Cultural Appropriation

[VinVan]

Where did, in your opinion, the Canadian society fail the First Nations?

Thanks G eazy for your question. I sense you ask it with an open mind and I appreciate that.

I am not First Nations and I do not wish to appropriate their voice. But I did grow up in a First Nations community with many Indigenous friends who have shared their experiences with me. I can only give you my opinion . And I will preface this by saying that First Nations are not above the very human shortcomings of immoral behavior, in the same acknowledgement that not all white people are the devil.

European cultures had many technological advantages over African and North American cultures at the time of contact and Columbus (Gunpowder, empirical science, metallurgy). And over time these advantages, like compound interest, grew exponentially relative to Indigenous and Black slave cultures. This “superiority “ then is baked into the dominant culture (re:residential schools) and severs black and Indigenous culture from their history.

I don’t think anyone “failed” Indigenous North Americans. If First Nations has the same advantages over Europeans, they would have colonized Europe in the same way Europeans colonized North America.

So how we “failed” Indigenous peoples is very human, in that centuries ago Europeans saw black and brown as the other instead of themselves.

 

[VinVan]

You're assuming so much. With all due respect, you ask a question, I answer and you don't like the answer so you pivot away and ask a different question. You ask why First Nations people are incarcerated at high rates vis a vis other demographics and I give you the best answer I can give you. And now the question is WTF, how did they become poor??? I haven't the faintest idea why one household is poorer than another. I can assure you though, if you come across a First Nations household that is in a poorer income bracket, I don't believe it was due to small pox infected blankets from centuries ago or because of slavery. I was born into a dirt poor family, I can tell you why my folks were poor - they lacked education and when they immigrated to Canada, they lacked solid English language skills as well. Were they called names and racist slurs, they sure did experience that, as did I growing up. I simply choose not to use that particular lived experience as a crutch to complain/explain how society is not completely perfect and completely just and completely fair.

Sorry Applemac. If that is your response, then you have failed to truly understand what the whole BLM movement has been about over the past four weeks. Why does a black man have to die because he presumably passed a counterfeit $20 bill (did he produce it or did he get it as change for a $100 Bill and just didn’t know that it was counterfeit)? We’ll never know because he was executed by a cop that murdered him because he was black. Why did another black man die in Atlanta because he was sleeping in his car? Would taking away his keys not have achieved a better result than shooting him in his back? Or why do Black people get shot in their homes because a White person wanders into an apartment they mistake for their own and murder them?

I can appreciate that you came from a dirt poor family and pulled yourself up from your bootstraps, but can you in all honesty say that a black woman coming from a dirt poor family would not have had to overcome many more obstacles than you? If you answer is that your obstacles were greater than hers, then you are in denial of reality. That you cannot acknowledge the historical reality of the compound interest of privilege to me is a sign of your unwillingness to listen to any experiences outside of your own.

 

[appleomac]

Sorry Applemac. If that is your response, then you have failed to truly understand what the whole BLM movement has been about over the past four weeks. Why does a black man have to die because he presumably passed a counterfeit $20 bill (did he produce it or did he get it as change for a $100 Bill and just didn’t know that it was counterfeit)? We’ll never know because he was executed by a cop that murdered him because he was black. Why did another black man die in Atlanta because he was sleeping in his car? Would taking away his keys not have achieved a better result than shooting him in his back? Or why do Black people get shot in their homes because a White person wanders into an apartment they mistake for their own and murder them?

I can appreciate that you came from a dirt poor family and pulled yourself up from your bootstraps, but can you in all honesty say that a black woman coming from a dirt poor family would not have had to overcome many more obstacles than you? If you answer is that your obstacles were greater than hers, then you are in denial of reality. That you cannot acknowledge the historical reality of the compound interest of privilege to me is a sign of your unwillingness to listen to any experiences outside of your own.

And there you go pivoting again to try and garner some sort of moral high ground. As you said in one of your previous posts, this was about cultural appropriation and now it's about George Floyd and BLM??? No person (man or woman, black or brown or yellow or whatever) should ever have to be murdered by police overreacting to a $20 dispute. Nor should someone falling asleep in their car lead to being shot by police. And none of that has anything to do with cultural appropriation or why someone is poor or not.

And as it relates to what a black woman has gone through, I haven't the faintest clue as to what a black woman has gone through in their life. I have never cast any assumptions as to what someone has or has not experienced. Much like I would never cast any assumption about why someone chooses a particular hairstyle. Honestly, I don't think I'm the one with the issue of casting/making grand assumptions, you've got that on lock down mate!

 

[VinVan]

No problem.

I’m just trying to respond to the myriad of tangents that you have taken this thread off into “mate.” And I will accept your use of the term “mate” to invalidate my responses I this conversation.

I can sympathize with your reluctance to accept anything I’ve said. It’s ego - yours and mine. I will, however, say this, that anytime I have learned anything it has been preceded by a suspension of my own beliefs and to empathize with the person with whom I am in dialogue. How else can we arise from confirmation bias? I’m trying to convey to you experiences - which I am assuming based on this conversation that are outside of your experience - and yet you continue do deny the reality of that which I am trying to share. You can slice it a thousand ways, but the reality is that your ego is invested in your position and me in mine. Based upon my experience in dozens of similar conversations we may just have to agree to disagree.

 

[appleomac]

No problem.

I’m just trying to respond to the myriad of tangents that you have taken this thread off into “mate.” And I will accept your use of the term “mate” to invalidate my responses I this conversation.

I can sympathize with your reluctance to accept anything I’ve said. It’s ego - yours and mine. I will, however, say this, that anytime I have learned anything it has been preceded by a suspension of my own beliefs and to empathize with the person with whom I am in dialogue. How else can we arise from confirmation bias? I’m trying to convey to you experiences - which I am assuming based on this conversation that are outside of your experience - and yet you continue do deny the reality of that which I am trying to share. You can slice it a thousand ways, but the reality is that your ego is invested in your position and me in mine. Based upon my experience in dozens of similar conversations we may just have to agree to disagree.

LOL! You brought up questions about incarceration rates, Highway of Tears, infected blankets/slavery and BLM - and apparently I took this thread off into a "myriad of tangents"??? I can see now why you would conclude that infected blankets from centuries ago have caused certain groups in Canada to be impoverished in 2020. Apparently making assumptions and connecting dots that are not there are two of your specializations, so clearly you graduated with a double major

 

[VinVan]

LOL! You brought up questions about incarceration rates, Highway of Tears, infected blankets/slavery and BLM - and apparently I took this thread off into a "myriad of tangents"??? I can see now why you would conclude that infected blankets from centuries ago have caused certain groups in Canada to be impoverished in 2020. Apparently making assumptions and connecting dots that are not there are two of your specializations, so clearly you graduated with a double major

Okay, no probs.

Thanks for “listening” and for the “wink” and your failure to see how history affects the present. I’ve had some iteration of this conversation for the past 20 years with smart folks like yourself who will give no quarter. Folks who will not acknowledge that 300 years of oppression have some bearing on the circumstances of marginalized groups in society. Folks who fail to see the connection between residential schools and poverty (“them lazy injuns just don’t work hard enough.”). Folks who look at present incarceration rates (in both the US and Canada) and say it’s their fault because by some quirk of DNA that certain groups are just naturally 600% more likely to end up in jail than the rest of the population.

Cultural appropriation is not “the” reason for this suffering, But it certainly is a means by which - consciously or not - the dominant culture “appropriates” the voice of the marginalized and dulls its critique of the powers that be.

The attempts to dull the impact of the hashtag Black Lives Matter Is just the most recent example of such appropriation. By creating and adopting memes like All Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter, the powers that be are attempting to invalidate the real and legitimate concerns of cops murdering black people. Of course all lives matter. Of course blue lives matter. But when was the last time a white person was murdered for allegedly passing a fake $20 bill? Or killed for sleeping off some drinks? By obscuring the real issue, appropriation seeks to delegitimize real concerns.

in its most grotesque form, appropriation is a fascist like Trump claiming to be the champion of Juneteenth, or saying that he’s the best president in the history of the US for blacks because of some marginal gains that had nothing to do with him. The mechanism of appropriation is laid bare for those willing to pay attention.

 

[Cock Throppled]

But when was the last time a white person was murdered for allegedly passing a fake $20 bill? Or killed for sleeping off some drinks? By obscuring the real issue, appropriation seeks to delegitimize real concerns.

Talk about obscuring the issue. 200 black men a year are killed by police. Most while committing a crime, and usually while reisisting. How many white men have been killed while reesisting arrest? I'm betting the numbers would be the same. The Atlanta shooting was entirely due to him resisting, not for sleeping in his car. PS - The Atlanta PD is predominantly black.

 

[Shanghai]

There is a big difference between admiring an aspect of another culture and expressing that without a profit motive versus exploiting it for personal gain. Like songs played on the radio, each author gets something, lack of giving credit, and raising the profile of the source to their benefit as well is appropriation.

If an organization adopts an aboriginal theme for the sole financial reason of attracting tourists, and there is no interest or regard for the culture, say they sell mocassins and sage and keychains of teepees other stereotypical portrayals of native culture, that's another example of cultural appropriation.

I'm not sure what category that outfits such as the airport fall into when they feature large art installations of native culture that gives world travellers the impression BC has a huge highly respective native makeup, but are unaware the race is targeted by hundreds of years of systemic oppression and victimized by federal policy.

 

[g eazy]

Talk about obscuring the issue. 200 black men a year are killed by police. Most while committing a crime, and usually while reisisting. How many white men have been killed while reesisting arrest? I'm betting the numbers would be the same. The Atlanta shooting was entirely due to him resisting, not for sleeping in his car. PS - The Atlanta PD is predominantly black.

There are a billion things that I want to respond to in this thread but in the interest of time... it will only be this, and not much of a response at that:

Be careful using numbers without context. It's a common ploy by media and content creators these days to fuel outrage (clicks/ad revenue). Saying that "200 black men a year are killed by police" says very, very little about what the problem even is. Are too many black men being killed? Too few? Is there too much crime being committed? Why are they committing crime? Why are they resisting arrest? Of course I'm reaching with some of these prompts but the issues lie further than a simple number.

For the sake of conversation, if I were a betting man, I would say that fewer white men have been killed while resisting arrest, in totality for sure, but even on a per arrest basis.

 

[appleomac]

For the sake of conversation, if I were a betting man, I would say that fewer white men have been killed while resisting arrest, in totality for sure, but even on a per arrest basis.

The details aren't as granular as stating if it was due to resisting arrest, but it's a good snapshot for the last 5 years...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

 

[Johnnydarkdoe]

Okay, no probs.

Thanks for “listening” and for the “wink” and your failure to see how history affects the present. I’ve had some iteration of this conversation for the past 20 years with smart folks like yourself who will give no quarter. Folks who will not acknowledge that 300 years of oppression have some bearing on the circumstances of marginalized groups in society. Folks who fail to see the connection between residential schools and poverty (“them lazy injuns just don’t work hard enough.”). Folks who look at present incarceration rates (in both the US and Canada) and say it’s their fault because by some quirk of DNA that certain groups are just naturally 600% more likely to end up in jail than the rest of the population.

Cultural appropriation is not “the” reason for this suffering, But it certainly is a means by which - consciously or not - the dominant culture “appropriates” the voice of the marginalized and dulls its critique of the powers that be.

The attempts to dull the impact of the hashtag Black Lives Matter Is just the most recent example of such appropriation. By creating and adopting memes like All Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter, the powers that be are attempting to invalidate the real and legitimate concerns of cops murdering black people. Of course all lives matter. Of course blue lives matter. But when was the last time a white person was murdered for allegedly passing a fake $20 bill? Or killed for sleeping off some drinks? By obscuring the real issue, appropriation seeks to delegitimize real concerns.

in its most grotesque form, appropriation is a fascist like Trump claiming to be the champion of Juneteenth, or saying that he’s the best president in the history of the US for blacks because of some marginal gains that had nothing to do with him. The mechanism of appropriation is laid bare for those willing to pay attention.

Honestly, I think you are being too easy on the racism deniers. I agree with everything you’re saying, but the people arguing with you are just going to straw man any fact you bring up.

When the overwhelming majority of Black people tell white people that wearing dreadlocks is disrespectful and racist then it is disrespectful and racist. When the overwhelming majority of Indigenous people ask you not to wear head dresses because it is disrespectful and racist then it is disrespectful and racist. It is that simple. You can argue all you want, but it is not your place to tell a whole culture how they feel just because you disagree and when you do you are being racist. You may not think you are racist, but you are racist.

You can stop being racist easily by listening to people of colour and respecting them. It is the my house my rules philosophy. Their dreadlocks, their head dresses, their music, their dream catchers, their rules. When a person of colour explains that you are appropriating an important aspect of their culture this is an opportunity for you to prove you are not racist by apologizing, acknowledging them and never doing that again.

 

[ExpCharlee]

Wow what a shit show lol
Can I just say right now that anyone who thinks cultural appropriation is bullshit or not real, thinks reverse racism is real, or thinks the Irish were slaves (I haven’t read every word but I bet it’s in here somewhere) etc etc whatever other whiny bullshit is not welcome to book me unless it’s to pay me to debate you.
So many racist pricks, thanks for showing yourselves

 

[Miss Hunter]

There are people out there who happily welcome others into their culture to share with them and teach them. Do their hair, give them dreamcatchers, teach them how to smudge, etc.

^^this used to be the norm, at least it seemed to be from my life experience.

 

[Miss Hunter]

There is a big difference between admiring an aspect of another culture and expressing that without a profit motive versus exploiting it for personal gain. Like songs played on the radio, each author gets something, lack of giving credit, and raising the profile of the source to their benefit as well is appropriation.

If an organization adopts an aboriginal theme for the sole financial reason of attracting tourists, and there is no interest or regard for the culture, say they sell mocassins and sage and keychains of teepees other stereotypical portrayals of native culture, that's another example of cultural appropriation.

I'm not sure what category that outfits such as the airport fall into when they feature large art installations of native culture that gives world travellers the impression BC has a huge highly respective native makeup, but are unaware the race is targeted by hundreds of years of systemic oppression and victimized by federal policy.

I agree, exploitation for profit and personal gain is wrong.

 

[appleomac]

It is the my house my rules philosophy. Their dreadlocks, their head dresses, their music, their dream catchers, their rules. When a person of colour explains that you are appropriating an important aspect of their culture this is an opportunity for you to prove you are not racist by apologizing, acknowledging them and never doing that again.

But culture isn't like a house - I don't own my culture, my culture is simply what my culture is. My culture was not born as it is today, it is not and will never be static - it is dynamic and changes as it has throughout it's entire existence. It will continue to develop/evolve over time. Like people, cultures are inevitably influenced by it's surroundings - dare I state the obvious - both people and culture can and are surrounded by other cultures. And thusly, the natural development and evolution of my culture (of most if not all cultures throughout human history) has and will continue to be influenced by other cultures. I play golf, therefore some may call me a golfer - I am not foolish enough to claim that I own golf or that I am somehow the self appointed gatekeeper as to what golf is, what golf should look like and who may partake/enjoy various aspects of golf. And because no one can own the game of golf, no one is obligated to seek permission to play golf. If some aspect of ones own culture is important to them, that's awesome - they should embrace it, celebrate it, share it if they so choose - but you don't own it. Culture has never been owned by any person or group of people.

 

[VinVan]

But culture isn't like a house - I don't own my culture, my culture is simply what my culture is. My culture was not born as it is today, it is not and will never be static - it is dynamic and changes as it has throughout it's entire existence. It will continue to develop/evolve over time. Like people, cultures are inevitably influenced by it's surroundings - dare I state the obvious - both people and culture can and are surrounded by other cultures. And thusly, the natural development and evolution of my culture (of most if not all cultures throughout human history) has and will continue to be influenced by other cultures. I play golf, therefore some may call me a golfer - I am not foolish enough to claim that I own golf or that I am somehow the self appointed gatekeeper as to what golf is, what golf should look like and who may partake/enjoy various aspects of golf. And because no one can own the game of golf, no one is obligated to seek permission to play golf. If some aspect of ones own culture is important to them, that's awesome - they should embrace it, celebrate it, share it if they so choose - but you don't own it. Culture has never been owned by any person or group of people.

I appreciate the distinction you’re trying to make AppleMac, and here is where your golf analogy breaks down. You were not born into golf. And there is no systematic intolerance toward golfers (unless you include fashion). If you wish to stop playing golf, no probs, you can hang up the clubs and walk away. If you’re black or indigenous you just can’t walk away from 300 years of oppression.

Let’s just carry on with your golf analogy. Let’s say all golfers were required to wear golf clothing at all times so that they could be easily identified; that they would be subject to sport profiling and routinely pulled over in their carts to make sure they weren’t breaking the law; and say your shoelace was untied the cops would yank you out of your vehicle; and if you protested in the slightest you would be cuffed immediately because we all know that golfers are more aggressive than others; then with great frequency golfers ended up dead because they must have been hiding something if they were resisting; and eventually because golfers acted in such an irrational matter they were segregated and refused loans because they were deemed poor risks and eventually stripped of their right to vote; for the next 250 years they would be denied education and health care except by their own means. And if golfers had their own dance that they developed and learned to pray in a special way I would say “cool” and not pretend to try and be a golfer.

If a culture has been subject to marginalization for hundreds of years and have a series of cultural practices that are uniquely theirs, then I believe someone who is open minded would be respectful of that. It’s not against the law to appropriate another culture; it’s just respectful to listen to someone who has grown up in that culture with all the negatives and positives of that experience.

 

[appleomac]

I appreciate the distinction you’re trying to make AppleMac, and here is where your golf analogy breaks down. You were not born into golf. And there is no systematic intolerance toward golfers (unless you include fashion). If you wish to stop playing golf, no probs, you can hang up the clubs and walk away. If you’re black or indigenous you just can’t walk away from 300 years of oppression.

Let’s just carry on with your golf analogy. Let’s say all golfers were required to wear golf clothing at all times so that they could be easily identified; that they would be subject to sport profiling and routinely pulled over in their carts to make sure they weren’t breaking the law; and say your shoelace was untied the cops would yank you out of your vehicle; and if you protested in the slightest you would be cuffed immediately because we all know that golfers are more aggressive than others; then with great frequency golfers ended up dead because they must have been hiding something if they were resisting; and eventually because golfers acted in such an irrational matter they were segregated and refused loans because they were deemed poor risks and eventually stripped of their right to vote; for the next 250 years they would be denied education and health care except by their own means. And if golfers had their own dance that they developed and learned to pray in a special way I would say “cool” and not pretend to try and be a golfer.

If a culture has been subject to marginalization for hundreds of years and have a series of cultural practices that are uniquely theirs, then I believe someone who is open minded would be respectful of that. It’s not against the law to appropriate another culture; it’s just respectful to listen to someone who has grown up in that culture with all the negatives and positives of that experience.

You are conflating personal experience and culture. What you experience is what you experience, that is not culture - that is merely what you experience. Culture is not defined by what a member of that culture experiences. I am a certain ethnicity and of a certain culture. My experience as a Canadian living (at the moment) in Canada being of a certain ethnicity/culture does not change my culture - it does not add or subtract from my culture. Moreover, there are others that have the same ethnicity and culture as I do that live in let's say Spain - our culture is the same, our ethnicity is the same but our experiences are not.

Every definition of culture speaks to customs, achievements, etc. ,etc. ,etc. Never as far as I can remember (granted it's been decades since I've taken sociology in Uni) was culture merely a collection of experiences by each and every member of said culture. I've been racially profiled (I'm certain of it as the day is long) - that's my personal experience, that says nothing about my culture. Whether that means I was marginalized (I really don't care) - even if that means I was at that moment marginalized, that means I was marginalized: doesn't mean my culture was marginalized. My culture would not have changed one bit whether that happened or not.

I will grant you this, it is certainly the case that many in a culture face the same marginalization over and over and over again. Those experiences can manifest itself in many ways in the aggrieved person. If one way that the experience manifests itself is let's say a new type of art, and that art is adopted/popularized by said person's culture and ultimately becomes synonymous with that culture, it is that new art that becomes part of the culture. The experience that inspired the art - that remains with the artist. Now, if the art becomes widely hailed because of some new technique of colours or whatever and other artists outside of said culture learn the process and produce their own art - so be it. If I were a member of that culture I would not be offended. If the original artist was somehow offended because others have copied his/her technique, I could appreciate their grievance - albeit I probably would not agree that something was stolen from them personally nor our culture.

Lastly, the golf analogy was to highlight the concept of ownership not what one person is born into or experiences.

 

[PuntMeister]

Frankly I bristle when minorities, genders, LGBTQ’s, etc. denegrate themselves to appear cool or popular.

Listened to a hiphop station recently and heard way too many tracks by black artists using the N word. If not cool in public, why OK in your song? Seemed disrespectful. I wouldn’t call my kids or peops anything I didn’t want anyone else to call them. Lead by example. Why is this OK and not called out or banned?

I have seen strong capable women in business working hard to earn leadership positions and being embraced and rewarded by the male skewed hierarchy, only to be criticised, ostricized, and taken down by jealous petty women who don’t appreciate them and feel threatened by their talent. You want to see diversity in higher places, maybe embrace your mavericks rather than tearing them down?

And then there is the gay guy at work who seems to think it’s OK to call his partner a faggot. Seriously? What have we been fightining for and holding joyous parades about all this years if you are going to throw it in the trash can when it suits you?

Respect is as Respect Does. Sometimes the villains within and looking back in the mirror are a good place to start.

 

[80watts]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada
Its a good read.
So far in this thread areas widely covered were: Mocking, Political issue, Ignorance issue, Borrowing, UnCled's lifestyle of yoga and karaoke, Ms Hunter's opinion on divisions, Assimulation, Multiculturalism, Appropriation, Highway of Tears, First Nation incarceration rates, Sematics, BLM, Infected blankets, Where First Nations Failed, Reverse Racism, Respect.
So to start with the slavery issue in Canada, I think that it should be part of the courses in social history taught in high school or even elementary school.
BLM was started in 2013, it didn't start 7 weeks ago because of the murder of a man in police custody.
Where First Nations went wrong, the Indigenous people were put on reservations with nothing to do(Actually it really looks like they were put there to kill them off- due to food, cold winters and infected blankets). They were isolated. Look at the past 3 months (Covid-19) when people were sent to their homes with nothing to do. Their lack of motivation goes down, their sense of self esteem goes down. They had internet and social media. For many years on reservations the answear was alcohol. Now for the last 40 years drugs.
As for the Highway of Tears. 2 Thoughts. One is intercontinental human trafficking (slavery). The other is murder and 90% of murders are committed by people the victim knows. Due to the isolation of the communities and the distrust of the police, not much investigation was happening due to the fact the people did not trust the police or they were scared because of their own people.
As to why First Nation people are poor, mostly due to lack of education. Most first nations across the country don't force their kids to go to school. Most aboriginals teenagers don't get high school diplomas, so are limited to what type of work they can get. A good % of these kids are living with relatives or in foster homes. They grow up with no family or education. The Federal government pays for an university degree for them, but they have to have the high school education. The biggest cause is alcohol and drug abuse in aboriginal communities, which has the effect of young aboriginals to turn to the gang factors in their communities for sense of well being... oh.. the gangs also sell the drugs to make money.... Alot of reservations are based on the "chief" of the tribe/reservation who wants to control the people of the tribe/reservation. In other words no dissent among the tribe. Ask any Indigenous persons and they are likely to say "White men are the cause of their problems". Tribe vs. White man. Tribe chief gets paid 1,000,000.00 and has overseas bank account (in tax haven), hey anybody wants to keep that sweet deal.... Meanwhile the reservation does not have good clean drinking water, the houses are in shambles etc.
Other reservations have outlawed alcohol and drugs and force the kids to go to school. These reservations have done alot better then the majority of reservations. Everything is there for the individual member to see and inspect.

As for reverse racism....
Reverse racism is real. Anyone that can not see it, should not be calling the kettle black... (Twisted isn't it?)

As for PM he is right about the respect aspect. Also about looking in the mirror.

There was a medieval theologian (catholic church) who said something about everyday making a new man inside yourself. Overcoming that "original sin" part of yourself. But we are all only human and have to try our best everyday to overcome obstacles to make the world a better place.

Everyday.

 

[Cock Throppled]

Why do the left-wing, liberal and most woke people who do the most racist things get a free pass? Trudeau, Joyce Behar, Jimmy Kimmel, Ben Stiller, politicians who have all done black-face, mocking language and dress - all forgiven and forgotten. Any conservative, or Republican politician or personality who says or does anything that can remotely be considered questionable, gets hounded out of their job, and persecuted.

If offense only gets called out because of the political beliefs of who's doing it, I'm highly sceptical it's really about offense, and more about collecting pelts.