Canada RETHINK

[80watts]

Our world in Canada works on the global economy. Which is dominated by China and the US.

This Covid outbreak, has to be payed for. The Government is spending way too much. But it has too.

The thing I found about life, is you have to make it simpler. Using the KISS principle.

To get money the government has alot (in fact tons of money making scams). Income tax, well if we pay income tax, why are there so many other taxes associated with this one simple tax.... Divendend, Capital gains and an myraid of other taxes added on to you after the governments have already taken your tax money up front. Dont' forget land taxes.

Have to think what is good for all Canadians, not just wealthy people or corporations.

Land use.
Monopolies based on patent laws.
Gas taxes- which should be for road upkeep, not general revenue.
Build up of pension funds.
Energy creation (solar, wind, hydro, and nuclear).
Heavy Industry in Canada. eg metal making etc.
Gas Refinement of oil sand. (as it looks like the new pipeline to Texas is getting cancelled). An excellent opportunity for Albertans to make their own gas for a change.
Transportation in Canada for resources, (metals, energy, logging etc).
Create sollutions for pollution (waste mangement- usually only taking the easy money making things as opposed to contaminated garbage and waste products).

The problem is everything is not connected. Companies doing their own thing, but not working in concert with other companies. The problem is competing departments within all government (provincial and federal) who compete with each other etc.
Not enough enforcement of existing Acts and Laws, that companies are breaking or just go to court for years. This has to do with lack of people to enforce those laws. Which turns out to be make work for the lawyers (who hold things up in court for years). Its the lack of government employees to do the jobs andor others ignoring their responsilbilities, Mostly due to they would be working for those same companies at a later time...... ethics....
Don't get me started on companies that ignore the rules and pollute. This includes land and water and air. Yes air. Companies are better now, but there is still alot of toxic waste being produced every day in Canada. (which reminds me if you buy land, get it tested for certain things, leads and heavy metals. look at the vegetation on the land etc.)

After all the goals should be set out by Canadians to make a better Canada. Get Canadian jobs.

 

[Lo-ki]

After all the goals should be set out by Canadians to make a better Canada. Get Canadian jobs.

Not on Trudeau’s agenda.......

 

[licks2nite]

Federal debt myth won't be paid back. Doesn't need to be paid back. Federal government owns the Bank that prints the money. Climate mitigation a myth. Carbon from South Asia negates anything Western countries do. People equals carbon. Forget Keystone and build refineries, use existing finished product pipelines to the States. Built one to eastern/central Canada. Pack refined oil in 2-litre plastic jugs for the world to buy. Balance Canadian trade deficits. Good paying careers and jobs in industrial production and industrial construction.

 

[masterpoonhunter]

To the OP and thank you for bringing up a thoughtful topic - I believe that the solution you have just described is a truly socialist regime if not bordering on communist.

I am not a political scientist, nor do I subscribe to either as a political system, but as I have moved along time's arrow, I have learned a lot about political systems and the two words, social and commune are at the core of the two ideologies and at the heart of the original post.

I think though, there is another solution. Maybe as simple as can be. Do not allow the tax evasion. Fair taxation, ie a flat tax, so that you and I will pay less tax but corporations will pay more. Tax the churches. Go back to the 50-70's and put a tax rate of well above 50% for the gadzillionaires. How the fuck can anyone spend $1B, for that matter even at a 5% investment return how can you spend that much. I am not one to say that folks in that pay grade don't have the right to that income but REALLY? The system is jigged wrong, those ultra high pay rates should not be there.

On the whole topic of how good Canada is at exporting our wealth whether raw product or jobs, we really are good at it which sucks the big onion. If there is to be a pipeline, it should be east west. Fuck Quebec not allowing this. If this is a country, mandate the fucking thing. Stop any reliance on foreign oil. Build the refineries and the production facilities to produce the material that can be made from bitumen. Become an Ikea. Fuck we have as much good wood as anyone. And for fucks sake we have the ability to make our own goddamn vaccine - just no one in the federal system had the balls to back it.

Fuck the fucking fuckers I say.

 

[happycanuck99]

Federal debt myth won't be paid back. Doesn't need to be paid back. Federal government owns the Bank that prints the money. Climate mitigation a myth. Carbon from South Asia negates anything Western countries do. People equals carbon. Forget Keystone and build refineries, use existing finished product pipelines to the States. Built one to eastern/central Canada. Pack refined oil in 2-litre plastic jugs for the world to buy. Balance Canadian trade deficits. Good paying careers and jobs in industrial production and industrial construction.

I think you make a number of good points, but I don't think it's quite that simple. I think economists would tell you that not paying back the debt and simply printing more money will cause us much trouble on the international stage (unless everyone is doing it). I also agree that Canada's contribution to the carbon issue is probably nearing insignificance, but I think it's good to try to help with the problem to the extent that it makes sense. I like the idea of refineries, an west-east pipeline, balanced trade deficits, and good paying jobs, too, but again, not so easy.

To the OP and thank you for bringing up a thoughtful topic - I believe that the solution you have just described is a truly socialist regime if not bordering on communist.
...
Fuck the fucking fuckers I say.

I really couldn't decide whether to respond with a "like", since I liked so many of your thoughts, or a "laugh". The last line tipped the scales.

 

[SeekSteadyRegSP]

Fair taxation, ie a flat tax, so that you and I will pay less tax but corporations will pay more. Tax the churches. Go back to the 50-70's and put a tax rate of well above 50% for the gadzillionaires. How the fuck can anyone spend $1B, for that matter even at a 5% investment return how can you spend that much. I am not one to say that folks in that pay grade don't have the right to that income but REALLY? The system is jigged wrong, those ultra high pay rates should not be there.

LOL - that's absolutely clueless.

Sure, lets completely discourage innovation and invention.


Where the hell would we BE if Covid vaccines couldn't be invented and distributed relatively quickly because foolish people dis-incentivized the innovators?

 

[happycanuck99]

LOL - that's absolutely clueless.

Sure, lets completely discourage innovation and invention.


Where the hell would we BE if Covid vaccines couldn't be invented and distributed relatively quickly because foolish people dis-incentivized the innovators?

I'll start by disapproving of the "clueless" crack. Why not have an intelligent, civil conversation without the mud slinging?

Anyway, I've often wrestled with this, and quite honestly I don't have a good answer. Whereas I agree that we don't want to "dis-incentivize the innovators", I also wonder: would we really? Yes, I know greed is a powerful motivator, but I also think that people who are inclined to innovate will do so regardless, and I think most will likely do so even if the "reward" is only $1gazillion rather than $2gazillion.

I don't think there's a simple answer, but I do feel there is far too much disparity in North America between the rich and the poor. In fact, I believe history teaches that if/when the disparity gets too large, a revolution or some other cataclysmic change comes along as a correction.

Just my 2¢ worth - take it for what it's worth.

 

[masterpoonhunter]

And I'm a Tory too
And an entrepreneur / small business owner.

Capitalization of everything has gone past the tipping point IMO. And wealth disparity is as serious an issue as can be in the western world.
So you look at tax breaks. You give the corporations the 'incentive' to do their thing in your jurisdiction. They hire folks who get jobs and those folks pay tax and contribute to the economy. Meanwhile the corporations make $$s and pay their executive layer bonuses etc in many cases that are obscene by any moral standard. Unless of course your morals say go for it, trickle down is the game baby. But by god that CEO gets another house, another boat, another private jet and yet another banging trophy mistress!! And the employees get mortgages, used cars, a modest life and so on. Hey, that's the game right. Fair is fair. The old golden rule - he who has the gold makes the rule. Meanwhile how much wealth is removed from the infrastructure that the corporation used to make the $$s.

Have a look at some history of taxation vs innovation vs nation building. In all cases, countries become stronger when they tax appropriately. I say at this point the western world is NOT taxing fairly and if it were, innovation would keep on rolling just as it has in the past.

I am not just talking Canada here - the US is worse when it comes to wealth disparity where (shooting from the hip here) more than 50% of the yearly wealth is in the hands of <1% of the population.

At any rate this topic will not reach a resolution on a pooning forum.
Cheers all.

 

[happycanuck99]

And an entrepreneur / small business owner.

Hey - me too! I hope, though, that you're doing better than I am. I'm 0 for 4 so far.

And wealth disparity is as serious an issue as can be in the western world.

Yep, I strongly agree. However, I think it's even worse in North America. There are European countries that have a much smaller disparity (more taxation and more "socialism") that are doing very well (and continuing to "innovate"). Pragmatically speaking, it seems we need to find a middle ground: too much socialism and you have the USSR (collapsed), too little and you have the US (people dying for lack of health care). I think Canada is doing very well, and yet I think there are some European countries doing even better.

At any rate this topic will not reach a resolution on a pooning forum.

LOL!!! Thanks - that's the best laugh I've had all day!!!

 

[licks2nite]

Alberta oil executive on talk radio last night. Says the industry isn't hurting and expecting nice profit going forward. Jason Kenney story just the opposite. IMO, federal government must invest in necessary infrastructure. Recover lost manufacturing capacity. Return Canadians to skilled trades. Get the most value from Canadian natural resources. Produce and sell abroad, reliable value added products. Research, development, manufacturing, assembly, all in a timely manner.

 

[newbie123]

I'm curious, how would you classify taxing fairly? In Canada, the top 1% make about 10% of the money and pay about 21% of taxes. The top 5% make about 23% of the income and pay 41% of taxes. The top 10% make 34% of the income and pay 54% of the taxes. The bottom 50% only pay about 5% of taxes despite making 18% of income. Interestingly, the median taxes paid of the bottom 50% is $0 which means over 1/4 of taxpayers don't pay a single dollar of taxes (Source: Stats Canada (table 11-10-0055-01))

I think the issue is that there is too much freeloading and that it's problematic when 10% of the population is supporting over half of the tax revenues. At some point, people need to be accountable for themselves and not rely on the government and those who are more successful to look after them. Instead of focusing on actual needs and how to meet those, there is too much focus on materialistic goods and keeping up with the Joneses mentality. It would be very easy for most people to shave thousands of dollars from their annual expenses (smaller house, less expensive car, less frequent travel, less eating out, coffee at home, etc). There is too much entitlement today, especially with the younger generations (disclosure: I'm a millennial) and an inability to make sacrifices. I have lots of friends, acquaintances, and colleagues who spend 2-4x what I spend in a year despite making 40-50% of what I make. By saving money and investing, I've reached financial independence at 35 where my annual passive income exceeds my annual cash outflows. While that may be an anomaly, it's easy to save and grow one's net worth with a little bit of discipline. For the government to come in and further tax those who do the right thing seems like theft. In most provinces, marginal tax rates already exceed 50% and I question the fairness when the government gets more of an individual's earnings than the person actually putting in the time and effort.

And I'm a Tory too
And an entrepreneur / small business owner.

Capitalization of everything has gone past the tipping point IMO. And wealth disparity is as serious an issue as can be in the western world.
So you look at tax breaks. You give the corporations the 'incentive' to do their thing in your jurisdiction. They hire folks who get jobs and those folks pay tax and contribute to the economy. Meanwhile the corporations make $$s and pay their executive layer bonuses etc in many cases that are obscene by any moral standard. Unless of course your morals say go for it, trickle down is the game baby. But by god that CEO gets another house, another boat, another private jet and yet another banging trophy mistress!! And the employees get mortgages, used cars, a modest life and so on. Hey, that's the game right. Fair is fair. The old golden rule - he who has the gold makes the rule. Meanwhile how much wealth is removed from the infrastructure that the corporation used to make the $$s.

Have a look at some history of taxation vs innovation vs nation building. In all cases, countries become stronger when they tax appropriately. I say at this point the western world is NOT taxing fairly and if it were, innovation would keep on rolling just as it has in the past.

I am not just talking Canada here - the US is worse when it comes to wealth disparity where (shooting from the hip here) more than 50% of the yearly wealth is in the hands of <1% of the population.

At any rate this topic will not reach a resolution on a pooning forum.
Cheers all.

 

[johnnydepth]

I'm curious, how would you classify taxing fairly? In Canada, the top 1% make about 10% of the money and pay about 21% of taxes. The top 5% make about 23% of the income and pay 41% of taxes. The top 10% make 34% of the income and pay 54% of the taxes. The bottom 50% only pay about 5% of taxes despite making 18% of income. Interestingly, the median taxes paid of the bottom 50% is $0 which means over 1/4 of taxpayers don't pay a single dollar of taxes (Source: Stats Canada (table 11-10-0055-01))

I think the issue is that there is too much freeloading and that it's problematic when 10% of the population is supporting over half of the tax revenues. At some point, people need to be accountable for themselves and not rely on the government and those who are more successful to look after them. Instead of focusing on actual needs and how to meet those, there is too much focus on materialistic goods and keeping up with the Joneses mentality. It would be very easy for most people to shave thousands of dollars from their annual expenses (smaller house, less expensive car, less frequent travel, less eating out, coffee at home, etc). There is too much entitlement today, especially with the younger generations (disclosure: I'm a millennial) and an inability to make sacrifices. I have lots of friends, acquaintances, and colleagues who spend 2-4x what I spend in a year despite making 40-50% of what I make. By saving money and investing, I've reached financial independence at 35 where my annual passive income exceeds my annual cash outflows. While that may be an anomaly, it's easy to save and grow one's net worth with a little bit of discipline. For the government to come in and further tax those who do the right thing seems like theft. In most provinces, marginal tax rates already exceed 50% and I question the fairness when the government gets more of an individual's earnings than the person actually putting in the time and effort.

Very well spoken but you have so much to learn. To be disciplined and save a little money means you actually have extra money. Less expensive car means you have a car, etc... Your point is vaild but from a position of privilige or luck. Total up all the expenses you feel a person has at minimum each month and then figure out how much they would have to make per hour after taxes. Then take a deep breath, feel grateful, and say holy fuck.
The system is broken and there are far too many poor people out there.

 

[masterpoonhunter]

As a 3rd string arm chair quarterback musing about tax law, it really is all about opinion isn't it. And maybe some years of gaining knowledge by osmosis and by paying tax, looking at how revenues are used and so on. So if I may, let me share some more musings on the topic about a Canada Rethink.

The Fraser Institute which is a decidedly right wing socio-economic think tank put out a report a few years ago that used the tax brackets vs income across the population to show that the 'rich' paid proportionately more tax. It is valid if not a bit incomplete. They missed the tax deductions and loopholes etc which all exist because of the golden rule of those with the gold making the rules. It really simplifies a much more complex issue and completely ignores those corporations and individuals with the $B's who pay a lot less tax than they should. Those folks shudder at the prospect of a flat tax and it would be good to have better metrics to work with but as a general note flat tax ie no deductions would have the Weston's, the Bronfman's, the Google's, Amazon's and similar cough up a lot more and you and I cough up less. And there would be some lawyers and accountants scrambling for new jobs but would that impact general jobs etc? Tax evasion estimates in Canada or the so called tax gap are of the order of $80B a year. Doesn't sound like much when you say it fast but that is half of health care spending. Closing the tax gap is meaningful.

Another point that has bothered me a long time. I am supposedly considered rich by the definition of the tax brackets, and have been paying the highest marginal tax rate for as long as I can remember. With deductions for my home office, loan interest, accounting and RSP and a few creative things (still haven't figured out how my pooning can be a deduction) I end up paying about 38% in income tax. I might be considered 'rich' by someone in a lower tax bracket, but I am not rich in the classic sense. I'm good, and can do and buy within reason what I want but if I look at the west side of Vancouver, or Shaughnessy or West Van, I am pretty middle class as far as consumption etc goes. If I paid 25% tax vs 38%, that extra 13% would be pretty damn significant to me. I mean I might even be able to afford to see Charlee Beckett!!

Maybe the issue of all this is more than the taxation but what any one of us perceives as fair.

Over to the next pooner bold enough to espouse an opinion.

 

[Amerix]

Another point that has bothered me a long time. I am supposedly considered rich by the definition of the tax brackets, and have been paying the highest marginal tax rate for as long as I can remember. With deductions for my home office, loan interest, accounting and RSP and a few creative things (still haven't figured out how my pooning can be a deduction) I end up paying about 38% in income tax. I might be considered 'rich' by someone in a lower tax bracket, but I am not rich in the classic sense. I'm good, and can do and buy within reason what I want but if I look at the west side of Vancouver, or Shaughnessy or West Van, I am pretty middle class as far as consumption etc goes. If I paid 25% tax vs 38%, that extra 13% would be pretty damn significant to me. I mean I might even be able to afford to see Charlee Beckett!!

The progressive income tax is designed to keep people like you from actually getting rich. If you could save enough to live on you might stop working and paying so much tax.

The really rich pay less than 30% on dividend income and no more than 25% on capital gains. They don't make their money in taxable form. I'm all for leveling that playing field, since I also pay over 35% of gross in just income tax, let alone CPP, EI, GST, PST, gax taxes, and over $6K a year in municipal taxes and utilities.

Having said that, I strongly believe that the fact the government is always broke is because they spend too much money. It doesn't matter how much tax they collect they'll find a way to spend all of it and more and then complain they don't get enough.

The poor do pay taxes. GST and HST at a minimum. Tobacco, MJ and gas taxes. CPP and EI if they work. Municipal taxes either directly or through their rent. They just don't pay income tax.

 

[happycanuck99]

Very well spoken but you have so much to learn. To be disciplined and save a little money means you actually have extra money. Less expensive car means you have a car, etc... Your point is vaild but from a position of privilige or luck. Total up all the expenses you feel a person has at minimum each month and then figure out how much they would have to make per hour after taxes. Then take a deep breath, feel grateful, and say holy fuck.
The system is broken and there are far too many poor people out there.

I think this is such an excellent point. Well said. I, personally, have met and know too many people who can be as disciplined as practically possible and still struggle to meet obligations. Those people won't be hanging out on this board, either. Paying companions is completely beyond the realm of possibility for them, and there are better sites if all you want is porn.

 

[overdone]

The progressive income tax is designed to keep people like you from actually getting rich. If you could save enough to live on you might stop working and paying so much tax.

The really rich pay less than 30% on dividend income and no more than 25% on capital gains. They don't make their money in taxable form. I'm all for leveling that playing field, since I also pay over 35% of gross in just income tax, let alone CPP, EI, GST, PST, gax taxes, and over $6K a year in municipal taxes and utilities.

Having said that, I strongly believe that the fact the government is always broke is because they spend too much money. It doesn't matter how much tax they collect they'll find a way to spend all of it and more and then complain they don't get enough.

The poor do pay taxes. GST and HST at a minimum. Tobacco, MJ and gas taxes. CPP and EI if they work. Municipal taxes either directly or through their rent. They just don't pay income tax.

there's nothing wrong with a progessive tax system

it just needs to be fair and balanced

not to the point where it discourages people from investing/working to make money

we don't have that anymore, the top rates in most provinces are above 50% now

the other real problem is the minimum amount that someone should be able to make before paying taxes, which everyone gets

it should be at the level needed to survive with the basics needed, eliminating most welfare

cause let's face it, the government isn't any good at handing out welfare, just look at the shit show with covid

as for the government spending, yeah

and as for the taxpayer, any time some moron says "THEY PAID THEIR SHARE OF TAXES"

they didn't if they did, we wouldn't have deficits or debt, which hasn't done anything but increase since the first POS Trudeau

fair and balance tax system, we don't have one

that's what's needed, along with massive curbs on government spending, most of which is wasted so badly on things that aren't needed, don't help those who need it

balance, like everything else

the % of those who truly need a hand up, isn't anywhere the number that's getting it now

we've got 30% or more on the public tit now with Trudeau

not counting the covid BS

we're on the tip of going from socialism to being a commie society

don't believe me, look at the recent polls on idiots not thinking for themselves when it comes to lockdowns/curfews/restrictions

 

[appleomac]

Your point is vaild but from a position of privilige or luck.

The system is broken and there are far too many poor people out there.

You're basically saying the poster you are responding to, it can't be that he/she worked hard or made tough decisions, any success someone has can only be a function of privilege and/or luck. While at the same time, when someone does not succeed or struggles, it's "the system is broken"! So to summarize your logic, a successful individual shall receive no credit and someone that is not successful and/or is struggling shall receive no blame. Interesting logic.

 

[g eazy]

You're basically saying the poster you are responding to, it can't be that he/she worked hard or made tough decisions, any success someone has can only be a function of privilege and/or luck. While at the same time, when someone does not succeed or struggles, it's "the system is broken"! So to summarize your logic, a successful individual shall receive no credit and someone that is not successful and/or is struggling shall receive no blame. Interesting logic.

I'm not sure if it's just your tendency to only be able to see things in black/white unless specific numerical values are used (as seen in a recurring theme throughout posts in this forum), but it's fairly apparently to me that when it is said "the system is broken", it isn't 100% broken or 0% successful - but somewhere in between broken and perfect where the poster thinks it's more broken than not. Perhaps the better question to ask here would be "how broken is the system and in what way can that be properly evaluated?"

 

[appleomac]

I'm not sure if it's just your tendency to only be able to see things in black/white unless specific numerical values are used (as seen in a recurring theme throughout posts in this forum), but it's fairly apparently to me that when it is said "the system is broken", it isn't 100% broken or 0% successful - but somewhere in between broken and perfect where the poster thinks it's more broken than not. Perhaps the better question to ask here would be "how broken is the system and in what way can that be properly evaluated?"

Pointing out someone who is (in my opinion) making a broad generality is questioning his/her "black and white" view - that does not imply that I have a "black and white" view. In other words, making broad strokes about an individual's success being about luck and/or privilege is the "black and white" view - it is ignoring all the factors that determine "success". You accusing me of having a black and white view - all I can do is reiterate that there is a BIG difference is pointing it out (which I was doing) vs having one (which you are accusing me of).

 

[g eazy]

Pointing out someone who is (in my opinion) making a broad generality is questioning his/her "black and white" view - that does not imply that I have a "black and white" view. In other words, making broad strokes about an individual's success being about luck and/or privilege is the "black and white" view - it is ignoring all the factors that determine "success". You accusing me of having a black and white view - all I can do is reiterate that there is a BIG difference is pointing it out (which I was doing) vs having one (which you are accusing me of).

I don't see it as being productive conversation by simply pointing it out. Why not go a step further and ask for these generalities to be explained?