It wouldnt cost much....harper will soon have privatized jails like in america....so putting people in jail becomes a business ran by corporations....
C36 Merged thread, everything goes here
- Thread starter Banger77
- Start date
is there a law
Is there a law requiring websites to keep ip addresses?
You have to keep records for tax purposes and phone companies keep call records and email companies like google apparently have to keep records as well. They like to keep records forever apparently
.
I was just wondering if keeping ip addresses is a legal requirement or is it something sites just do?
Is there a law requiring websites to keep ip addresses?
You have to keep records for tax purposes and phone companies keep call records and email companies like google apparently have to keep records as well. They like to keep records forever apparently
.I was just wondering if keeping ip addresses is a legal requirement or is it something sites just do?
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or legal expert, nor am I am expert on the internet, but this is my understanding:
There is no law in Canada requiring a website to store IP addresses. The nature of the internet is such that web servers must automatically collect a visitor’s IP address and pretty much all will keep that info for at least a period of time, for numerous reasons.
For an internet forum running vBulletin - just in case you are specifically curious about that - I believe the default situation is for IP addresses to be permanently stored for each forum post and for the IP address used when a user registers for the site. I know when I moderated a site running vBulletin it was very useful to be able to ask admin to do an IP check on a new member against past banned members or in order to make sure people didn't have multiple accounts. I have no idea about visits when one is not logged in. There is a way for site admin to delete all the stored IP addresses, however, doing so does have many drawbacks.
An IP address alone doesn't identify an individual, but can be mapped back to a device with help from ISP records.
In case my speculation on your reason behind asking this question is correct, I'm not very clear on how difficult it currently is for law enforcement to obtain info from an ISP or from a website owner (plus with the latter we also get into the issue of where the site is hosted), but regardless, LE likely have far more important issues to deal with than whatever you are doing online, unless it's evidence of a very serious crime. I would personally die of shock if Canadian LE starts trying to compel websites to give up info like IP addresses simply because someone, say, wrote a review of a consenting adult escort or visited an escort site, (let alone try/be able to use that info to charge anyone). And it becomes even more improbable in the situation of websites that aren't hosted in Canada. I think many people are being far too paranoid and worrying about things that would be way too much time/effort/expense for a minor charge - if they do start going after pooners it's just going to be in person when they see someone pick up a girl on the street or possibly when they visit certain massage parlors. (Maybe some sting operations on places like Backpage with fake underage girls but seeing underage SPs was already illegal).
There is no law in Canada requiring a website to store IP addresses. The nature of the internet is such that web servers must automatically collect a visitor’s IP address and pretty much all will keep that info for at least a period of time, for numerous reasons.
For an internet forum running vBulletin - just in case you are specifically curious about that - I believe the default situation is for IP addresses to be permanently stored for each forum post and for the IP address used when a user registers for the site. I know when I moderated a site running vBulletin it was very useful to be able to ask admin to do an IP check on a new member against past banned members or in order to make sure people didn't have multiple accounts. I have no idea about visits when one is not logged in. There is a way for site admin to delete all the stored IP addresses, however, doing so does have many drawbacks.
An IP address alone doesn't identify an individual, but can be mapped back to a device with help from ISP records.
In case my speculation on your reason behind asking this question is correct, I'm not very clear on how difficult it currently is for law enforcement to obtain info from an ISP or from a website owner (plus with the latter we also get into the issue of where the site is hosted), but regardless, LE likely have far more important issues to deal with than whatever you are doing online, unless it's evidence of a very serious crime. I would personally die of shock if Canadian LE starts trying to compel websites to give up info like IP addresses simply because someone, say, wrote a review of a consenting adult escort or visited an escort site, (let alone try/be able to use that info to charge anyone). And it becomes even more improbable in the situation of websites that aren't hosted in Canada. I think many people are being far too paranoid and worrying about things that would be way too much time/effort/expense for a minor charge - if they do start going after pooners it's just going to be in person when they see someone pick up a girl on the street or possibly when they visit certain massage parlors. (Maybe some sting operations on places like Backpage with fake underage girls but seeing underage SPs was already illegal).
Anal sex is not against the law. But it does have a weird law. It is illegal if one or both of the partners are under 18. But if the people are married and doing it in private then they don't have to be over 18. Plus obviously if one of the partners is not consenting it's illegal, like any sex act. It's interesting, because anyone who is 14 or older, whether married or not, can consent to most forms of "non-exploitative" sexual conduct, including vaginal intercourse, without risking criminal consequences. On the other hand, no one under 18 (aside from the aforementioned caveat) can agree to anal intercourse without risking prosecution. That difference has been found by courts to be against the Charter, but how often does this issue come up and how much does anyone care? Almost never and not much. So the law remains. Until the recent changes, paying for sex with anyone under the age of 18 was illegal. Now paying for sex is illegal period. I can understand paying for sex with someone under 18 being viewed as "exploitative" but it enrages me that paying for sex with anyone is now considered inherently "exploitative".
And you're correct that the term "rape" is not used in the criminal code, "sexual assault" is.
I don't think that's the issue here, he was asking specifically that people no longer link to reviews, whether from here on PERB or not.
^This. I think the problem is that the new advertising law is vague and people don't understand it or know if it will be enforced, so advertising sites are trying to play it extra safe rather than risk getting shut down etc. My initial assumption was that the law, as NOW appears to suggest, simply meant that SPs had to submit their own ads and that its intended goal was to prevent "pimps" or handlers from posting the ads. Not that websites were no longer allowed to host any ads for sexual services. But I don't know what I was reading, that interpretation seems totally wrong, as the Department of Justice's Technical Paper on Bill C-36 says:
That sounds pretty definitive and like PERB is being smart by being cautious. I still don't really get how linking to reviews is inherently equivalent to advertising sexual services, but, hey, I like PERB and don't want it to get shut down so I respect that. I just wanted to understand (and to alert others who may not know about the new rules).
i'll paraphrase an expression that some of the ladies are fond of throwing out regularly...
'his board, his rules!'
'nuff said?
'his board, his rules!'
'nuff said?
A general reply with the focus back to the original thread.
Side note: Thank you Violet for bouncing sodomy as a generally illegal act.
I agree that the likelihood of being convicted or fined from posting a review seems unlikely but not for the posted reasons.
Those that say it's hard work and too difficult for the LE to connect the dots are thinking of it as an person by person type of investigation. You need to think bulk. A single subpena for the logs and profile information from perb,merb, and terb will net the LE close to a 250k user records. Once you par it down to those profiles who review in any section, you get maybe 2-3 thousand profile records. Along with those records comes their IP addresses. You then organize those IP addresses to those that belong to the major Canadian carriers (there are specific blocks of IP assigned to each carrier). Send a single subpena to each carrier asking for records of their customers who were using matching IP address.
It's not that difficult. With a few database queries and 3-6 subpoenas you can get the names, physical address, email address and evidence to fine or prosecute 2-3 thousand reviewers. It's lazy and ultra effective. The next step is simply deciding who to make an example of.
The closest example that people can relate to would probably be online piracy. You commit online piracy, odds are you are not going to get caught. But using the same technique as stated above, the LE can build a case around certain individuals to make an example of, just like online piracy. Do people really want to play the lottery in becoming the headline John to prove Bill C-35. Even if the case isn't successful, they'll have their name sullied in their community forever. At the very least how many pooners would be scared straight if they get an email from the LE saying "We know what you're doing and it is illegal under Bill C-35".
So the question is will you be smiling in your front page photo under the headline "Bragging Pervert Gets Knicked"
Side note: Thank you Violet for bouncing sodomy as a generally illegal act.
I agree that the likelihood of being convicted or fined from posting a review seems unlikely but not for the posted reasons.
Those that say it's hard work and too difficult for the LE to connect the dots are thinking of it as an person by person type of investigation. You need to think bulk. A single subpena for the logs and profile information from perb,merb, and terb will net the LE close to a 250k user records. Once you par it down to those profiles who review in any section, you get maybe 2-3 thousand profile records. Along with those records comes their IP addresses. You then organize those IP addresses to those that belong to the major Canadian carriers (there are specific blocks of IP assigned to each carrier). Send a single subpena to each carrier asking for records of their customers who were using matching IP address.
It's not that difficult. With a few database queries and 3-6 subpoenas you can get the names, physical address, email address and evidence to fine or prosecute 2-3 thousand reviewers. It's lazy and ultra effective. The next step is simply deciding who to make an example of.
The closest example that people can relate to would probably be online piracy. You commit online piracy, odds are you are not going to get caught. But using the same technique as stated above, the LE can build a case around certain individuals to make an example of, just like online piracy. Do people really want to play the lottery in becoming the headline John to prove Bill C-35. Even if the case isn't successful, they'll have their name sullied in their community forever. At the very least how many pooners would be scared straight if they get an email from the LE saying "We know what you're doing and it is illegal under Bill C-35".
So the question is will you be smiling in your front page photo under the headline "Bragging Pervert Gets Knicked"
Registered domain owners, and/or hosting services for terb, merb, and perb.
If you're thinking that the tld .cc would be outside the jurisdiction of the Canadian courts I wouldn't be too sure of that. The Canadian courts in general do not hold hosting companies liable for the contents of their servers, in many ways it does this to encourage their cooperation in prosecuting online crimes. Just because the servers are not in Canada, or maintained by Canadian companies, doesn't mean hosting companies won't cooperate with an investigation, especially when it's their best interest, or least headache to.
If nothing else take a look at the number of times the Canadian government has requested sensitive user information from Google, Yahoo, Facebook, and Microsoft. That should be a pretty good indication of how the possible route the courts and authorities can take.
Operation Flea Collar did not use the techniques I stated. They did not use the contents and reviews of the forum as evidence. They ran a sting operation using BigDoggie.net as it's main source, which failed pretty hilariously due to their lack of actual insight into the culture. But it is important to note that arrest warrants were sent out. For Canadians something like that on your record can cause problems in employment, and travel, if nothing else, their names still gets published in the news.
Sorry if I am being redundant as I haven't been on here in quite some time but ( and this is just my opinion), there are a couple things to this question that I feel people are getting a little too worried about.
First off, unless someone gets got with a minor or a lady proven to be trafficked, I don't think anyone will ever see prison time and surely not the maximum. Being with a regular independent SP who is doing this of her own free will and is of the age of consent will never result in jail time, imo. Look, I'm no lawyer but common sense dictates that no judge in his right mind would risk having the thing overturned by the higher court and give ammunition to the advocacy groups to get this law fast-tracked through the Supreme Court of Canada. Fwiw, Sweden has never sent anyone to prison for this and they have had the law for 15 years.
Now, the first response to this will be "what if LE coerces the SP to give up her client?" Highly unlikely in that LE has no leverage on the provider as what she is doing has been deemed "legal".Also, the majority of SP's are too invested in their business to flush it down the drain "outing" a client. It would result in losing everything they built up.
Second, and more pertinent to the topic, reviews could be read by LE to gather intel but as for evidence, I don't really see it if clients do not mention money. It is really that simple because the only thing that breaks the law is "sex for money". Nothing else matters but I would probably say it would be wise to keep some explicit details out of there. Honestly guys, I don't think a complete "play by play" is necessary. Carefully worded reviews can give the rest of us a good idea of what the SP provides without making it some "letter to Penthouse". Where this may be different is in the fetish side of things, of course but we have to be careful of what explicit terms we use. I'm not sure there is a cut and dried answer to this part.
Third, as far as warrants, subpoenas and LE tracking our every move, I know it's somewhat scary but that has to do with not knowing for sure, imo. I'm somewhat doubtful LE will be devoting a lot of time and resources on that end of it for individual SP's (indy's) and the average client. I truly believe they need big stings and busts to make their efforts worthwhile such as going after certain agencies that may or may not be forcing young ladies or something of that ilk. They will likely also be targetting what they always have and that is "street prostitution" and the clients that are in public. Now, they may set up some fake ad on BP or CL or something to lure in guys like the Dateline stings but we should already be smart enough to sniff out the fakes on those sites. All in all, LE will go after the lowest hanging fruit with the limited resources they have but again, and I can't stress this enough, DO NOT TALK ABOUT MONEY.
Last and sorry about rambling, it is scary and some guys have a great deal to lose when faced with charges and a criminal record and all of that. I don't make light of that. I don't consider this "no big deal". It is a huge deal for many but the decision is up to each individual. If you feel you need to quit the hobby, then quit, period. Don't waffle back and forth, make the decision and stand by it. If, however, you wish to continue, then keep your wits about you, slow down your roll and think before jumping in or texting about rates, menu, etc. Be smart and patient and be prepared to not always get everything you want. The odd time you will be dissappointed because certain specific services aren't offered, yes, but it isn't the end of the world when it happens. Put it in the memory vault and move on. Seriously, this profession has been around forever and will always be around. 90% of the stuff was already illegal and we never worried but now they have targetted the client. It won't work in the long run and we will weather the storm, of that I am sure. We always do.
First off, unless someone gets got with a minor or a lady proven to be trafficked, I don't think anyone will ever see prison time and surely not the maximum. Being with a regular independent SP who is doing this of her own free will and is of the age of consent will never result in jail time, imo. Look, I'm no lawyer but common sense dictates that no judge in his right mind would risk having the thing overturned by the higher court and give ammunition to the advocacy groups to get this law fast-tracked through the Supreme Court of Canada. Fwiw, Sweden has never sent anyone to prison for this and they have had the law for 15 years.
Now, the first response to this will be "what if LE coerces the SP to give up her client?" Highly unlikely in that LE has no leverage on the provider as what she is doing has been deemed "legal".Also, the majority of SP's are too invested in their business to flush it down the drain "outing" a client. It would result in losing everything they built up.
Second, and more pertinent to the topic, reviews could be read by LE to gather intel but as for evidence, I don't really see it if clients do not mention money. It is really that simple because the only thing that breaks the law is "sex for money". Nothing else matters but I would probably say it would be wise to keep some explicit details out of there. Honestly guys, I don't think a complete "play by play" is necessary. Carefully worded reviews can give the rest of us a good idea of what the SP provides without making it some "letter to Penthouse". Where this may be different is in the fetish side of things, of course but we have to be careful of what explicit terms we use. I'm not sure there is a cut and dried answer to this part.
Third, as far as warrants, subpoenas and LE tracking our every move, I know it's somewhat scary but that has to do with not knowing for sure, imo. I'm somewhat doubtful LE will be devoting a lot of time and resources on that end of it for individual SP's (indy's) and the average client. I truly believe they need big stings and busts to make their efforts worthwhile such as going after certain agencies that may or may not be forcing young ladies or something of that ilk. They will likely also be targetting what they always have and that is "street prostitution" and the clients that are in public. Now, they may set up some fake ad on BP or CL or something to lure in guys like the Dateline stings but we should already be smart enough to sniff out the fakes on those sites. All in all, LE will go after the lowest hanging fruit with the limited resources they have but again, and I can't stress this enough, DO NOT TALK ABOUT MONEY.
Last and sorry about rambling, it is scary and some guys have a great deal to lose when faced with charges and a criminal record and all of that. I don't make light of that. I don't consider this "no big deal". It is a huge deal for many but the decision is up to each individual. If you feel you need to quit the hobby, then quit, period. Don't waffle back and forth, make the decision and stand by it. If, however, you wish to continue, then keep your wits about you, slow down your roll and think before jumping in or texting about rates, menu, etc. Be smart and patient and be prepared to not always get everything you want. The odd time you will be dissappointed because certain specific services aren't offered, yes, but it isn't the end of the world when it happens. Put it in the memory vault and move on. Seriously, this profession has been around forever and will always be around. 90% of the stuff was already illegal and we never worried but now they have targetted the client. It won't work in the long run and we will weather the storm, of that I am sure. We always do.
Interestingly enough I was recently communicating with a local SP about this. She is a very reliable SP with a good reputation and has been in the business several years now so I consider her someone who knows the biz.
She was telling me that she is seriously considering starting her own "talent agency." She would advertise that she is a talent agent for men wanting to get into the adult film industry and offer the do an "interview and screen test" for $$$. She told me she has 2 regular clients, one a very well known defense lawyer and another a judge, who told her that if done right it would likely not be considered a problem under the new law. Supposedly she just needs to basically come up with a company name and bank account. If she is not incorporating it, which there is no legal need to do (operate as a sole proprietorship), there is negligible cost to do this. She told me the lawyer even gave her advice on formulating a "release form".
Now I know there are those on this site with way more legal knowledge and experience than I and know way more about the new bill. I'm not saying this is a good idea or would work but one would think that if a pretty high priced local attorney and a judge think it would work, maybe it would.
She was telling me that she is seriously considering starting her own "talent agency." She would advertise that she is a talent agent for men wanting to get into the adult film industry and offer the do an "interview and screen test" for $$$. She told me she has 2 regular clients, one a very well known defense lawyer and another a judge, who told her that if done right it would likely not be considered a problem under the new law. Supposedly she just needs to basically come up with a company name and bank account. If she is not incorporating it, which there is no legal need to do (operate as a sole proprietorship), there is negligible cost to do this. She told me the lawyer even gave her advice on formulating a "release form".
Now I know there are those on this site with way more legal knowledge and experience than I and know way more about the new bill. I'm not saying this is a good idea or would work but one would think that if a pretty high priced local attorney and a judge think it would work, maybe it would.
(NOT) Seeing an SP in a MOTEL - Paranoia Kicks In!
This could be filed under sheer paranoia, but I just don't want to risk anything.
An SP has been on my list although her reviews don't reveal much, except one reviewer who raved about her. I always go well reputed/reviewed ones but somehow I found the courage to text her, got the response soon.
We texted back and forth about services and timing. Her responses consisted mostly of 'yes' or 'no'. Finally I asked her about her location. She texted me the address and the name of a ........... motel!!
For me it was the WTF!! moment. Right away I knew this is not for me. I struggled with the idea of pulling the plug and then I did and texted her, cancelling the appointment. (I have yet to hear from her). I have safely seen Marissa Fox in a hotel and Melissa Lane in a motel but they are both well reviewed. This particular SP doesn't have many reviews and she is in a motel AND the BIGGEST reason is the new bill. I somehow feel safer in incalls.
Who knows what kind of surveillance that place could be under. Again, it could be me being overly paranoid, but when you have a family, a great job, last thing you wanna c is yourself, face down on the hood of a police car and your hands behind ur back in cuffs, on the 6 o'clock news, and your name on some website set up for "shaming the johns.".
Paranoia? Overthinking? Probably. But I am sure I am not the only one going through it.
I just thought I should share it with fellow PERB-etarians!
How times have changed!!!
T8E
This could be filed under sheer paranoia, but I just don't want to risk anything.
An SP has been on my list although her reviews don't reveal much, except one reviewer who raved about her. I always go well reputed/reviewed ones but somehow I found the courage to text her, got the response soon.
We texted back and forth about services and timing. Her responses consisted mostly of 'yes' or 'no'. Finally I asked her about her location. She texted me the address and the name of a ........... motel!!
For me it was the WTF!! moment. Right away I knew this is not for me. I struggled with the idea of pulling the plug and then I did and texted her, cancelling the appointment. (I have yet to hear from her). I have safely seen Marissa Fox in a hotel and Melissa Lane in a motel but they are both well reviewed. This particular SP doesn't have many reviews and she is in a motel AND the BIGGEST reason is the new bill. I somehow feel safer in incalls.
Who knows what kind of surveillance that place could be under. Again, it could be me being overly paranoid, but when you have a family, a great job, last thing you wanna c is yourself, face down on the hood of a police car and your hands behind ur back in cuffs, on the 6 o'clock news, and your name on some website set up for "shaming the johns.".
Paranoia? Overthinking? Probably. But I am sure I am not the only one going through it.
I just thought I should share it with fellow PERB-etarians!
How times have changed!!!
T8E
Exactly
The law sates that you can not post sex for money.... so ladies posting these kind of ads will face problems with the new law.
Any sites that allow these kind of ads should be avoided by the ladies and the men
Your paranoia doesn't actually have to kick in to this extent until December 6, which is the date the new law actually comes into force. Until then, if you are paying for sex with a consenting adult, you are still a legal upstanding citizen and NOT (per Peter MacKay) a criminal pervert.
Funny that this thread showed up today. I was in a similar situation. Booked with an SP that I had a difficult time in finding anything on her with regards to reviews and such. She was in a hotel which had me nervous, that fucking lobby thing!!! She informed me that there were outside discrete entrances to the rooms in the back. I felt better about that, but as I poured her a glass of wine, she said my hands were shaking. And they were. Not so much that I was nervous about the hour or so ahead, but it was the whole hotel-c36 thing running through my mind still. Long story short, all was well that ended well. We enjoyed the moment, but the thought never left. Post Dec 6th? Who knows.
Review to come later..... This was only two hours ago
Review to come later..... This was only two hours ago
Parking, discrete or non discrete, would be least of my concern.Re : hotel / motel rendezvous:
Discrete parking could be a concern.
000-000
I would just hate to have my face parked on the front page of a newspaper.
Motels are better than hotels. Most motel rooms have their own entrance and a parking spot right in front of the door.
As long as you look like you are there for a reason nobody cares. If you try not to look suspicious....that is when you do look suspicious.
As long as you look like you are there for a reason nobody cares. If you try not to look suspicious....that is when you do look suspicious.
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It's just going to shrink the industry enormously. This industry is enormous, so much bigger than PERB or the other review boards. Just look at how many adverts there are on all the sites combined and multiply that by 3 to get an idea of how many guys are pooning every day... multiply by 7 to account for frequency (ie assuming a guy sees one girl a week). Then compare that to active perbites. MOST guys who do this are not online here. Many don't even know about this stuff. And those guys will only know what they hear on the news. Those guys are going to drop out. Another healthy dose of informed guys will - primarily guys with stuff to lose, like families or reputational jobs, etc. The pooner pool will shrink drastically. Shortly after the SP pool will shrink drastically, along with slightly lower rates but not a lot because many escorts would rather quit than go lower. There's a pride thing inherent in determining your worth and in an industry where self confidence is pretty vital, dropping your rates feels bad man. So rates will even out - a lot of SPs will leave, which will allow those who stay to keep the same rates, but they will probably have to tighten their belts and get by on seeing less guys. I think 'specials' will be a lot more common as ladies have to adapt to the new market.
It will become a game of business. Who you know, who your clientelle is. Rates will play into it, and I do think there will be a reduction, but that won't be enough to stay in business. The guys who stick will be the ballsy ones, a lot of single guys. The girls who stick will be the ones with exceptional business models and established clientele. Neither will be enough alone as even regular dates recycle every so often as people move, find relationships, change financial situations.
It will become a game of business. Who you know, who your clientelle is. Rates will play into it, and I do think there will be a reduction, but that won't be enough to stay in business. The guys who stick will be the ballsy ones, a lot of single guys. The girls who stick will be the ones with exceptional business models and established clientele. Neither will be enough alone as even regular dates recycle every so often as people move, find relationships, change financial situations.
FTFY..
For the sake of edification:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discreet
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrete
in my vast reading career to date, i somehow have managed to miss that one!! :doh:
thank you :thumb:
