) and liberals (propertied bourgeois).

New Zealand has a very different agenda (economy first) than Canada (diplomacy first). It has a smaller land mass, less primary industries, and a homogenous geopolitical climate. Your support of FTPT or PR should be based on your preference of elitism (FPTP) or Mass Franchising (Any form of PR), and not "case study" of another country.

The elite wants things to go back to just 2 political choices, and even the media which hates complexity and love the lazy simple tale they can tell in each election. That's why FPTP has lasted this long.
But it's not true to the way people think, the real political culture where "left" and "right" just don't cut it anymore.
Elitism is quick and efficient, but sacrifices humanity and compassion to achieve results. The US is an oligarchic plutocracy that has a powerhouse economy, a massive military, and competitive spirits among its population. The lack of social stability and welfare, while driving crime up, also force people to be more industrious and hardworking to make ends meet. Socialist-Capitalist states like Canada and France (Which had a strike some time ago when work-hour minimum was raised from 20-hours to 30 hours (or some arbitrarily low number)) tend to be less productive more laidback.

However, elitism is seldom popular. After all, elites lack numerical superiority.

BC will likely switch to PR because the elite ruling class aren't here. We have almost no old-money lineages in BC and most of them live back East. As such, we never fostered elitist culture here and is probably why we clamour for PR.

I'm not vouching for either system, but merely pointing out that FPTP isn't all that bad, and that PR isn't really going solve the problems any quicker. People are growing convinced that FPTP is bad but fail to see the vice and virtue of BOTH systems.

Our problem really isn't electoral reform. Our problem is that we repeatedly elect losers into power, and subsequently agree with them.
 
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ddcanz

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Feb 27, 2012
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right here and now
FPTP all the way. IMO, it's the best way to get shit done- regardless of whether you approve of said issue or not or which party you support. No one will ever be happy with every decision a majority government makes, and it seems that all the participation ribbon crowd wants 'fairness' throughout. But what exactly is 'fair'? 9 people at a table all disagreeing on their drink order?
Voters need to better educate themselves on who they actually vote into power and not just knee-jerk every time we get somewhat fed up. As nightswhisper notes "our problem is that we repeatedly elect losers into power...."
Whatever positives there are to any of the PR systems will ultimately be lost with special interest parties/groups forming blocks. Same as the Greens currently backing the NDP. If the PR referendum comes out 'no' you can soon expect Dr. Weaver to go rogue and crash the Legislature.
And no way am I voting for any undefined new PR systems that will be manipulated to best serve those that currently sit in the chair- or changed up as we move forward. Just watch your taxes rise and get pissed away- left, right and center.
 

Deguire

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Aug 23, 2018
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FPTP for me. It has stood the test of time and serves us well. Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them. At election time, you get the chance to throw the b*st*rds out and bring in the next lot of b*st*ards. If you have six lots of b*st*ards to choose from, you can't form a government and then figure out what they stand for. Right now in B.C. we have the Green tail wagging the NDP dog. Not good. In the previous election we wanted a Liberal government and we got it. This time we wanted an NDP government but we didn't want it quite badly enough. Next time?
 

nightswhisper

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Feb 20, 2016
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But what exactly is 'fair'? 9 people at a table all disagreeing on their drink order?
This is a supremely valid point. Someone argued that the current system with 4 people drinking coffee and being a minor-majority would end up getting coffee for everyone at the table. The reality is that they only need to convince 1 extra person who "doesn't mind coffee" to agree. 5 / 9 people at the table will be happy.

In a Proportional Representation system, 9 people will likely have up to 9 different choices, but must now fight and argue for only 1 drink for the entire table. This means that, to get the same result as the FPTP system, the people who like coffee will have to sacrifice a tremendous amount of time and bargaining power to either strongarm or persuade people who don't like coffee into liking coffee. And in the end, you get everyone drinking coffee and more people who feel like they could have ordered something else.
 

storm rider

Banned
Dec 6, 2008
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FPTP all the way. IMO, it's the best way to get shit done- regardless of whether you approve of said issue or not or which party you support. No one will ever be happy with every decision a majority government makes, and it seems that all the participation ribbon crowd wants 'fairness' throughout. But what exactly is 'fair'? 9 people at a table all disagreeing on their drink order?
Voters need to better educate themselves on who they actually vote into power and not just knee-jerk every time we get somewhat fed up. As nightswhisper notes "our problem is that we repeatedly elect losers into power...."
Whatever positives there are to any of the PR systems will ultimately be lost with special interest parties/groups forming blocks. Same as the Greens currently backing the NDP. If the PR referendum comes out 'no' you can soon expect Dr. Weaver to go rogue and crash the Legislature.
And no way am I voting for any undefined new PR systems that will be manipulated to best serve those that currently sit in the chair- or changed up as we move forward. Just watch your taxes rise and get pissed away- left, right and center.
I like your anology and I agree with 100%.The parties that want Proportional Representation are the FRINGE parties who CRAVE/WANT more power without having the electorate to deliver it to them.

You hold an election and each party makes the pitch on the hustings towards the electorate be it Civic/Provincial/Federal.The electorate casts it's collective choice and the ballots are counted and in each ward/seat/riding the candidate
with the most votes represents.....pretty fucking simple.Not so simple if you are on the outside and looking in.

I dont give a rats ass if the Green party took 10% of the popular vote in the last Federal election.....if in ALL ridings their candidates did not get enough votes to WIN then they should not be given seats like handing out participation
trophies.

There is nothing wrong with Canada's electoral process/system as it stands.....what is wrong is that far too many Canadians do not take the time to participate in it.Our voter turnout is less than 50% which is pretty pathetic.

Anytime I get into a personal conversation or even a group conversation about politics the first question I ask is "did you vote?" and if the answer is no I tell the person to STFU....if you are not part of the process
you dont get to bitch about it.

SR
 

80watts

Well-known member
May 20, 2004
3,250
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I like your anology and I agree with 100%.The parties that want Proportional Representation are the FRINGE parties who CRAVE/WANT more power without having the electorate to deliver it to them.

You hold an election and each party makes the pitch on the hustings towards the electorate be it Civic/Provincial/Federal.The electorate casts it's collective choice and the ballots are counted and in each ward/seat/riding the candidate
with the most votes represents.....pretty fucking simple.Not so simple if you are on the outside and looking in.

I dont give a rats ass if the Green party took 10% of the popular vote in the last Federal election.....if in ALL ridings their candidates did not get enough votes to WIN then they should not be given seats like handing out participation
trophies.

There is nothing wrong with Canada's electoral process/system as it stands.....what is wrong is that far too many Canadians do not take the time to participate in it.Our voter turnout is less than 50% which is pretty pathetic.

Anytime I get into a personal conversation or even a group conversation about politics the first question I ask is "did you vote?" and if the answer is no I tell the person to STFU....if you are not part of the process
you dont get to bitch about it.

SR
If those 3rd and 4th party Fringe parties come up with some neat shit, the main parties will usually adopt it into their platforms; it just takes some time.

What happens in Canada is that we vote governments out for doing bad things; the thing is not letting the parties buy your vote and in the future it hurts you. eg. I'll lower taxes...That works for about 3 successive flip flop of governments until someone tells the government they are broke....and have to raise taxes... (oh wait, that has happened in BC.... before)

As for not voting, nobody has the right to tell other people to STFU, because they didn't vote, its just rude. That just like "I'm going to hold my breath until you come over to my side"..... and it belittles you to everyone in the conversation. Most people say that, because they do not like where the conversation is going; and say it as a interlude to breaking up the political conversation.

To me its the equivalent to hearing someone saying "I've paid my dues" as an argument for being....

Both lines piss people off, and you are doing it on purpose....

But you can propose to take away everyone's vote.... they'd all agree that won't be done...

Voting is the right to chose...

Personally I want to vote for senator Palpatine.... to have emergency powers.... see how that turned out....
 

clu

Active member
Oct 3, 2010
1,270
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Vancouver
I like your anology and I agree with 100%.The parties that want Proportional Representation are the FRINGE parties who CRAVE/WANT more power without having the electorate to deliver it to them.

You hold an election and each party makes the pitch on the hustings towards the electorate be it Civic/Provincial/Federal.The electorate casts it's collective choice and the ballots are counted and in each ward/seat/riding the candidate
with the most votes represents.....pretty fucking simple.Not so simple if you are on the outside and looking in.

I dont give a rats ass if the Green party took 10% of the popular vote in the last Federal election.....if in ALL ridings their candidates did not get enough votes to WIN then they should not be given seats like handing out participation
trophies.

There is nothing wrong with Canada's electoral process/system as it stands.....what is wrong is that far too many Canadians do not take the time to participate in it.Our voter turnout is less than 50% which is pretty pathetic.

Anytime I get into a personal conversation or even a group conversation about politics the first question I ask is "did you vote?" and if the answer is no I tell the person to STFU....if you are not part of the process
you dont get to bitch about it.

SR
You say there is nothing wrong with the current system because it gives an advantage to your preferred party. PR is not a "participation trophy" it is more representative of the actual mix of the diverse ideologies of Canadians, and what should democracy be if not representative of its constituents, even the ones you don't agree with?
 

nightswhisper

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Feb 20, 2016
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PR is not a "participation trophy" it is more representative of the actual mix of the diverse ideologies of Canadians, and what should democracy be if not representative of its constituents, even the ones you don't agree with?
This would be true if these two conditions are true:

1. The country in question is geographically homogenous
2. The population is either small or concentrated in a reasonably similar geographic area.

People in Vancouver are going to have a very different set of problems than people in Revelstoke or Kamloops.

FPTP ensures those in a smaller area with different ideals will elect an official that best represent the majority of the population there. In turn, those elected officials will voice local concerns more effectively, either by supporting or deterring changes that may affect them.

Assume that people in Revelstoke don't have the same needs as the people in Vancouver do. Therefore, no one there votes for the Green Party. However, the PR system will simply assume that the 10% who did vote for Green Party, who probably don't live anywhere CLOSE to Revelstoke, will now have enough power to decide on policies that may affect people in Revelstoke who have very different opinions and perceptions of how laws should be in their small town.

PR heavily favors population-dense areas in policy making but does not take into consideration the needs of individual areas and unique circumstances, which was the reason why PR wasn't instituted in US or in Canada in the first place. The electoral college may be flawed, but there's a reason for its flaws.
 

clu

Active member
Oct 3, 2010
1,270
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Vancouver
This would be true if these two conditions are true:

1. The country in question is geographically homogenous
2. The population is either small or concentrated in a reasonably similar geographic area.

People in Vancouver are going to have a very different set of problems than people in Revelstoke or Kamloops.

FPTP ensures those in a smaller area with different ideals will elect an official that best represent the majority of the population there. In turn, those elected officials will voice local concerns more effectively, either by supporting or deterring changes that may affect them.

Assume that people in Revelstoke don't have the same needs as the people in Vancouver do. Therefore, no one there votes for the Green Party. However, the PR system will simply assume that the 10% who did vote for Green Party, who probably don't live anywhere CLOSE to Revelstoke, will now have enough power to decide on policies that may affect people in Revelstoke who have very different opinions and perceptions of how laws should be in their small town.

PR heavily favors population-dense areas in policy making but does not take into consideration the needs of individual areas and unique circumstances, which was the reason why PR wasn't instituted in US or in Canada in the first place. The electoral college may be flawed, but there's a reason for its flaws.
I agree about the rural vs. urban dichotomy. That presumably is why the proposals (such as DMP) leave rural largely as-is. Seems like a reasonable response to address both sides of the coin.
 

Cock Throppled

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2003
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And what we have now, is people in rural areas, who don't agree with people in urban areas (or any other kind of divide that affects people), have to be governed in totality by the winner of an election that may have only got 40% of the vote. And that's not even 40% f the population - just the percentage of voters who bothered to participate.

For every scare tactic saying Nazis might get seats (which is virtually impossible in BC with a 5% threshold), there are fringe parties who might bring forth novel ideas that might never otherwise gain exposure.

I say give a new system a chance. It's an experiment over two election cycles, not something that's etched in stone to never be changed.
 

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
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"As it is I'm still committed to "first past the post" since a winning candidate is committed to working for all constituents in order to win in the next election."

You seem to be suggesting that MLAs care about their constituents now under FPTP. Have you heard of "party discipline" and do you know how it works? FPTP is a 300 year old system that only works of you are limited to two candidates.
 

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
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Yes. Where is BC-STV? I voted for STV in 2005, but I'm voting for FPTP this time around.
With the Rural-Urban version of PR, 60% of voters, those in the more densely populated parts of BC, would use BC-STV.

If you prefer FPTP then show a preference for Dual Member Proportional or Mixed Member Proportional. Both use FPTP to elect the district MLAs. Voting for FPTP over PR just shows that you want to do what andrew Wilkinson wants you to do to protect BC Liberal party power. While you are at it, ask Andrew why the party didn't use FPTP for his own election?
 

nightswhisper

Member
Feb 20, 2016
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And what we have now, is people in rural areas, who don't agree with people in urban areas (or any other kind of divide that affects people), have to be governed in totality by the winner of an election that may have only got 40% of the vote. And that's not even 40% f the population - just the percentage of voters who bothered to participate.

For every scare tactic saying Nazis might get seats (which is virtually impossible in BC with a 5% threshold), there are fringe parties who might bring forth novel ideas that might never otherwise gain exposure.
Not at all. PR is the scenario you describe; cities might vote in a party due to population density that are completely irrelevant to a rural community. A town of 2.5 million might have 10 percent voting for Green while a town of 500,000 not voting for Green at all. Since the big town has so much more franchise there will be seats that represent no interest from the smaller town. PR smears everyone in an area together and assumes they all want the same thing, which is great in a small geographical space or with a small population.

Under FPTP, this skew takes geopolitical differences into consideration. Rural areas are given an appropriate number of representatives that best represent the majority interest of their individual areas. It does not give densely populated cities with different ideas an advantage over smaller, sparse areas with a proportional vote.

Also, PR disproportionately powers small, fringe parties because of the need for coalitions. italy has changed 65 governments in 70 years because of this.

It doesn't matter how they try to fix PR with some odd variation. The same problem will exist in a large or small degree. Keep in mind, after a NDP or Green coalition gets into power, they are going to draw riding lines that will heavily favour their reelections
 

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
633
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Some of the NO PR side have said that the referendum ballot is too hard for BC voters to understand. Here is an explanation.

Do you want Ice cream (PR) or a kick in the balls (FPTP)

If most people choose Ice Cream (PR) do you want
- Vanilla (DMP)
- Strawberry (MMP)
- Chocolate (RUP)
 
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