Canada and First nations people going to War??

[LaCreme]

This does not make sense LC as the natives are allowed to take untold
numbers of salmon like never before. They don't fish in the same style
as they used to do with dip nets standing on a rock outcropping like in
the old days. Today they proliferate the river with drift, set and gill nets.

All these fish except for a few are sold............period !

What is this sud you refer to where NA fish are different from that?


.............QM'r

who has imax in their town??? did you see under the sea movie..
it wont show the reporter i saw befor but this one is a peace of mind.

 

[OTBn]

The market dictates what people want. If someone fails in the market, it is because they were unwilling to change. The unwillingness stems from a lack of drive and initiative. In short, they wanted to fail.

They market determines and will continue to determine everything.

Your simplistic “market dictates” analogy presumes that a “marketplace” exists for all conditions and contributors to the current FN plight. It further presumes that there is unfettered access to that “marketplace”, that there is a level playing ground within that “marketplace”, that goods and services exist and can be brought “to market”, that competition is open/available, that tools/knowledge to function within that “marketplace” exist, etc., etc., etc.,…

Are you saying you’ve never experienced personal loss or failure within your work/investments… your “marketplace”? Are you also psychic? What… you weren’t willing to change? No drive… no initiative… why did you want to fail?

 

[jjinvan]

Then they will have to be disbanded by force.

Ask the israelis how well that worked with the palestinians.

I think the quickest easiest thing at this point would be to sit down and negotiate a deal with each FN person, whereby they get something (education, a home off a reserve, job training, whatever) and in return they agree that they and their decendants become just plain old Canadian citizens.

If things are so bad on the reserves (which I Do believe to be the case for the majority) then they'll be eager to 'have the same things the white man has'.

The thing is, it won't fly because the band leaders will say "No, you have to give everything to US and WE will decide who gets what". Guess what? That's how we got where we are now. (It is also why the Kelowna accord is such a useless joke).

I've seen the kids coming out of the 'tribal schools' run by the bands. They are waaaaay behind in any skills or abilities that they would need to succeed in a traditional academic program. So, once they graduate from tribal school, they have an extremely tough time if they want to go further in their education.

On the other hand, the kids whose bands don't have seperate schools, and who go to regular schools from kindergarten actually perform in keeping with their intellectual abilities and do much better.

The problem is, we have the whole 'residential schools' thing hanging over the head of anyone who says that the best solution is to put the FN children in regular schools. Whoever came up with the idea of turning FN people over to the church for education was a moron.

And before OTBn and friends jump on the idea that Harper is right wing and therefore a religious nutjob, keep in mind that he proposes MUCH stricter penalties for things like child abuse than the liberals ever brought in. Priests abusing children has NOTHING to do with religion.

Yes, I know, the residental school problems went way beyond the child abusers.

 

[jjinvan]

The Bands would sell their land, give a fair share to each of its members and then no longer exist.

Therin lies the tricky part.

Any suggestions?

 

[jjinvan]

Your simplistic “market dictates” analogy presumes that a “marketplace” exists for all conditions and contributors to the current FN plight. It further presumes that there is unfettered access to that “marketplace”, that there is a level playing ground within that “marketplace”, that goods and services exist and can be brought “to market”, that competition is open/available, that tools/knowledge to function within that “marketplace” exist, etc., etc., etc.,…

Are you saying you’ve never experienced personal loss or failure within your work/investments… your “marketplace”? Are you also psychic? What… you weren’t willing to change? No drive… no initiative… why did you want to fail?

Actually that wasn't the problem with his theory.

The problem is the whole wealth pyramid. The FN people with drive and initiative have either left the reservation and are doing quite well externally or are the ones up on top of the food chain on the reservation and are also doing quite well.

Because of the size of the populations involved, the pyramid effect is VERY strong. Look at any small dictatorship, you see the same thing happening WITHOUT influence from our federal government.

 

[he_loves_fat]

Your simplistic “market dictates” analogy presumes that a “marketplace” exists for all conditions and contributors to the current FN plight. It further presumes that there is unfettered access to that “marketplace”, that there is a level playing ground within that “marketplace”, that goods and services exist and can be brought “to market”, that competition is open/available, that tools/knowledge to function within that “marketplace” exist, etc., etc., etc.,…

Are you saying you’ve never experienced personal loss or failure within your work/investments… your “marketplace”? Are you also psychic? What… you weren’t willing to change? No drive… no initiative… why did you want to fail?

Everyone knows there are barriers to succeeding in the market, but if they weren't then it wouldn't be a market - it would be a socialist welfare state. Those barriers of unequal access to this and that (as you noted above) are what make it a challenge. The only people who dislike challenge are those who cannot meet them.

 

[OTBn]

LOL, the Kelowna Accord.. how did I know you'd trot that out.

Maybe you better look a little closer at what actually was agreed to.

Say what? The Kelowna Accord included federal-provincial agreements on the provision of education, housing and health services, along with benchmarks for tracking progress within each... yes, some of the details remained to be settled in terms of health-care delivery... but the agreements were signed by government and FN leaders. Harper has deemed those agreements inconsequential - Harper, the champion of human rights for the Chinese... but diddly squat for Canada's FN.

 

[jjinvan]

Say what? The Kelowna Accord included federal-provincial agreements on the provision of education, housing and health services, along with benchmarks for tracking progress within each... yes, some of the details remained to be settled in terms of health-care delivery... but the agreements were signed by government and FN leaders. Harper has deemed those agreements inconsequential - Harper, the champion of human rights for the Chinese... but diddly squat for Canada's FN.

Yes yes, and Dion's Kyoto plan had benchmarks and targets and penalties and all sorts of things in it too.

Just 'some of the details' that he never got around to settling in terms of actually doing anything other than naming his dog Kyoto.

The Kelowna Accord was a big random amount of cash that the liberals thought was the politically right number which they then tried to work backwards from without actually figuring out any of the details of how it was all supposed to work.

JUST LIKE KYOTO.

 

[citylover]

He's applying for the lap dog position w/ Bush that opened up w/ Blair's resignation.

Conservatives don't believe in treaties & the rule of law, it gets in the way of the gifts they need for their mistresses (&/or mister-ies?)

 

[jjinvan]

Everyone knows there are barriers to succeeding in the market, but if they weren't then it wouldn't be a market - it would be a socialist welfare state. Those barriers of unequal access to this and that (as you noted above) are what make it a challenge. The only people who dislike challenge are those who cannot meet them.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with OTBn's idea of paradise..

I think that was her point, that everything should be a socialist welfare state. That's ALWAYS her point.

 

[jjinvan]

Conservatives don't believe in treaties & the rule of law, it gets in the way of the gifts they need for their mistresses (&/or mister-ies?)

If you're speaking of the Kelowna BS, please point out where that money was allocated in a budget that was approved by the federal government?

Oh, wait, that's right, the liberals were on their 'drunken monkey' spending spree that month and weren't concerned with things like actually having the money somewhere to pay for it all.

 

[he_loves_fat]

Apparently you are unfamiliar with OTBn's idea of paradise..

I think that was her point, that everything should be a socialist welfare state. That's ALWAYS her point.

That's not cool. I don't want my tax dollars going to bums!

 

[citylover]

*yawn* can't this guy go back to the fifties & leave the internet alone for awhile?


yes, treaty rights... another nefarious and cunning plot by the worldwide green socialist conspiracy to steal the internet doktor's SUV & give it to some poor Indian, preferably one in Canada illegally



The sound of hoof beats 'cross the glade / Good folk, lock up your son and daughter / Beware the deadly flashing blade / Unless you want to end up shorter / Black Adder, Black Adder, he rides a pitch black steed / Black Adder, Black Adder, he's very bad indeed / Black: his gloves of finest mole / Black: his codpiece made of metal / His horse is blacker than a hole / His pot is blacker than his kettle / Black Adder, Black Adder, with many an cunning plan / Black Adder, Black Adder, you horrid little man.

I have come up with a plan so cunning that if it were alive, you could call it a weasel.

 

[LonelyGhost]

Ok, points 1-4 you have bang on. I wonder if you agree that a big part of the problem is actually a small number of the FN people who are fleecing the rest?

For #5, do you really not understand WHY they can't borrow money against the land or the houses on the reserves?

If they removed that restriction things would VERY QUICKLY get a LOT worse.

yes. but for the racists to say that the problem is a lack of initiative
and drive, what would happen to our budding entrepreneurs if we
took away their ability to borrow to start a business?

this used to happen to lots of women when they were still considered
chattel and not citizens, they couldn't even OWN property ... lots
of women now run very successful businesses.

but yes, until the 'internal' corruption and exploitation is dealt with,
other problems cannot be adequately addressed.

 

[OTBn]

If you're speaking of the Kelowna BS, please point out where that money was allocated in a budget that was approved by the federal government?

Oh, wait, that's right, the liberals were on their 'drunken monkey' spending spree that month and weren't concerned with things like actually having the money somewhere to pay for it all.

sorry - Canadians were side-tracked with your "brown envelopes" nonsense and had a momentary lapse in judgment... otherwise, the Kelowna Accord would be implemented.
.
.
.
- $5 Billion in new social spending was planned. Housing, education, health services, clean drinking water, and economic development were prioritized.

- $1.8 billion for education, to create school systems, train more aboriginal teachers and identify children with special needs.

- $1.6 billion for housing, including $400 million to address the need for clean water in many remote communities.

- $1.3 billion for health services.

- $200 million for economic development.

Seems like a sound implementation plan... Regional Implementation Approaches and National Process; Health; Education; Housing; Economic Opportunities ... http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/nr/prs/s-d2005/02749bk_e.html

But jj... your man Harper has stated he's in favour of the principles and objectives of the Kelowna Accord... what's holding him back? What's changed?

jj, do you align with your man Harper's assessment... his favoured agreement with the Kelowna Accord? What's that... can't hear ya... can ya speak up a bit?

 

[OTBn]

damn, citylover... jj is soooo Black Adder

 

[1shiningstar]

give us what you owe us.QUOTE]

I am a Canadian. I was born here, my mother was born here, and my grandparents moved here in the early 50's from Holland. ANYONE who has citizenship is a Canadian, regardless of how long they have lived here or the colour of their skin. I do not owe anyone anything because of the colour of my skin, THAT is a racist view.

With regards to the schools, I went to school in Vernon BC and all the kids from the reserve attended the same schools as the rest of the city. I didn't get accepted into my university program the first time I applied because there are seats reserved for FN's, it didn't matter that I had better marks and was more eligible for the program.

Anyone who wants to go have a look at the reserve just outside of Vernon, please note that many of the houses are beautiful lakefront properties that my family could never afford.

Yes, we need to be helping the people who attended residential schools, they were aweful. Keep in mind though, most of the residential schools closed in the 50's with the last one closing in (correct me if I'm wrong) '73. They were closed before my generation was even born. I think we need to help FN's enter the workforce and participate in Canada's multicultural environment. No more treaty payments, no more racist BS.

People are people, we need to force the government to act that way.

 

[LonelyGhost]

give us what you owe us.QUOTE]

I am a Canadian. I was born here,
People are people, we need to force the government to act that way.

exactly, and aboriginals continue to be treated differently by
the government!!!

read my first post in this thread and see how wonderfully
many aboriginals are doing ... any other group in society
with those problems and it would be considered a crisis or
even genocide ...

here its considered 'situation normal'.

 

[he_loves_fat]

exactly, and aboriginals continue to be treated differently by
the government!!!

read my first post in this thread and see how wonderfully
many aboriginals are doing ... any other group in society
with those problems and it would be considered a crisis or
even genocide ...

here its considered 'situation normal'.

Most (if not all) of that was essentially self-inflicted. Once FN people admit this, then they can move on and prosper and be useful.

 

[he_loves_fat]

now I know which handles to turn away and banish as clients!

he_loves_fat: "If FNs had the drive, initiative, and indeed the intelligence, they would have come to Europe and colonized England and France."

I just received an -A in my last class and things are going excellent.

The offensive remarks on this thread actually reinforce and give credit to the problems of racism I always lived amongst. So again, thank you for displaying your hatred and intolerance for FNs.

Why aren't you getting an A+?

And furthermore, I don't hate FN people. I'll often bang a FN SP when I've got an extra green burning a hole in my pocket!

Lastly, tolerance (of any kind) is earned - much like trust, respect, and admiration.