Canada and First nations people going to War??

[OTBn]

Or why not just abolish the bands and empower FN people to live as regular Canadians do?

empower? can we say Kelowna Accord? Even after the government transition, former Liberal PM Martin came forward with the private members bill to have the Kelowna Accord implemented. All 3 Opposition parties (Libs, NDP and Bloc) voted in favour... the Cons rejected it... on top of the budget cuts they made. Is it any wonder the "natives are restless".

The Kelowna Accord - 18 months of negotiations with First Nation leaders that the Conservatives, apparently, have no respect for... and no intentions to implement the signed agreements.

 

[Quarter Mile'r]

Phil Fountaine said this the other night on CBC radio.

I agree with that, assuming he means both the rights and responsibilities.

I believe the Indian Act is seriously flawed, and makes FN people essentially wards of the state, and needs to be overhauled to make the Bands into municipal style self-government.

This.............

Or why not just abolish the bands and empower FN people to live as regular Canadians do?

and this is probably the way our gov't should consider on how to deal
with the problem. Throwing money at the problem like they have for an
eternity has done nothing to improve the situation. Like BB said the gov't
treats them as wards of the state and shrug off their responsibility to
actually negotiate something more substantial to get the poverty cloud
lifted from FN's people.


...........QM'r

 

[OTBn]

1. FN have the lowest standard of living in Canada, and more 'other'
Canadians have computers in their homes than FN on reserves have
indoor plumbing!

2. FN have the highest rates of homicide, suicide, incarceration,
alcoholism, drug addiction, AID/STI's, diabetes, and tuberculosis.

3. While women fought for and got the right to vote in the 1920's,
Aboriginals who fought for Canada in all the wars did not get the
right to vote until the 1960!

4. Residential schools: read it and weep. Absolute brutality.

5. Finally, for all those 'free taxes' BS, it is horribly off-set by the
Indian Act that forbids FN to borrow money against the land or
house value of property on reserves ... they cannot get business
loans to operate on reserves ... it is legislated poverty.

Finally, if you really want to be a proud Canadian, be aware that
the Indian Act was the 'model' for Apartheid in South Africa -- it was
meant to keep FN 'held apart' from the rest of society so they could
not 'integrate' nor benefit if they did.

Its one thing to be stupid, its another to have no shame.

And this whole thread is the most offensive pile of racist
hatred that I have ever encountered.

Shame on all of you!

ps: edited for correct date that ANY FN could vote: 1960 ... FN could vote
since the 1920's but ONLY if they gave up all their rights!

pss: good info for those who find thinking painful: http://www.shannonthunderbird.com/indian_act.htm

possibly one of the most succinct descriptions I've read around here in a while - pretty much captures the plight of FN's people... and clearly, with foundation, labels you insensitive/uncaring/racist types for what you are.

 

[maxxx24]

Or why not just abolish the bands and empower FN people to live as regular Canadians do?

Because its not that simple. How would you propose to dismantle the Indian Act and all the fallout with it? Where would they live? Where would they go? Would every city and town welcome an influx of ppl? What land would they get if any? OK devide up each reserve between the members, who and how? And on and on and on. As shitty as the Indian Act is, if it was gone tomorrow, all the issues and problems that exist would multiply 10 fold. And the human rights issue with the Act-yes the Natives are the ward of the state-what then? All the Treaty issues? Sorry everyone who thinks otherwise, they are legal, but the Feds only deal on few of the items in them, at thier choosing.

 

[maxxx24]

empower? can we say Kelowna Accord? Even after the government transition, former Liberal PM Martin came forward with the private members bill to have the Kelowna Accord implemented. All 3 Opposition parties (Libs, NDP and Bloc) voted in favour... the Cons rejected it... on top of the budget cuts they made. Is it any wonder the "natives are restless".

The Kelowna Accord - 18 months of negotiations with First Nation leaders that the Conservatives, apparently, have no respect for... and no intentions to implement the signed agreements.

Exactly, and how can ppl not see these kinds of things as frustrating?

 

[he_loves_fat]

Because its not that simple. How would you propose to dismantle the Indian Act and all the fallout with it? Where would they live? Where would they go? Would every city and town welcome an influx of ppl? What land would they get if any? OK devide up each reserve between the members, who and how? And on and on and on. As shitty as the Indian Act is, if it was gone tomorrow, all the issues and problems that exist would multiply 10 fold. And the human rights issue with the Act-yes the Natives are the ward of the state-what then? All the Treaty issues? Sorry everyone who thinks otherwise, they are legal, but the Feds only deal on few of the items in them, at thier choosing.

Isn't it obvious? You dismantle the Indian Act first by declaring the absolute equality of FN people with all other Canadians. FN people would be subject to all rights AND responsibilities as expressed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Bands would sell their land, give a fair share to each of its members and then no longer exist. After that, all its former memeber could decide what to do with their share of the money. End of story.

 

[LonelyGhost]

Isn't it obvious? You dismantle the Indian Act first by declaring the absolute equality of FN people with all other Canadians. FN people would be subject to all rights AND responsibilities as expressed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Bands would sell their land, give a fair share to each of its members and then no longer exist. After that, all its former memeber could decide what to do with their share of the money. End of story.

and the US freed the slaves 200 years ago and look where a lot of
African-Americans are today ...

some have done 'well' by our standards, but many have not: do we
blame them for their problems or do we acknowledge that racism
is a problem -- many of the posts in this thread have demonstrated
that there is some truth to the 'lefty' rant about institutional racism.

It is NOT the cause of all the problems, but it certainly doesn't help.

If 'average' Canadians demonstrate these kinds of attitudes towards
First Nations, dismantling the Bands and tossing them money isn't
going to change one thing until our 'collective' attitude towards
Aboriginals changes.

 

[maxxx24]

Isn't it obvious? You dismantle the Indian Act first by declaring the absolute equality of FN people with all other Canadians. FN people would be subject to all rights AND responsibilities as expressed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Bands would sell their land, give a fair share to each of its members and then no longer exist. After that, all its former memeber could decide what to do with their share of the money. End of story.

Technically, all Canadians are equal and subject to the Charter along with the Indian Act. But in that though, for arguments sake, why would the Act have to be abolished to achieve that? Should'nt they be treated as ppl equally already? Over time, it has become a human rights issue, and that what many Canadians dont fully understand. It isnt always fist ponding, give me my Treaty rights, give me more money-its treat me as an equal, as a person.

Who would decide what the land is valued at? Would the rest of Canada accept so many individuals at one time receiving parcels of land? Who would buy the land? Why would the govt allow bands to sell the land that is no longer theirs if the Act is dissmantled? Why wouldnt they let them sell it? What about all the jobs of the hard working now that each band council has been broken? Or would they stay in place and how? And unemployemnt of non-FN ppl that worked on the reserves? Any businesses that the band owned, what about those? Its not as simple as you put it "END OF STORY" there are soooo many things covered in the Indian Act, and I sincerly doubt the any govt will ever touch getting rid of it, as there are so many issues that would arise. What about the cost to Canadians that have been spent over the yeras as a result of the ACT? The cost to discuss research getting rid of it? The questions are endless and the costs would be too-a hell of a lot more than just working out feaseable structues to address the cuurent problems and concerns.

 

[he_loves_fat]

and the US freed the slaves 200 years ago and look where a lot of
African-Americans are today ...

some have done 'well' by our standards, but many have not: do we
blame them for their problems or do we acknowledge that racism
is a problem -- many of the posts in this thread have demonstrated
that there is some truth to the 'lefty' rant about institutional racism.

It is NOT the cause of all the problems, but it certainly doesn't help.

If 'average' Canadians demonstrate these kinds of attitudes towards
First Nations, dismantling the Bands and tossing them money isn't
going to change one thing until our 'collective' attitude towards
Aboriginals changes.

Why should we not blame people for their own failures? If Black Americans live in poverty today, it is because they lack the drive and initiative to make something of themselves, not because their ancestors were slaves. The same can be said of people of every race - they fail because they lack drive and initiative.

Such would be the case with FN people if they were left to their own devices: some would fail and some would succeed. It is the way of the world. FN people are not little children - we should stop treating them as such.

 

[LaCreme]

we are a nation

sud = south, ie: southern US and south america.

I'm guessing LaCreme is a nation, like me.

yes !! me and JJinvan are a Nation if you reader dont agree with that ask HAPPYHUNTER07 to suck your cock because he is a racist ugly alian pig! ha ha ha i love ya jjinvan you are awesome !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[maxxx24]

Why should we not blame people for their own failures? If Black Americans live in poverty today, it is because they lack the drive and initiative to make something of themselves, not because their ancestors were slaves. The same can be said of people of every race - they fail because they lack drive and initiative.

Such would be the case with FN people if they were left to their own devices: some would fail and some would succeed. It is the way of the world. FN people are not little children - we should stop treating them as such.

So drive and initiative are to blame? So if any human fails its because of that? Well, there you go everyone, problem solved!

 

[he_loves_fat]

So drive and initiative are to blame? So if any human fails its because of that? Well, there you go everyone, problem solved!

The market dictates what people want. If someone fails in the market, it is because they were unwilling to change. The unwillingness stems from a lack of drive and initiative. In short, they wanted to fail.

They market determines and will continue to determine everything. But in this farcical magic-land of Canada, we (the taxpayers of Canada) continue to finance the world's largest living museum piece. You know what I'm talking about.

 

[LaCreme]

***My post is a little more out of frustration,

its stregthens the immune system, righ? What huge drain on society? Most Canadians think/feel that billions a year go to reserves and some how each and every dollar is pissed away. A miniscule amount is given-the bare minimum in some cases and even less in others. Then try to access all the programs and dollars that the Feds say are out there, next to impossible after each hurdle is cleared that is put in place. Look and see how much funding on a case by case basis that reserves get, better yet compare that to the transfer agreements that are in place accross the county for municipalities and towns, reserves receive waaaayyyy less. Most people turn the other cheeck and hope it will just go away, or the will all die, or assimilate which were the goals in the first place.The Feds dont give a shit, especially the Conservatives. And yeah, tax the Natives too, the majority of which are unemployed so as to add a miniscule amount in tax dollars. Paid for tuition aint as simple as just showing up and saying "hey Im an Indian-when does my first class start?" Many things are in place through each reserve and Federaly.

The fact is that the majority of politicians have no balls to address the issue properly, step up and take responsibilty for the conditions that they overwhelmingly have helped in creating (historically and currently). And yeah, Natives too have to take responsibility as well in a lot of areas. Its the Federal system and the Natives have to play by their rules. If anyones got an issue, talk to the Feds, they caused it in the first place, they created whats in place and are perpetuating it. Get a break down on the wonderful programs put in place, such as the reserve system, taking script, residential schools, access to legal counsel, half assed hosing, half assed infrastructure etc.

Anyone here would go through the roof if where they lived refused the bare essential services such as clean water. But for the sake of argument lets use the water issue-very high levels of contaminents and pollutants in many of the well water systems-with most studies being done by Health Canada, be damned though if they will even split costs to replace or repair the systems in most cases, and only when certain reserves have enough cash to do so. And yes, it is their responsibility based on agreements that are in place (Treaties arent the only legal documents that have been entered into over the years with the Feds believe it or not).

The majority of bands have been pushed to and over the breaking point for so many years on broken promises and obligations. They have to watch their ppl suffer and or die everyday. They are still human beings, whether most ppl like to think that or not. How much do you think they are supposed to take? All 10 inches in the ass apparently, and they should just shut up and stop complaing, becasue they have it oh so good. Most ppl ahve no clue and dont care to. Doing the blockades are what some of them feel are they only way to be heard, especially when its has been talked about fot the last few months. IIRC, a buch of farmers blocked traffic in a Canadian city. Dont recall them being hung for it-it was "good for them, they need to stand up for what they think is fair as farmers." Yeah no double standard there.

finaly someone who understand me.. fed dont give a shit..give a me job men.. like this i wont have to suck many cock for living. and feel sorry why usa banned me because my native job escorting for money please clear my file! please more and more frustration thread it make me feel better to reply and i hope someone will do something about it

 

[twoblues]

None of that was anybody's fault except the FNs. If FNs had the drive, initiative, and indeed the intelligence, they would have come to Europe and colonized England and France. But they didn't, and so became a subject culture for a time.

Well, it wasn't drive and initiative. More to do with: lack of domesticable animals, and a much longer North to South land mass as opposed to a East West land mass, lack of steel, etc...

See "Guns, Germs, & Steel" by Jared Diamond for a decent read. A little dry, but he makes some great points. Absolutely nothing to do with drive or intelligence.

 

[metoo113]

In my experience the people who fail put their fate in the hands of others. Just like the FN's do .

 

[jjinvan]

5. Finally, for all those 'free taxes' BS, it is horribly off-set by the Indian Act that forbids FN to borrow money against the land or house value of property on reserves ... they cannot get business
loans to operate on reserves ... it is legislated poverty.

Ok, points 1-4 you have bang on. I wonder if you agree that a big part of the problem is actually a small number of the FN people who are fleecing the rest?

For #5, do you really not understand WHY they can't borrow money against the land or the houses on the reserves?

If they removed that restriction things would VERY QUICKLY get a LOT worse.

 

[he_loves_fat]

Well, it wasn't drive and initiative. More to do with: lack of domesticable animals, and a much longer North to South land mass as opposed to a East West land mass, lack of steel, etc...

See "Guns, Germs, & Steel" by Jared Diamond for a decent read. A little dry, but he makes some great points. Absolutely nothing to do with drive or intelligence.

Each man fights his generations war with that generations weapons. The two weapons they were most sorely lacking were drive and intelligence. If they had either, they would have found a way to overcome the "Guns, Germs, & Steel."

 

[jjinvan]

Or why not just abolish the bands and empower FN people to live as regular Canadians do?

While this is actually probably the ONLY solution that will ever work, it would never be accepted.

The leaders of the bands have far to much to lose to ever allow this to happen, they are the ones raking in the cash and living in the huge mansions, don't forget.

 

[he_loves_fat]

While this is actually probably the ONLY solution that will ever work, it would never be accepted.

The leaders of the bands have far to much to lose to ever allow this to happen, they are the ones raking in the cash and living in the huge mansions, don't forget.

Then they will have to be disbanded by force.

 

[jjinvan]

empower? can we say Kelowna Accord? Even after the government transition, former Liberal PM Martin came forward with the private members bill to have the Kelowna Accord implemented. All 3 Opposition parties (Libs, NDP and Bloc) voted in favour... the Cons rejected it... on top of the budget cuts they made. Is it any wonder the "natives are restless".

The Kelowna Accord - 18 months of negotiations with First Nation leaders that the Conservatives, apparently, have no respect for... and no intentions to implement the signed agreements.

LOL, the Kelowna Accord.. how did I know you'd trot that out.

Maybe you better look a little closer at what actually was agreed to.

It was about as finalized, detailed and practical as Dion's legislation to implement Kyoto that the liberal government implemented over the 8 or so years that he was environment minister after he signed that deal.