Events in the Middle East

[luckydog71]

We haven’t had a good political discussion in a while so let’s try this one.

We are seeing a number of events in the Middle East that one would have to conclude are interrelated. To suggest these are random events that just happened to occur at the same time would equate to someone winning the lottery twice on the same day.

The question is – Are these events positive or negative? I guess you could also conclude they are irrelevant. But if that is your conclusion I suggest you are irrelevant.

Afghanistan had an election.
Iraq had an election and is now starting to write its constitution
Israel is pulling out of Palestine
Lebanon looks like it may take back control of it’s own country from Syria
Saudi Arabia is talking about elections.
Libya is dismantling it’s weapons.


Will a shift to democracy in the Middle East mean a safer world for us all to live in? I think it will.

My spin on these events is they were lined up and ready to happen, but it was George W who pushed over the first dominos in Afghanistan and Iraq, and then the other dominos are starting to fall.

There are still troubling areas like Russia agreeing to sell uranium to Iran.
Iran still wanting to build WMD.
North Korea admitting they have WMD.

France and Germany siding with the US in condemning Iran. Can you beleive that?

Could anyone have predicted this as a result even 6 months ago?

 

[qwerty]

I share some of your optimism, to an extent, but I think it's going to get worse before it's all good.

Syria and Iran have formed a partnership, and Russia is growing cold to the west and selling 'nucular' material to Iran. Iran also currently has a much greater military force than Iraq had when the US invaded.

Also China is bolstering it's military, and as good as it looks for France and Germany to support the US on Iran(which is really a no-brainer) they oppose them when it comes to selling arms to China which will inevitably position themselves to challenge a declining US as a world power.

 

[luckydog71]

GREAT thread LD!!!

The World Tonight with Rob Breakenridge. Its on CHQR77

Thanks for the link hifi. I came across one article "Rice postpones visit to Canada over missile defense decision: U.S. official". This was not widely reported in the US media. In fact I have not seen it before.

If it is true, my opinion of Ms Rice has gone down. I saw her as a good possibility for 08. But this is not how to win support. She needs to build strong ties to Canada. Refusing to visit because of Canada's decision on the missile defense program is stupid. I can only hope the article was not correct.

 

[BC visitor]

If it is true, my opinion of Ms Rice has gone down. I saw her as a good possibility for 08. But this is not how to win support. She needs to build strong ties to Canada. Refusing to visit because of Canada's decision on the missile defense program is stupid. I can only hope the article was not correct.

I saw this too and I agree, but I'm sure there will be some spin doctoring going on soon.

 

[luckydog71]

I saw this too and I agree, but I'm sure there will be some spin doctoring going on soon.

Maybe, we are worried that too many things are starting to go right. So let's fuck it up over some minor issue and cause some dissension.

 

[qwerty]

If it's Hillary vs Rice I guess that would guarantee a woman President:Þ

And for her not to visit Canada because of our stand on missle defence is CHILDISH, we are a sovergn nation with the power to make our own choices. I support our governments decision to not support an expensive system that has failed all it's tests to date, and I would be willing to take the risk that no-one will launch a missle at Canada.

 

[ThighMan]

Israel is pulling out of Palestine

Israel would have pulled out of Palestine long ago if the US and other Western countries took the same position on the Isreali terrorism in the West Bank and Gaza as they do on terrorism in Europe or North America. The West Bank and Gaza are not now, nor have they ever been, Israeli territory. The West Bank was ceeded to Palestine by Jordon years ago, as was Gaza ceeded to Palestine by Egypt.

Also, we should remember that it was the Jewish settlers back in the late 40's and early 50's that terrorized the Palestinian people in Palestine prior to them taking over the majority of Palestine by force and changing the name to Israel. Of course Palestines neighbours and current "friends", namely Syria, Jordon and Egypt to advantage of this by gobbling up the remaining territory.

Iran still wanting to build WMD.

Isn't it strange that Iran has repeatedly stated that they are not trying to build nuclear (a word Mr. Bush is unable to pronounce) weapons. I suppose the so-called WMD in Iran are the same ones that Mr. Bush stated were in Iraq. If Mr. Bush wants to invade a country to aquire it's oil, why doesn't he have the balls to just say it. It is not like anyone could stop him anyway.

 

[luckydog71]

HiFi, I do not know the details, but it would not surprise me that Canada would not want to participate in any defense initiative. Who would attack Canada anyway?

So we can disagree with Canada's lack of participation, but to the refuse to visit is absolutely stupid. No one could thing this would cause Canada to reconsider.

There is a bigger issue here, Canada has made a conscious decision not to build any defenses. Canada is the second largest country in the world and it is not able to defend any of it's territory. Hmmm you have lots of natural resources (Oil, lumber, fish, water, uranium), you have huge tracks of land capable of growing enough food to feed a population many times your size, you have large natural water ways that make transportation easy to either coast, you have no national defense. But no one would ever try to take over your country.

 

[luckydog71]

Thighman, what you say maybe be true, but it is history. We need peace or at least peaceful coexistence in the Middle East today. It appears we are heading in the right direction.

Based on current rhetoric, it does not sound like the US will invade Iran any time soon. I think the worst that would happen is our satellites will watch what the Iranians are construction. If we don’t like what they are doing we will drop a couple of conventional bombs down on the nuclear installations.

BTW, maybe W can’t say the word nuclear, but when he gives the order to blow the shit out of the nucular installation, the air force will know what he means.

 

[qwerty]

But no one would ever try to take over your country.

Are you implying that you think someone would???

 

[ThighMan]

There is a bigger issue here, Canada has made a conscious decision not to build any defenses. Canada is the second largest country in the world and it is not able to defend any of it's territory. Hmmm you have lots of natural resources (Oil, lumber, fish, water, uranium), you have huge tracks of land capable of growing enough food to feed a population many times your size, you have large natural water ways that make transportation easy to either coast, you have no national defense. But no one would ever try to take over your country.

Since the only country that would ever have any reason to invade Canada is the US and that is NEVER going to happen, we do not need a defense force to protect the country.

However, the even bigger issue here is that Canada's spending on defense is so inadequate that we cannot even meet the commitments that are required to help Canadian at home during times of natural disasters. God help us if there was ever a major earthquake or sunami on the west coast. Also, the Prime Minister keeps making commitments to NATO and the UN for Peace Keeping (Making) roles and our forces are so streched that many of the troups are at the point of resigning since they are not getting the rotation time back in Canada that they are entitled to.

As a member of Canada's reserve forces, I find the current situation intollerable, but we all know that as long as the Liberals and their cronies are in power, the situation is not going to change.

 

[luckydog71]

qwerty, how many countries can you name that have not been invaded? The list would be very short. Unless you count the white man taking Canada from the natives, Canada would be one of only a few.

The fact that no one has ever attack Canada is giving you a false sense of security.

 

[ThighMan]

The fact that no one has ever attack Canada is giving you a false sense of security.

Check you history LD. The USA invaded Canada in 1812 and as we all know, that war was a stalemate with the border remaining exactly the same as it was prior to the US invation.

Also, Japanese U-boats launched torpedo attacks against Canadian ships of the West Coast during WWII.

 

[qwerty]

Actually i believe we were invaded in 1812. And after we had taken more than what was ours we kindly gave back what wasn't ours.

 

[luckydog71]

Since the only country that would ever have any reason to invade Canada is the US and that is NEVER going to happen, we do not need a defense force to protect the country.

Hmmm....so let's say Canada has very lax immigration policies. And let's say that terrorist set up camps in Canada like they did in Afghanistan. and let's say Canada was not able to do anything about it because they did not have any defenses.

and let's say terrorists were planning on using Canada as a staging ground for a major attack against the US.

Do you think the US would invade Canada before the terrorist struck? Or do you think the US would wait for the terrorists to enter the US before doing anything about it?

I think if you look at recent history, you will have your answer.

 

[ThighMan]

And after we had taken more than what was ours we kindly gave back what wasn't ours.

Nice way of putting it qwerty

 

[luckydog71]

Check you history LD. The USA invaded Canada in 1812 and as we all know, that war was a stalemate with the border remaining exactly the same as it was prior to the US invation.

That was 200 years ago.

Also, Japanese U-boats launched torpedo attacks against Canadian ships of the West Coast during WWII.

During WWII Canada had a military that it could be proud of and it was capable of defending itself and participating in freeing Europe at the same time. The Canadian Armed Forces of today, is only a shadow of what they were in 1940.

 

[ThighMan]

let's say that terrorist set up camps in Canada like they did in Afghanistan. and let's say Canada was not able to do anything about it because they did not have any defenses.

Let's not get rediculous now. There is no way that could happen, Canada is not a lawless country like Afghanistan was, and to some extent still is.

I would say that there is more likelyhood of that happening in the US than Canada. Just look at all the paramilitary militia groups in the US (Waco Texas for example). There are no such groups in Canada. Also, unlike the US, Canadians do not have a constitutional right to own guns, rifles, etc.

 

[ThighMan]

During WWII Canada had a military that it could be proud of and it was capable of defending itself and participating in freeing Europe at the same time. The Canadian Armed Forces of today, is only a shadow of what they were in 1940.

LD, I do not support the Canadian government on it's position with military spending. In fact I agree with you that it is pitifully inadequate. As I said before, I am a member of the reserve forces. However, the police forces are the organization that prevent terrorist activities from being established in Canada, not the defense forces.

Also, as I said earlier, our defense forces cannot even respond adequately in a time of natural disaster.

God help us if there was ever a major earthquake or sunami on the west coast.

 

[timec99]

Yup Canada is getting snubbed by Condi.....in some respects I don't blame the administration for this decision given Martin's cowardly way he managed the air defence decision.....but its not long term thinking to dis your closest neighbor, thats something that should be left to the federal liberals

cowardly I'd call it the right decision - Oh Canada!

BTW, luckydog - how's that current missile defense testing going?


Union of Concerned Scientists - Open Letter to Paul Martin

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