Enough is enough!!

[wolverine]

I'm not sure if all Muslim countries and Muslim subreligions are the same, in fact I'd reckon each have different levels of fanaticism and racism.

If you look at the Christian religions, you have everything from Roman Catholic to Protestant to Russian Orthodox to Pat Robertson to white supremacists to Hutterites. Catholicism in Brazil is stronger than what is displayed here in Canada, and I'm sure it wasn't the Vatican who came up with the notion of Carnival (a time of pre-Lent indulgence). The USA has had a history of varying Christian influences dating all way back to the Pilgrims (a religious sect). The different Christian subreligions and countries diverge greatly on social issues, women, devoutness and inclusiveness.

Why wouldn't Islam be any different? That's why I'm not prepared to condemn the whole based on extremist terrorist groups or what's happening in Indonesia.

 

[dr_pepper]

What good timing.....Bush and Blair both at low levels of popularity, both governments taking a lot of heat for the cluster fuck in Iraq....nothing like a good "foiled terrorist plot" to make all the dumb people out there afraid again. [/QUOTE


How f"ing stupid are you. Ya a conspiracy that involves the co-operation of a few hundred security and intelligence people. All of them willing to play along and keep quiet just so Blaire and Bush can stay in power. NOT! Not to mention they caught these guys red handed. Get your head out of your a$$ man.

 

[westwoody]

Get your head out of your a$$ man.

My feelings exactly.

 

[midnight]

Don't worry, if the Big Bad Terrorists ever come to try and kill you, just call me, I will come and protect you. And I will bring my super strong friends, Batman and Mighty Mouse to help the crusade. Then you will be safe and sound.

There is this nice little town just north of Bagdad you should visit. Be sure and write.

 

[SethBrundle]

my first post

I agree with Bartdude

… n the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes. ...

quote - Mein Kampf

 

[metoo113]

Peculiar Christians to be sure (mind you, to me all Christians are profoundly peculiar), but Christians nonetheless. A religion that professes a belief in Jesus Christ, as the Jehovah's Witnesses do, is a Christian religion. Much of the focus of this religion is on the second coming of Christ, actually.

Sorry, JustaGuy but Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. If you are a Christian and do the research into the beliefs of Witnesses it will soon become apparent that they are not Christians. Just because a religion or in this case a cult professes a belief in Jesus does not make them Christians.

 

[gravitas]

Wow, never thought I'd see the day

I may be an opinionated asshole but I'm also fair enough to play by the same rules as everyone else. While I personally may find some of the posters in this thread repugnant and their opinions pure garbage its their right to share their trash regardless of its baseless nature. That’s one of the wonderful things about living in a free and democratic society. Shame that if any of us were to go to Tehran or Riyadh and try the same thing we'd be hunted down and killed without due process or trial.

Get your head out of your a$$ man.

I'll never get over the ludicrousness of people who believe that 9/11 or other events like yesterdays arrests are a conspiracy orchestrated by the US government. I don't doubt that the US, UK, Israel, Iran even Canada conduct covert operations that never make the light of day, that’s simply the reality of the world we've live in long before the attacks of five years ago. That said those operations simply couldn't be conducted on such a large scale to involve hundreds or thousands of co-conspirators.

After 9/11 Bin Laden and other Al Qaeda leaders publicly acknowledged they were behind the planning and funding of the attacks. Wasn't that enough proof?

I agree with Bartdude

There's your first mistake.

Can anybody on this board honestly say that they have been terrorized by somebody in the Muslim community? With 25,000 members here on perb I would think that there must be at least one.

Are you seriously that obtuse to the world around you? Even if you weren’t directly impacted by the attacks on NYC, Washinton, London, Madrid, Bali you’ve been touched by Islamic terrorism if you’ve taken a flight, bought a tank of gas or left your parents basement in the past 5 years. They’ve fundamentally changed our way of life and regardless of your political or religious affiliation you’ve been terrorized.

 

[JustAGuy]

Sorry, JustaGuy but Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. If you are a Christian and do the research into the beliefs of Witnesses it will soon become apparent that they are not Christians. Just because a religion or in this case a cult professes a belief in Jesus does not make them Christians.

May I inquire about the derivation of the word "Christian" then? Does it entail a belief in a (supposed) individual named Jesus Christ? Yes, I thought so. It doesn't involve believing in the divinity of someone named Ed Smith or Jane Jones, does it?

I was raised a Christian but I renounced that silliness decades ago. However I don't think I have to be a Christian in order to "do the research". The Jehovah's Witnesses may not have much in common with the Christian denomination you belong to, metoo113, but the fact you and others think they're a cult doesn't change the fact that they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and therefore they are Christians, whether you like it or not.

 

[metoo113]

May I inquire about the derivation of the word "Christian" then? Does it entail a belief in a (supposed) individual named Jesus Christ? Yes, I thought so. It doesn't involve believing in the divinity of someone named Ed Smith or Jane Jones, does it?

I was raised a Christian but I renounced that silliness decades ago. However I don't think I have to be a Christian in order to "do the research". The Jehovah's Witnesses may not have much in common with the Christian denomination you belong to, metoo113, but the fact you and others think they're a cult doesn't change the fact that they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and therefore they are Christians, whether you like it or not.

The witnesses believe that the only way to salvation is through their organization not through Jesus. The Bible is clear in John 14:6 where Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me." There is no deed or word of our own that can make man acceptable to God. Salvation only comes by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Ephesians 2: 8, 9 says "For by grace you have been saved through faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works lest anyone should boast."

They also do not worship Jesus but only honor him as God's first creation. Which is wrong as Jesus was not created by God but is part of the Trinity.

The Jehovah's Witnesses may not have much in common with the Christian denomination you belong to, metoo113, but the fact you and others think they're a cult doesn't change the fact that they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and therefore they are Christians, whether you like it or not.

They infact deny the divinity of Christ. Maybe you should have done some research.

If you were raised a Christian then I'm sorry but you didn't get it or you would never say that JW's are Christians.

By the way Mormans are not Christians either.

 

[aznboi9]

Sorry to hijack...

By the way Mormans are not Christians either.

I would respectfully disagree with this statement, if you are using the "belief in divinity of Jesus" as your criteria for those who qualify as Christians.

One of my best friends is Mormon; he's even tried to subtly convert me to his church. From all the material that he's given me to read, told me and my own digging, they do believe in Jesus as the Messiah and the son of God, in the traditional Christian sense. What differentiates them from other denominations of Christianity is that they also teach, in addition to the Bible, from the book of Mormon. They hold this to be a record of Jesus and his administration to Israelites who had lived in North America before the time of European settlement.

 

[LonelyGhost]

The witnesses believe that the only way to salvation is through their organization not through Jesus.


They infact deny the divinity of Christ. Maybe you should have done some research.

If you were raised a Christian then I'm sorry but you didn't get it or you would never say that JW's are Christians.

By the way Mormans are not Christians either.

er, a simple search of their website found this:
'
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2004/7/15/article_01.htm


follow some of the links and there is lots about Jesus and his 'miracles'
and how the JW's believe in them!

 

[Rod Steel]

The basic differences between the various "Christian" religions is their adherence (or lack therof) to the teachings of Christ. Some religions accept certain doctrines, others don't. For example Catholics elevate the virgin Mary higher than most. Interpretation / translation of Christ's basic teachings doesn't make one church less Christian than another given that those teachings are based on hearsay anyways. A lot of needless killing has occured through history just over the various interpretations of the "word".

 

[metoo113]

I would respectfully disagree with this statement, if you are using the "belief in divinity of Jesus" as your criteria for those who qualify as Christians.

One of my best friends is Mormon; he's even tried to subtly convert me to his church. From all the material that he's given me to read, told me and my own digging, they do believe in Jesus as the Messiah and the son of God, in the traditional Christian sense. What differentiates them from other denominations of Christianity is that they also teach, in addition to the Bible, from the book of Mormon. They hold this to be a record of Jesus and his administration to Israelites who had lived in North America before the time of European settlement.

Mormons believe that there is more then one God, that they can also become Gods and that God was once a man. All these statements plus many others are against what the bible says.

 

[aznboi9]

Mormons believe that there is more then one God, that they can also become Gods and that God was once a man. All these statements plus many others are against what the bible says.

I have heard about them believing that they becoming gods when they go to heaven. The one about God once being a man is new to me; but I'll take your word for it.

Again, it depends on what criteria you require for a group to qualify as "Christian". Mine rests on whether the group believes in Jesus as the Messiah as that is the fundamental belief that is common to all Christians and is what mainly differentiates them from other religions. I would disagree that your post disqualifies them as being considered Christian because I'm sure all denominations will have beliefs that can be picked on by other denominations as being "wrong" in their interpretation of the Bible or "against" what they say it teaches. Heck, I even remember my grandfather saying how the reverence given to the Virgin Mary by Catholics was wrong as, in his view, it was idolatry. He was a very devout Protestant.

 

[metoo113]

I have heard about them believing that they becoming gods when they go to heaven. The one about God once being a man is new to me; but I'll take your word for it.

Again, it depends on what criteria you require for a group to qualify as "Christian". Mine rests on whether the group believes in Jesus as the Messiah as that is the fundamental belief that is common to all Christians and is what mainly differentiates them from other religions. I would disagree that your post disqualifies them as being considered Christian because I'm sure all denominations will have beliefs that can be picked on by other denominations as being "wrong" in their interpretation of the Bible or "against" what they say it teaches. Heck, I even remember my grandfather saying how the reverence given to the Virgin Mary by Catholics was wrong as, in his view, it was idolatry. He was a very devout Protestant.

All other recognized Christian religions recognize many truths about Jesus and the bible that Mormons and JW's do not. For one Mormons believe that Jesus and satan are brothers created by God. Christian religions believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, not a separate entity.

John 1:1 reads "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." John 1:14 goes onto say "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Mormons believe that God is flesh and blood and was once a man which is against what the Bible says.

Anyone can start a church and call it Jesus Christ the aviator, etc, but unless they follow the teachings of the bible then they are not Christians. What the Mormons and Jw's did what take the Bible and change it to their own beliefs.

 

[Randy Whorewald]

Anyone can start a church and call it Jesus Christ the aviator, etc, but unless they follow the teachings of the bible then they are not Christians. What the Mormons and Jw's did what take the Bible and change it to their own beliefs.

Who says the current version of the Bible is correct? The authors, Paul or any of the other followers certainly did not know they were writing the Bible as it (Bible) didn't exist at the time. It took several centuries for people to even reach any sort of consensus as to what was actually to be in it.

Current day Catholic Bibles do not contain all the passages which Protestant Bibles do. This fact has been the root cause of much of the trouble in Northern Ireland.

 

[aznboi9]

All other recognized Christian religions recognize many truths about Jesus and the bible that Mormons and JW's do not.

And all other recognized Christian religions recognize may "truths" about Jesus and the Bible that many recognized Christian religions do not. Didn’t Catholics believe in purgatory at one point? That would against the teaching of the Gospel that you’ve already quoted:

where Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me."

The majority of Christian religions keep Sunday as the Sabbath. That is against the teaching in the Bible as Seventh Day Adventists see it:

Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—blah, blah, blah...

We could probably forever go in circles debating this point with every denomination of Chrisianity denouncing every other denomination of Christianity. I think Rod Steel’s post points this out very well.

Anyone can start a church and call it Jesus Christ the aviator, etc, but unless they follow the teachings of the bible then they are not Christians. What the Mormons and Jw's did what take the Bible and change it to their own beliefs.

And this is no different from any other group that calls themselves “Christian”. Every group has their own spin on the scriptures and they all think that they're right and everyone else is wrong. Again, it depends on what your criteria of "Christian" is. Ours are evidently different from each other.

You obviously feel very strongly about this topic as it seems to be a touchy one for you. I don't know why, nor do I care to know why. But I think that this is going to have to be one of those “agree to disagree” thingies.

 

[metoo113]

Who says the current version of the Bible is correct? The authors, Paul or any of the other followers certainly did not know they were writing the Bible as it (Bible) didn't exist at the time. It took several centuries for people to even reach any sort of consensus as to what was actually to be in it.

Current day Catholic Bibles do not contain all the passages which Protestant Bibles do. This fact has been the root cause of much of the trouble in Northern Ireland.

That's a whole different debate.

You obviously feel very strongly about this topic as it seems to be a touchy one for you. I don't know why, nor do I care to know why. But I think that this is going to have to be one of those “agree to disagree” thingies.

The reson that I feel strongly about it is because under the guise of the Mormons or JW's many people are being led down the path to eternal death. Many people will not understand this or agree with me but this is how I feel.

 

[chilli]

This thread really takes the cake, to read half of the replies here I have to really wonder and you guys think George Bush is stupid?????

Sure he is, but half the posters to this thread are worse.

Some of you people have no clue, only half assed opinions, based only on your arrogance or ignorance. And it's people like you who vote in idiots like George Bush. Yes I know were Canadians and he's an American - but honestly the intelligence shown in half these replies is why people like Bush get elected.

I would quote some of the idiocy shown in this thread, but honestly some of you are beyond hope.

 

[chilli]

btw

the Mormons are seriously misguided... well intentioned - but very misguided.

"They hold this to be a record of Jesus and his administration to Israelites who had lived in North America before the time of European settlement."

The North American Indians are not the lost tribes of Isreal - it is an impossibility.

The Mormon Bible is written on the belief that a group of Jews, called the Lamanites, settled in and spread throughout NA.

Joseph Smith was a clever hoaxer who duped a lot of people.

1) There is a technological scientific truth which can prove beyond any doubt that NA Indians were not Jews or the lost tribes or descendants of Jews.

It is one of the greatest inventions of all time, the invention of the wheel. The NA Indians hauled their tents, hides and belongings on long poles, strapped to the sides of their horses. NA Indians did not have the knowledge, or understand the use of wheel.

Why would a whole group of people, stop using a technology that had such benefit? The answer is - it doenst make sense.

2) There is a requirement within the Jewish religion that all males be circumcised at birth. One of the reasons the Christian Church broke away from the Jews was because the Jews refused to drop the requirement that all males be circumcised.

It makes no sense that Jews would come to NA and drop the requirement for circumcision. It's a known fact that before the white man arrived, NA Indians were uncircumcised.

3) Mormons are the only people to my knowledge that hold the belief that Jews came to NA before Europians. There just isn't anything but "blind faith" to support Joseph Smith's assertions. No settlements have been found with their tools or instruments (Jews had musical instruments as well - which NA Indians didn't have/use (they used drums).

Any ways I'd comment on a lot of other stuff in this thread, but I have to go to work...

have fun kids. Maybe some of you should actually investigate things and learn to ask tough questions instead of taking things at "face value".