Fidel Castro../..Trudeau

vanessa kelly

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I stayed in a Casa particulaire as well, not in a resort and spent most of my time in Havana though I met a black girlfriend who took me out to her home in the countryside. Cuban people are truly amazing and as you say very resourceful and have made the most out of a very difficult situation. I wish them all the best in these times ahead that will drastically change their lives, whether for the better or worse its hard to say. I guess I just noticed a different tone than you did. The police treated the tourists like myself like gold but the general Cuban public seemed to live in abject fear of them and seemed very careful how they phrased anything relating to their situations to keep it from sounding too negative. Just my personal observations.
I usually just spend the days in Havana nothing like 1950 transportation and travelling old school for a couple hours... You are right politics and drugs are two things a Cuban will not freely discuss, Foreigners are what keep Cuba running and their laws are something else ... you hit a bull with your car it could mean 10 years in prison get busted with a joint and its 7 years ... heck it has only been 6 years now that a local is allowed to eat where the tourists do ... I worry for the future of Cuba too both for the residents and the beauty :(
 

summerbreeze

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sad thing about these strong leaders who are required to remove corrupt regimes, they ultimately get corrupted by power and become a different version of what they fought against

just a domestic opportunist vs foreign

Mao
Stalin
Lenin
Marcos
Castro... on and on

as they say, the missionaries went to Hawaii to do good, and did very well indeed...

seems people oppress others simply because they can
 

Cock Throppled

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Oct 1, 2003
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I've spent a lot of time in Cuba. One week on the beach in Veradero 10 years ago was enough to tell me I'd never do that again, beacause I could be on a beach anywhere.

I spend time in Havana, and different towns with local families in Casa Particulaires. After they get to know you, people will discuss politics. Most people, even if they were hampered economically were ardent supporters of Fidel. Fear of the police, or secret police? Not unless someone was doing somethnig very illegal. Minor things like selling extra stuff, pilfering cigars or rum to sell to tourists, renting illegal rooms, and even prostitution, nobody seemed to have any fear of the police. I saw people openly smoking weed near patrolling police as much fear as people in Vancouver doing the same.

And to all those calling Trudeau names and saying what a POS he was for mildly praising Castro, did you foam at the mouth when this happened in January 2015?...Prime Minister Stephen Harper today issued the following statement on the death of King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz of Saudi Arabia:

“On behalf of all Canadians, Laureen and I offer our sincere condolences to the family of King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz and the people of Saudi Arabia.

“King Abdullah was recognized as a strong proponent of peace in the Middle East. He also undertook a range of important economic, social, education, health, and infrastructure initiatives in his country.

“I had the pleasure of meeting King Abdullah in Toronto when Canada hosted the G-20 and found him to be passionate about his country, development and the global economy.

“We join the people of Saudi Arabia in mourning his passing.”

- Stephen Harper
 

Jethro Bodine

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Feb 17, 2009
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Beverly Hills. In the Kitchen eatin' vittles.
Justifying what Trudeau said because Harper said nice things about another terrible person is not really a valid argument.

And as for Fidel being the lesser of 2 evils compared to Batista, if he was a true leader and interested in liberating the people of Cuba he would have done that by creating an open and free democracy.
Unfortunately like so many in various places all over the world, they present themselves as the saviour of the downtrodden masses and then end up becoming a dictator just as bad as the like the person before them.
 

Cock Throppled

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Justifying what Trudeau said because Harper said nice things about another terrible person is not really a valid argument.

And as for Fidel being the lesser of 2 evils compared to Batista, if he was a true leader and interested in liberating the people of Cuba he would have done that by creating an open and free democracy.
Unfortunately like so many in various places all over the world, they present themselves as the saviour of the downtrodden masses and then end up becoming a dictator just as bad as the like the person before them.
He was fighting against rabid Cuban/Americans in Miami, the mafia and the largest, most powerful country in the world, who were all trying to kill him and destroy Cuba's economy.

I'm guessing refoming the political system wasn't that high on the to-do list. Just like it isn't here, and we don't have democracy, either because not one MP ever votes what his constituents want over how he's told to vote if he/she ever wants to stay in politics or receive any perks.

Castro was a socialist (just like Bernie Sanders), not a Communist, until his hand was forced by the US and he had to align with Russia to receive their aid. Try finding some facts before believing what you read from US sources and the fanatics in Little Havana.
 

PuntMeister

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Jul 13, 2003
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One thing I would like to hear more intelligent conversation about is the fundamental differences between Socialism, Communism, and a Revolutionary government. I get that Bernie's a socialist mouth-foaming Robin Hood who wants to take money from the rich and re-distibute it to the poor. I get that China (and perhaps formerly USSR) are/were communisms where the state controlled resources and distributed the bounty to the people in their comune through government programs (controls). Of course the governments of communist countries inevitably experience corruption, elite officials and/or dictators, and an oppressive regime persists that perverts this well-intentioned but systematically flawed form of government. Maybe Singapore found a benevolent dictator, but there are still feelings of exces government controls despite a modern economy. So we westerners perport democracy as the true saviour and only viable political system we recognize. When I visited China, I thought I would experience communism and possibly an oppressive dictatorship that ruled with an iron fist. Guess I was a product of western media, because what I saw was that China is a rampant capitalism where people are encouraged to progress, just don't rock the boat and criticize the government. So I think China actually has a transitional government in place now. They saw what chaos happened in Russia where a huge nation tried to undertake political reform and economic reform at the same time. China is clear--economic reform first, which could create a stable platform for progressive political reforms. No way a perfect system and I think China is a freight train that now can't stop pumping coal into the furnace. But it is becoming the biggest economy on earth, so we will see if political, environmental, and human rights reforms emerge. We shall see. Back in Cuba, they don't have the economic engine China does. This is a huge point blocking political reform. The USA perpetuates a 50 year old Loser's Snit claiming idealogical righteousness. Hah! If they really wanted to help Cuba reform, the best approach would be to help it grow economically, and admit that the sanctions have done absolutely nothing to help reform Cuba. The USA has only hurt the Cuban people by its policies. Fidel Castro has always referred to the Cuban Government as a Revolutionary Government. I get it. The Revolution happened 50 years ago. So what the heck is a Revolutionary government if you have already overthrown the former evil dictator, put social programs in place for the people, created law and order (albeit rather harshly in the case of crooks, degenerates, and dissenters), and won the war? Well, it seems the war is still perpetuated against the Cuban government because it refuses to play by our rules of democracy. So we westerners perpetuate condemnation of the Cuban Government on moral principles, but I think we blindly do more harm than good by trying to replace a dictator instead of trading with their people. If the Cuban economy improves, a Revolutionary Government will no longer be needed because there will be no tyrant to fight, which was the foundation of the Revolution in the first place. So I am proud to be a Canadian when we thumb our nose at the juggernaught to the south, trade with Cuba, maintained positive political relationships, and open our hearts to the Cuban people even though their political climate is different than ours. I was proud to visit Cuba, enjoy it's unique culture, wonderful well-educated people, excellent coffee and other goods. I had the opportunity to speak with two reporters from Havana in a casual, behind the scenes discussion. Yup, they have to be careful not to criticize the government, but other than that, they could report on whatever they want. Hmmm, sounds a lot like China. The one wish they had was to see improved trade, but they were also proud Cubans, supported being an inpedendent state, and would not want to see Cuba revert to a puppet government for the sake of being politically acceptable.

Now then we democracies include capitalism as a fundamental engine of our economies, which leads to both incentive, national wealth generation, and greed. So much greed that western governments supported dictators like Batista, and the Cuban people were exploited. Fidel was a journalist, spoke out about it, was jailed, exciled, and was ready to fight and die to revolutionize Cuba. And he did. Our media clips focus heavily on the dissenters, but I found the majority of Cubans to feel Fidel was their liberator. Who knows if political reforms could have occurred, but as long as the economic wall remains, the fight is still on, the big bully is still trying to inflict its will on little old Cuba, so the revolution continues. I am hopeful that world leaders step up and support the cuban people. Ignore the government--you've already failed to influence it. Start trade and commerce as the path to reform. Get rid of the political rhetoric and discontinue the economic wall that inhibits progress.

Mr. Trump, tear down that wall!

-Punt.
 

Sporting

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Feb 7, 2010
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Good stuff. I recently watched Oliver Stone's 12 part documentary on Netflix, "The Untold History of the US" He's even drawn up lesson plans to take to the schools, so that people can teach and learn what America really wants and does. The Military Industrial Complex wants to be the only superpower controlling every place around the globe. A few more revolutionaries, or merely nationalist minded democratically elected leaders beyond BBB's list were assassinated or undermined like Diem in S. Vietnam, DRV in North Vietnam, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama, Guatemala, Indonesia, the list goes on and on and on, until you realize, this is deliberate and systematic, not coincidental.

There have been few liberal leaders in the US who genuinely believed in live and let live, giving other nations a chance. Prolly the last real one was Kennedy, and his own country took him down, I'm pretty sure. I think Elizabeth Warren has gumption to speak out, and being a lawyer, maybe can get people back on track, following the constitution and laws of the land, that were designed to prevent the lawless abuses that are going on.

I spoke to a lawyer in China recently. It's tough there. Under the surface are all the same human emotions and tendencies we see anywhere. Envy, selfishness, greed, laziness. Xi Ji Ping is the "father" whose job it is to keep the lid on things, carry the stick, and maintain a veneer of civilization. We're everywhere a hair breadth from anarchy.

I find it hard to believe Castro was so acquisitive, and tend to think these rumors of his wealth exaggerated. He had good reason to keep control of the country. If he liberalized, they would come for him, as he is an affront to the US shell game. Humans are barely governable, can you imagine the decisions that have to be made and implemented everywhere and always. I think we're doing pretty well as a species. It could be a lot worse.
 

summerbreeze

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Justifying what Trudeau said because Harper said nice things about another terrible person is not really a valid argument.

And as for Fidel being the lesser of 2 evils compared to Batista, if he was a true leader and interested in liberating the people of Cuba he would have done that by creating an open and free democracy.
Unfortunately like so many in various places all over the world, they present themselves as the saviour of the downtrodden masses and then end up becoming a dictator just as bad as the like the person before them.
its not what the politicians say about other politicians that is important, the bigger picture is that relationships between countries can help the people in those countries

having good relationships might be the start of helping impoverished nations slowly dig themselves out of the hole they are in as long as the wealth gets distributed

the tourist industry of Canadians going to cuba must have helped out and more of that can't hurt

if our PM says nice things about a dead dictator, and it helps with the country to country relationship, not sure if what the politician says has much weight, its just a friendly, polite gesture between friendly countries
 

rexxx

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Apr 15, 2009
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Justifying what Trudeau said because Harper said nice things about another terrible person is not really a valid argument.

And as for Fidel being the lesser of 2 evils compared to Batista, if he was a true leader and interested in liberating the people of Cuba he would have done that by creating an open and free democracy.
Unfortunately like so many in various places all over the world, they present themselves as the saviour of the downtrodden masses and then end up becoming a dictator just as bad as the like the person before them.
Since the vast majority of people condemning Trudeau about this are just Cons who already hated him and have never given a squirt of piss about the Cuban people I think it is a valid argument
 

masterblaster

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May 19, 2004
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He was fighting against rabid Cuban/Americans in Miami, the mafia and the largest, most powerful country in the world, who were all trying to kill him and destroy Cuba's economy.

I'm guessing refoming the political system wasn't that high on the to-do list. Just like it isn't here, and we don't have democracy, either because not one MP ever votes what his constituents want over how he's told to vote if he/she ever wants to stay in politics or receive any perks.

Castro was a socialist (just like Bernie Sanders), not a Communist, until his hand was forced by the US and he had to align with Russia to receive their aid. Try finding some facts before believing what you read from US sources and the fanatics in Little Havana.
Castro didn't have to worry about somebody else destroying Cuba's economy he managed to do that all by himself for 50 years. Anybody that thinks socialist central planning works for a country works please give me an example. Castro was responsible for bringing the US and the Soviets to the brink of nuclear war. Anybody that gives him a pass is a fool, of which our foppish pm is a prime example.
 

masterblaster

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May 19, 2004
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He was fighting against rabid Cuban/Americans in Miami, the mafia and the largest, most powerful country in the world, who were all trying to kill him and destroy Cuba's economy.

I'm guessing refoming the political system wasn't that high on the to-do list. Just like it isn't here, and we don't have democracy, either because not one MP ever votes what his constituents want over how he's told to vote if he/she ever wants to stay in politics or receive any perks.

Castro was a socialist (just like Bernie Sanders), not a Communist, until his hand was forced by the US and he had to align with Russia to receive their aid. Try finding some facts before believing what you read from US sources and the fanatics in Little Havana.
Castro didn't have to worry about somebody else destroying Cuba's economy he managed to do that all by himself for 50 years. Anybody that thinks socialist central planning works for a country please give me an example. Castro was responsible for bringing the US and the Soviets to the brink of nuclear war. Anybody that gives him a pass is a fool, of which our foppish pm is a prime example.
 

Cock Throppled

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Oct 1, 2003
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Right, because you're so knowledgeable about a country you know nothing about.

Get back to us after you've tried running a country while foiling assassination attempts virtually every month for 30 years, having the largest, most powerful country on earth embargo any investment or travel, relying on one industry - sugar cane, (until recently) - for income, subject to sometimes plummeting world prices; recovering from disastrous yearly hurricanes without any international help, having to reform the entire education, health and land system on a shoestring and make incredible progress on all those fronts.

You're showing an ignorant bias based on US foreign policy fairy tales. Go to Cuba and talk to Cubans rather than rely on propaganda.
 

masterblaster

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May 19, 2004
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Right, because you're so knowledgeable about a country you know nothing about.

Get back to us after you've tried running a country while foiling assassination attempts virtually every month for 30 years, having the largest, most powerful country on earth embargo any investment or travel, relying on one industry - sugar cane, (until recently) - for income, subject to sometimes plummeting world prices; recovering from disastrous yearly hurricanes without any international help, having to reform the entire education, health and land system on a shoestring and make incredible progress on all those fronts.

You're showing an ignorant bias based on US foreign policy fairy tales. Go to Cuba and talk to Cubans rather than rely on propaganda.
Can't believe anyone would actually defend a dictator who didn't allow free speech nor democratic elections for more than 50 years. Someone who had his political opponents executed by firing squads and thought it was a good idea to have nuclear missles installed in his country. Better get back to your communist manifesto.
 

apl16

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Jul 26, 2011
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Look left. Way left.
I'm enjoying this thread. It's good to know some people look beyond the useless propaganda from the so-called journalists/parrots of the powerful.
 

summerbreeze

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not as if the guy had a lot of options regarding opposing US and taking what aid he could get i.e. soviet

over time I suppose he degenerated from working class hero to thief, guess human nature took over from there
 

uncleg

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Jul 25, 2006
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Interesting interview on CH 21 by Chris Gailus to-day.
 

Amerix

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May 7, 2004
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My leftie friends on Facebook seem to think of Castro and Che as some kind of folk heroes. I swear we live in completely different realities. I'm no fan of how the US has treated Latin America but shit, Castro, seriously?
 
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