Canada RETHINK

happycanuck99

Sucker for a smile! :)
Jun 28, 2018
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You're basically saying the poster you are responding to, it can't be that he/she worked hard or made tough decisions, any success someone has can only be a function of privilege and/or luck. While at the same time, when someone does not succeed or struggles, it's "the system is broken"! So to summarize your logic, a successful individual shall receive no credit and someone that is not successful and/or is struggling shall receive no blame. Interesting logic.
Well, I, for one, do believe that it's 90%, if not more, privilege and/or luck. Yep, I might sound like a left-wing pinko commie (I'm actually not, and may even be a little right of center), but even the good choices and decisions we're all proud of can't necessarily be made by the underprivileged. Here's a video I believe EVERYONE should watch someday: Life of Privilege Explained in a $100 Race - YouTube

If you think you're responsible for your success and wealth, my first question is "what did you do to be born in Canada"? (Please don't be pedantic if you weren't born in Canada or aren't there now - rephrase the question based on your situation.)

I consider myself to be an extremely fortunate person, and even I don't think I realize often enough how much privilege and luck I've had.
 

appleomac

Active member
Aug 9, 2010
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If you think you're responsible for your success and wealth, my first question is "what did you do to be born in Canada"? (Please don't be pedantic if you weren't born in Canada or aren't there now - rephrase the question based on your situation.)
I was born in Canada - but how is that relevant to the discussion?
 
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happycanuck99

Sucker for a smile! :)
Jun 28, 2018
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I was born in Canada - but how is that relevant to the discussion?
Clearly you didn't watch the video, and possibly didn't actually read my post. At least one of the many tangents in this thread is about privilege/luck vs. good choices/decisions. That's the topic I was responding to. My impression, though I may have misunderstood, was that's also what you were talking about. :)

P.S. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted you directly, since I felt my post was really directed at anyone that was taking a position of having "worked for everything and/or made the right choices/decisions" as the reason for success.
 

appleomac

Active member
Aug 9, 2010
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Clearly you didn't watch the video, and possibly didn't actually read my post. At least one of the many tangents in this thread is about privilege/luck vs. good choices/decisions. That's the topic I was responding to. My impression, though I may have misunderstood, was that's also what you were talking about. :)
I have seen the video before. It's simple, life is not a race. Life is like going to the gym - everyone goes to the gym to get something out of it. Some go to the gym to lose 20 pounds, some go to train for a 10k charity race, etc., etc. In other words, going to the gym, much like life is NOT about WINNING or LOSING. If you go to the gym and the only thing you can do is look over at the person on the trend-mill next to you and think "gawd damn he/she is beating me" - YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG! So, to use the race analogy - life is NOT about beating others - the race is setting your own expectations/goals/objective and working towards it - irrespective of what others' expectations/goals/objectives may be. The race is trying to achieve your goals, not beat someone else. If you constantly go through life wishing "that person" didn't have "this" or "that" - again, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!
 

appleomac

Active member
Aug 9, 2010
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I don't see it as being productive conversation by simply pointing it out. Why not go a step further and ask for these generalities to be explained?
The generalities do not need explanation - you know, generalities (correct or not) speak for themselves. If someone states a generality, such as "all teenagers are thugs" - why would anyone need an explanation - such statements speak for themselves, don't they? If someone says "all teenagers are thugs" and I respond with "well that's a rather broad statement" - fine, you think it's not productive. But what explanation is required from those that made the generalization??? What point, are you even trying to make?
 

happycanuck99

Sucker for a smile! :)
Jun 28, 2018
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I have seen the video before. It's simple, life is not a race. Life is like going to the gym - everyone goes to the gym to get something out of it. Some go to the gym to lose 20 pounds, some go to train for a 10k charity race, etc., etc. In other words, going to the gym, much like life is NOT about WINNING or LOSING. If you go to the gym and the only thing you can do is look over at the person on the trend-mill next to you and think "gawd damn he/she is beating me" - YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG! So, to use the race analogy - life is NOT about beating others - the race is setting your own expectations/goals/objective and working towards it - irrespective of what others' expectations/goals/objectives may be. The race is trying to achieve your goals, not beat someone else. If you constantly go through life wishing "that person" didn't have "this" or "that" - again, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!
I guess I'm simply not getting what you're saying, because no matter how you say it, it sounds like you're coming from a position of privilege, and much more privilege than most people have in this world. And I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying either. To me it sounds like you saw the video and completely missed the point. How does a quadriplegic-from-birth fit into your gym analogy? There are a lot of people that can't even GET to a gym!
 

appleomac

Active member
Aug 9, 2010
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I guess I'm simply not getting what you're saying, because no matter how you say it, it sounds like you're coming from a position of privilege, and much more privilege than most people have in this world. And I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying either. To me it sounds like you saw the video and completely missed the point. How does a quadriplegic-from-birth fit into your gym analogy? There are a lot of people that can't even GET to a gym!
The point/analogy of the gym is about having a goal NOT who can afford a gym membership - my goodness. Being confined to a wheelchair because of a disability does NOT in anyway mean that that particular individual cannot have their own goals/objectives. Sure, they won't be an NBA player or the next Sidney Crosby - but that doesn't mean they can't have and achieve their own objective/goals. Again, stop thinking about life as WINNING vs LOSING - if you can't drop that view of life, you will in fact NEVER get what I am saying. If person A wants to be an actor and person B wants to be an accountant and if A ultimately makes it and B does not, that is not actually a race. You can say, that sucks that B couldn't get into accounting school or whatever, that may be an unfortunate situation, but B did not LOSE a race nor did person A WIN a race. Because life is not a race! You set goals/objective, you work towards them and is often the case in life, you may need to adjust your objectives/goals along the way. But in no way is life a race. What's that old saying, "it's a journey not a race" or "it's about the journey not the destination."
 

happycanuck99

Sucker for a smile! :)
Jun 28, 2018
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The point/analogy of the gym is about having a goal NOT who can afford a gym membership - my goodness. Being confined to a wheelchair because of a disability does NOT in anyway mean that that particular individual cannot have their own goals/objectives. Sure, they won't be an NBA player or the next Sidney Crosby - but that doesn't mean they can't have and achieve their own objective/goals. Again, stop thinking about life as WINNING vs LOSING - if you can't drop that view of life, you will in fact NEVER get what I am saying. If person A wants to be an actor and person B wants to be an accountant and if A ultimately makes it and B does not, that is not actually a race. You can say, that sucks that B couldn't get into accounting school or whatever, that may be an unfortunate situation, but B did not LOSE a race nor did person A WIN a race. Because life is not a race! You set goals/objective, you work towards them and is often the case in life, you may need to adjust your objectives/goals along the way. But in no way is life a race. What's that old saying, "it's a journey not a race" or "it's about the journey not the destination."
Actually, I think you and I may be closer in opinion than it may appear. I actually STRONGLY agree that it's not about winning or losing. But I don't think that's the point of the video, either, and I think that may be where we differ. The point of the video, imho, is privilege, not who will ultimately "win the race". But I think you're busy describing apples when I'm talking about oranges.

I'm always concerned, though, about the attitude that anyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That instantly raises suspicions that the speaker doesn't recognize his/her own privilege.

P.S. I also think most of us spend too much time envying the people with more than we have, and not enough on being thankful we have so much more than such a large percentage of the world. I know that's a problem I have. For example, when I read (in another thread) about someone managing 5-30 dates per month, I tend to be jealous rather than being thankful for the 1-2 that I can afford. :D
 

appleomac

Active member
Aug 9, 2010
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Actually, I think you and I may be closer in opinion than it may appear. I actually STRONGLY agree that it's not about winning or losing. But I don't think that's the point of the video, either, and I think that may be where we differ. The point of the video, imho, is privilege, not who will ultimately "win the race". But I think you're busy describing apples when I'm talking about oranges.

I'm always concerned, though, about the attitude that anyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That instantly raises suspicions that the speaker doesn't recognize his/her own privilege.
As far as I can see, that is the point of that video. The messaging is clear, "you can't win because 'those people' have 'this' and 'that'". There's no other way to interpret it. Saying nothing for the fact that (again) life is not a race!

I don't believe anyone in this thread has said "anyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps". However, when there is a constant narrative/framing of "the system is broken" or "you can only win a race if you have 'this' or 'that'" - it's hard to believe those with that type of view even believe in making an effort to begin with! I will never judge someone who ultimately can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps - I will however, judge (rather harshly) those that don't even try.
 
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happycanuck99

Sucker for a smile! :)
Jun 28, 2018
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As far as I can see, that is the point of that video. The messaging is clear, "you can't win because 'those people' have 'this' and 'that'". There's no other way to interpret it. Saying nothing for the fact that (again) life is not a race!

I don't believe anyone in this thread has said "anyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps". However, when there is a constant narrative/framing of "the system is broken" or "you can only win a race if you have 'this' or 'that'" - it's hard to believe those with that type of view even believe in making an effort to begin with! I will never judge someone who ultimately can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps - I will however, judge (rather harshly) those that don't even try.
There ya go! When framed correctly I think we agree on a LOT. I, too, believe it's everyone's responsibility to try, and to do as well as possible with what they're given. In fact, the only part of this where we still don't see eye to eye is on the point of the video, and really at the end of the day I think it's ok if we don't. :)
 

newbie123

New member
Sep 11, 2020
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The absolutely necessary expenses are far less than most people think if you are willing to make sacrifices. In University, I worked two jobs while in university to pay my tuition and day to day expenses (admittedly, I am fortunate to live in a province with very low tuition), had roommates, and didn't have a car. Back then I was able to save a little bit of money. Even today, my annual cash outflows are less than what I would make if I earned minimum wage (I'm mortgage free but even if I added rent for a 1 bedroom apartment my expenses would be pretty close to someone working full time at minimum wage) despite a salary that puts me in the top 1-2%. I live in Winnipeg which I realize is very different than those living in Vancouver or Toronto, but people still choose where to reside.

Out of university (13 years ago), I started at a $27K salary and continued with roommates and keeping expenses as low as possible to save for a condo down payment. That meant no travelling, minimal dating, no eating out, public transportation when possible, etc. and allowed to save a considerable portion of my salary. For the first 10 years, I was working 6-7 days a week and lost count how many 20+ hour work days and 100+ hour work weeks that were put in. Over the last couple years, I've dropped down to averaging 60-80 hours a week and trying to enjoy life a little more. I do struggle with people commenting about privilege because I see so many others making different - meaning easier and probably more enjoyable - decisions and then complaining about the different outcomes. While I have gotten some breaks over my career, I have also worked as hard as anyone to earn them and as the saying goes "the harder I work the more luck I seem to have"

Very well spoken but you have so much to learn. To be disciplined and save a little money means you actually have extra money. Less expensive car means you have a car, etc... Your point is vaild but from a position of privilige or luck. Total up all the expenses you feel a person has at minimum each month and then figure out how much they would have to make per hour after taxes. Then take a deep breath, feel grateful, and say holy fuck.
The system is broken and there are far too many poor people out there.
 
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newbie123

New member
Sep 11, 2020
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The progressive income tax is designed to keep people like you from actually getting rich. If you could save enough to live on you might stop working and paying so much tax.

The really rich pay less than 30% on dividend income and no more than 25% on capital gains. They don't make their money in taxable form. I'm all for leveling that playing field, since I also pay over 35% of gross in just income tax, let alone CPP, EI, GST, PST, gax taxes, and over $6K a year in municipal taxes and utilities.

Having said that, I strongly believe that the fact the government is always broke is because they spend too much money. It doesn't matter how much tax they collect they'll find a way to spend all of it and more and then complain they don't get enough.

The poor do pay taxes. GST and HST at a minimum. Tobacco, MJ and gas taxes. CPP and EI if they work. Municipal taxes either directly or through their rent. They just don't pay income tax.
I agree with this. I think people get frustrated with taxation levels because of the ineptitude of all governments (municipal, provincial, federal; all parties) when it comes to spending money. Most people don't feel like they get good value for the tax dollars they pay but instead of directing that frustration towards government to reign in spending, it seems the easier solution is to just add or create new taxes. Inevitably, it will always be more than just the "rich" that pay given the limited number in that category.

Interestingly, it only takes about $92K of income (all sources of income including employment AND gross investment income) to be in the top 10% of earners in Canada. Most people don't consider making $90K as rich. However, if you frame it percentiles, most will say that the top decile is in the "rich" or "very well off" category so it can result in an interesting conversation. It's one of the reasons politicians are so reluctant to define the "middle class" they are always targeting.
 

johnnydepth

Average Sized Member
Nov 14, 2015
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You're basically saying the poster you are responding to, it can't be that he/she worked hard or made tough decisions, any success someone has can only be a function of privilege and/or luck. While at the same time, when someone does not succeed or struggles, it's "the system is broken"! So to summarize your logic, a successful individual shall receive no credit and someone that is not successful and/or is struggling shall receive no blame. Interesting logic.
Nope, not at all what I said, that's just how you would like to interpret it.
 

johnnydepth

Average Sized Member
Nov 14, 2015
1,686
451
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winnipeg
The absolutely necessary expenses are far less than most people think if you are willing to make sacrifices. In University, I worked two jobs while in university to pay my tuition and day to day expenses (admittedly, I am fortunate to live in a province with very low tuition), had roommates, and didn't have a car. Back then I was able to save a little bit of money. Even today, my annual cash outflows are less than what I would make if I earned minimum wage (I'm mortgage free but even if I added rent for a 1 bedroom apartment my expenses would be pretty close to someone working full time at minimum wage) despite a salary that puts me in the top 1-2%. I live in Winnipeg which I realize is very different than those living in Vancouver or Toronto, but people still choose where to reside.

Out of university (13 years ago), I started at a $27K salary and continued with roommates and keeping expenses as low as possible to save for a condo down payment. That meant no travelling, minimal dating, no eating out, public transportation when possible, etc. and allowed to save a considerable portion of my salary. For the first 10 years, I was working 6-7 days a week and lost count how many 20+ hour work days and 100+ hour work weeks that were put in. Over the last couple years, I've dropped down to averaging 60-80 hours a week and trying to enjoy life a little more. I do struggle with people commenting about privilege because I see so many others making different - meaning easier and probably more enjoyable - decisions and then complaining about the different outcomes. While I have gotten some breaks over my career, I have also worked as hard as anyone to earn them and as the saying goes "the harder I work the more luck I seem to have"
OK lets try this another way. Today 2021 you make $23,000 year before taxes (minimum wage). Give me a breakdown of your rent, utilities, transportation and food.
 
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happycanuck99

Sucker for a smile! :)
Jun 28, 2018
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OK lets try this another way. Today 2021 you make $23,000 year before taxes (minimum wage). Give me a breakdown of your rent, utilities, transportation and food.
I'm curious too, but by my calculations $23k seems a little low. How many hours per year are you basing this on? And pardon me for asking, but what did you use for "minimum wage"? I believe that's province-specific, and I'm embarrassed to admit I don't know what it is here.
 

g eazy

pretentious douche
Feb 15, 2018
866
676
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The generalities do not need explanation - you know, generalities (correct or not) speak for themselves. If someone states a generality, such as "all teenagers are thugs" - why would anyone need an explanation - such statements speak for themselves, don't they? If someone says "all teenagers are thugs" and I respond with "well that's a rather broad statement" - fine, you think it's not productive. But what explanation is required from those that made the generalization??? What point, are you even trying to make?
That was pretty much the point I was trying to make - that posts like the one being discussed here are not productive, which is unfortunate because I think you are very articulate (and more often than not I tend to agree with you, but besides the point) but you don't always choose to progress conversations in a constructive manner. It feels to me that you are more concerned with being right (which you are more often that not) but have no interest in getting others to a common understanding, whether that is to have them understand you or vice versa.
 
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appleomac

Active member
Aug 9, 2010
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OK lets try this another way. Today 2021 you make $23,000 year before taxes (minimum wage). Give me a breakdown of your rent, utilities, transportation and food.
It wasn't asked of me, but what the heck, I was curious to figure this out. You are based in Winnipeg, so I'm guessing 23k is Manitoba minimum wage annualized - I'll take that as correct. All expenses that I've researched will also be based on Winnipeg.

Gross to Net:
Manitoba tax rate for minimum wage earning (10.8%) - I'll round to 11%
Manitoba Basic Personal Amount - about $9,800
Manitoba Taxes Due - (23,000 - 9,800) x 11% = $1,452

Federal tax rate for 23k per year (15%)
Federal Basic Personal Amount - about $13,000
Federal Taxes Due (23,000 - 13,000) x 15% = $1,500

CPP and EI - about 7%
CPP and EI paid (23,000 x 7%) = 1,610

Net Income = 23,000 - 1,452 - 1,500 - 1,610 = 18,438
Monthly Net Income = 18,438 / 12 = $1,536

Rent ($612 per month)
CTVNews Winnipeg reported the following:
Average Winnipeg Bachelor Suite Rent - $733 per month
Average Winnipeg 2-bedroom Rent - $1,223 per month
We'll assume a single person who is penny pinching will opt for a roommate and 2-bedroom for $612/month for rent.

Source: https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/the-ave...re-than-1-200-supply-is-stable-cmhc-1.4768835

Utilities ($106 per month)
Canadian average (2019) per year spent on water, fuel and electricity for principal accommodation - $2,535
Therefore, $2,535 divided by 12 months and divided by two people = about $106
*$106 per person for 2 people in a 2 bedroom apartment seems high, but whatever, we'll go with it.

Source: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110022201

Food: ($300 per month)
Tons of articles online that quotes a StatsCan figure of $214 per month per person in grocery expenditures. I couldn't find the exact StatsCan page that quotes this. I used $300 per month to be conservative.

Transportation: ($105 per month)
Monthly Winnipeg All Fare Transit Pass

Source: https://winnipegtransit.com/en/fares/transit-fares#faresummary

Other ($150 per month)
Smartphone and home internet, it's the only other things that most people would consider a must.

Total monthly expense = $1,273
Total monthly income = $1,536
Excess = $263

It's not an ideal life in my opinion. But with additional penny-pinching strategies, it's do-able - albeit most would not be happy doing it.
 

g eazy

pretentious douche
Feb 15, 2018
866
676
93
Well, I, for one, do believe that it's 90%, if not more, privilege and/or luck. Yep, I might sound like a left-wing pinko commie (I'm actually not, and may even be a little right of center), but even the good choices and decisions we're all proud of can't necessarily be made by the underprivileged. Here's a video I believe EVERYONE should watch someday: Life of Privilege Explained in a $100 Race - YouTube

If you think you're responsible for your success and wealth, my first question is "what did you do to be born in Canada"? (Please don't be pedantic if you weren't born in Canada or aren't there now - rephrase the question based on your situation.)

I consider myself to be an extremely fortunate person, and even I don't think I realize often enough how much privilege and luck I've had.
I get the intent of the video, but if the delivery is taken in literal terms then it is very poorly executed. A race implies there are winners and losers, and in the context of the video it would appear that there is only one winner of a $100 bill. In that example there are no incentives for those who start with a disadvantage to even bother. They tried to generalize that concept too much in a way that it'd get picked apart by guys like appleomac.

In my opinion a better analogy would be: after all the steps have been taken, you give everyone 5 seconds to run as far as they can from the start line, and everyone gets a dollar for each meter they are from the start. In this case, those who are behind to begin with are still incentivized to run as far as they can, but they will have little to no chance of catching up to those who had big leads to start.

As an aside... if you did watch the video to the very end, you can see the guys who were at the very start and had hardly taken any steps, they blasted through those who had big leads very quickly :ROFLMAO: so much so that I'm almost certain the video had to get cut short so that the point could still be proven.
 

g eazy

pretentious douche
Feb 15, 2018
866
676
93
The absolutely necessary expenses are far less than most people think if you are willing to make sacrifices. In University, I worked two jobs while in university to pay my tuition and day to day expenses (admittedly, I am fortunate to live in a province with very low tuition), had roommates, and didn't have a car. Back then I was able to save a little bit of money. Even today, my annual cash outflows are less than what I would make if I earned minimum wage (I'm mortgage free but even if I added rent for a 1 bedroom apartment my expenses would be pretty close to someone working full time at minimum wage) despite a salary that puts me in the top 1-2%. I live in Winnipeg which I realize is very different than those living in Vancouver or Toronto, but people still choose where to reside.

Out of university (13 years ago), I started at a $27K salary and continued with roommates and keeping expenses as low as possible to save for a condo down payment. That meant no travelling, minimal dating, no eating out, public transportation when possible, etc. and allowed to save a considerable portion of my salary. For the first 10 years, I was working 6-7 days a week and lost count how many 20+ hour work days and 100+ hour work weeks that were put in. Over the last couple years, I've dropped down to averaging 60-80 hours a week and trying to enjoy life a little more. I do struggle with people commenting about privilege because I see so many others making different - meaning easier and probably more enjoyable - decisions and then complaining about the different outcomes. While I have gotten some breaks over my career, I have also worked as hard as anyone to earn them and as the saying goes "the harder I work the more luck I seem to have"
I think it is absolutely commendable for you to consciously struggle to get where you are in life. In today's day and age, not many people are able to do what you did, partly because of the environment we now live in (consumption culture) and that environment is propagated widely in the western world.

I think your case was an extreme and an anomaly. While I don't doubt it to be true, there may be things that were unknowingly left behind. Privilege begins at birth (hence earlier the question "were you born in Canada"), and from there our environment shapes us to be who we end up being. Perhaps someone else working two jobs in university would not have the resilience or mental fortitude to do what you did if they didn't have family and friends that helped them shape their values as they grew up (just paraphrasing, but that is an example). I think what other posters and I are getting at is that it isn't as simple as work X hours, get paid Y dollars, even if that plays a more obvious role in where we all end up where we are.
 

happycanuck99

Sucker for a smile! :)
Jun 28, 2018
314
371
63
It wasn't asked of me, but what the heck, I was curious to figure this out. You are based in Winnipeg, so I'm guessing 23k is Manitoba minimum wage annualized - I'll take that as correct. All expenses that I've researched will also be based on Winnipeg.

Gross to Net:
Manitoba tax rate for minimum wage earning (10.8%) - I'll round to 11%
Manitoba Basic Personal Amount - about $9,800
Manitoba Taxes Due - (23,000 - 9,800) x 11% = $1,452

Federal tax rate for 23k per year (15%)
Federal Basic Personal Amount - about $13,000
Federal Taxes Due (23,000 - 13,000) x 15% = $1,500

CPP and EI - about 7%
CPP and EI paid (23,000 x 7%) = 1,610

Net Income = 23,000 - 1,452 - 1,500 - 1,610 = 18,438
Monthly Net Income = 18,438 / 12 = $1,536

Rent ($612 per month)
CTVNews Winnipeg reported the following:
Average Winnipeg Bachelor Suite Rent - $733 per month
Average Winnipeg 2-bedroom Rent - $1,223 per month
We'll assume a single person who is penny pinching will opt for a roommate and 2-bedroom for $612/month for rent.

Source: https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/the-ave...re-than-1-200-supply-is-stable-cmhc-1.4768835

Utilities ($106 per month)
Canadian average (2019) per year spent on water, fuel and electricity for principal accommodation - $2,535
Therefore, $2,535 divided by 12 months and divided by two people = about $106
*$106 per person for 2 people in a 2 bedroom apartment seems high, but whatever, we'll go with it.

Source: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110022201

Food: ($300 per month)
Tons of articles online that quotes a StatsCan figure of $214 per month per person in grocery expenditures. I couldn't find the exact StatsCan page that quotes this. I used $300 per month to be conservative.

Transportation: ($105 per month)
Monthly Winnipeg All Fare Transit Pass

Source: https://winnipegtransit.com/en/fares/transit-fares#faresummary

Other ($150 per month)
Smartphone and home internet, it's the only other things that most people would consider a must.

Total monthly expense = $1,273
Total monthly income = $1,536
Excess = $263

It's not an ideal life in my opinion. But with additional penny-pinching strategies, it's do-able - albeit most would not be happy doing it.
WOW! That's a lot of research for one PERB thread! I'm impressed - well done. :)

It's definitely not the kind of life I'd want to lead. Also, from my experience your "other" is likely a little low (furniture, clothing, household items, etc.), but still I think you've made the point quite well.
 
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