Autistic Child Refused Entry Into Indigo Store

Miss Hunter

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Aug 30, 2013
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What next? Throwing elderly people with COPD out of stores because they have trouble breathing with masks on?

we as a society should be more accommodating to those with special needs. If you see someone with special needs not wearing a mask, just keep your distance. They should be able to get out and enjoy life a bit too.
 

Jethro Bodine

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Feb 17, 2009
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Beverly Hills. In the Kitchen eatin' vittles.
What an upside down world we are living in where an autistic child’s mother is being shamed for trying to take him to a bookstore.
It is an upside down world being ravaged by a dedly virus that has forced us all to make significant changes to our lives.
I think not being able to take one's kid, autistic or not, to a book store, pales in comparison to those who have lost lives, loved ones, businesses, livelihoods, homes, etc during the pandemic. She can take him to a book store in 6 months.
 

appleomac

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Aug 9, 2010
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What an upside down world we are living in where an autistic child’s mother is being shamed for trying to take him to a bookstore.
I guess what comes around goes around? By immediately going to the media, isn't this mother trying to shame Indigo's? I don't know if Indigo's has made any public statement about this situation, but I would imagine, had she taken it up with Indigo's Corporate Head Office, they probably would've sent her some sort of conciliatory gesture (gift cards or perhaps a special invite/event to visit the store with her child to give said child a "proper Indigo experience" maybe off hours or after this pandemic has passed or whatever). Most large companies have plenty of discretionary means to "make things right" and contrary to what you seem to believe, most people and companies are very accommodating, in normal times. Unfortunately, at present, we are not in "normal times", and therefore (rightly or wrongly) Indigo's (it would appear) have decided at the moment to treat everyone the same - no mask, no service.
 
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lukom

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I guess what comes around goes around? By immediately going to the media, isn't this mother trying to shame Indigo's? I don't know if Indigo's has made any public statement about this situation, but I would imagine, had she taken it up with Indigo's Corporate Head Office, they probably would've sent her some sort of conciliatory gesture (gift cards or perhaps a special invite/event to visit the store with her child to give said child a "proper Indigo experience" maybe off hours or after this pandemic has passed or whatever). Most large companies have plenty of discretionary means to "make things right" and contrary to what you seem to believe, most people and companies are very accommodating, in normal times. Unfortunately, at present, we are not in "normal times", and therefore (rightly or wrongly) Indigo's (it would appear) have decided at the moment to treat everyone the same - no mask, no service.
I have a relative with autism. Long story short over the summer we were able to request an off hours arrangementfor him at another place of business, and they were more than happy to work around that. My aunt has always been proactive like that and even keeps documentation on her in times when shes needed to skip the lineups. People who have children with autism generally know better, and know how to have a plan in place for outings. I don't know what happened in this mother's case.
 

Miss Hunter

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I think its a good thing she took a stand. her son has a medical exemption from his Dr. Im sure other people with medical issues who cant wear masks are interested in seeing how this goes.

If it was a case of an average healthy person yelling about their rights, Id say it was as simple as just put the fucking mask on or stay the fuck out of the store. I hate wearing masks myself, but their store, their rules so I wear it. But there should be exceptions made in certain cases. I don't think one autistic child in a bookstore is a huge threat to society's health.
 
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nwtl

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Aug 24, 2016
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"Rights", for lack of a better term, have a tendency to intersect. And it makes these types of scenarios rather complicated. As an example, "no shirt, no service" - is that an example of discrimination? Technically it is. But I don't think anyone has issue with a restaurant owner or store owner having the right to refuse service to someone based on them being topless! "Rights" do not simply exist for individuals - a business has long had the "right" to refuse service, on most grounds. Notwithstanding any medical exemptions (and I don't even know what that means or entails) that does not necessarily mean a business has to change it's "no mask, no service" policy during Covid. Keep in mind, if the medical exemption means you don't have to wear a mask, that does not automatically mean the medical exemption creates an obligation for every business to allow customers into their stores, if the store has a "no mask, no service" policy! Again, it's alot more complicated than "but I have a doctor's note!" People seem to think that Indigo has to respect the right of "this" potential customer or "that" potential customer - most people forget that Indigo also has to consider the "rights" of their other customers, their employees, etc. The situation is alot more complex than one kid with autism that can't wear a mask.
Having grounds for a claim of discrimination is not the same as a pre-determined 'win' ruling for it. But they are entitled to sue.
Being exempt of mask wearing is not a pass to enter all places without a mask either, no one said that.

1. Discrimination is valid for inherent conditions / characters you cannot easily change about yourself. Being shirtless is not one of them. Being autistic, mute, a certain sex, a certain race, a certain height or age, or asthmatic, are, for contrast. You can't recover from being short, or being being autistic.

2. Discrimination claims are only valid if the concern at hand does not have a strong / plausible reliance on the characteristic being cited as reason for selectivity. For example, you shouldn't be denied to be a phone line customer support agent because you are just too short - that is grounds for a discrimination claim - but you may be lawfully refused if you are a mute, although even that is now being challenged because technology has enabled new possibilities.

3. No one is claiming an exemption means the store, as private business and premises, is required to let exempt persons in. But actions have consequences and we all weigh our options and outcomes for purpose of decision making.

There are expectations of service to the public by businesses. If they offer the same service(s) to all others and the grounds on which you are refused has no bearing on that service or business, and in particular, if they refuse service to you citing a categorical reason, if that reason is a characteristic or property that you cannot easily change about yourself, then the store may be open to claims / damages, while it is their choice to refuse. Again, entitlement to a claim does not mean you always win the claim. Balances of rights come to play.

Freedoms and rights come with responsibilities. Being allowed to do or allowed to refuse to do something, may be your decision, but may also come with consequences or claims from others. It is a balance every person in this system considers in every action they take, daily. This helps the society remain more civil. Just like other rights and freedoms, such as freedom of expression for example. You aren't supposed to be punished just for saying whatever you like to say, but if what you say causes injury to a particular someone, they are equally entitled to sue you for it and claim damages, for example for libel.

Being autistic plays no significant role in browsing a bookstore for books, and the kid wasn't known to actually have covid, but if the store owner specifically just doesn't like the autistic unmasked kid personally, or if the kid or dad was an asshole in how dad treat a staff member for example, or if the kid actually has covid, and one of these is why the store does not let them in, no grounds to claim discrimination.

Yes, the situation is more complicated, but not because it's just one kid versus many scared people, but because nuance in law and balancing of everyone's rights.
 
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nwtl

daffodil fairy
Aug 24, 2016
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I guess what comes around goes around? By immediately going to the media, isn't this mother trying to shame Indigo's? I don't know if Indigo's has made any public statement about this situation, but I would imagine, had she taken it up with Indigo's Corporate Head Office, they probably would've sent her some sort of conciliatory gesture (gift cards or perhaps a special invite/event to visit the store with her child to give said child a "proper Indigo experience" maybe off hours or after this pandemic has passed or whatever). Most large companies have plenty of discretionary means to "make things right" and contrary to what you seem to believe, most people and companies are very accommodating, in normal times. Unfortunately, at present, we are not in "normal times", and therefore (rightly or wrongly) Indigo's (it would appear) have decided at the moment to treat everyone the same - no mask, no service.
I don't like this logic any more than I booking my anniversary dinner in a restaurant and receiving shit food and service, but then they offering me a full refund and an extra gift card too thinking they fixed it and did me a favour too.

Not saying I know the intention of this parent in this case, but not everyone is happy just by getting some free shit or credits. Some actually stand for principles.
 
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appleomac

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I don't like this logic any more than I booking my anniversary dinner in a restaurant and receiving shit food and service, but then they offering me a full refund and an extra gift card too thinking they fixed it and did me a favour too.

Not saying I know the intention of this parent in this case, but not everyone is happy just by getting some free shit or credits. Some actually stand for principles.
LOL! If you had a bad experience at a restaurant and they gave you a full refund, what more can they do??? They can't get in the DeLorean, go back in time and make you un-eat the crappy food! LOL Even if you were to go to small claims court and sue the restaurant after they gave you a full refund, a judge would politely tell you to go pound sand! Contrary to US style litigation, Canadian courts almost always limit remedies in civil tort matters to make an aggrieved party whole - Canadian courts rarely issue what are known as punitive damages, unlike in the US where they LOVE punitive damages. Long story short, if a crappy meal leads to a restaurant owner giving you all your money back and then some - and you still have a problem with that - you're the problem, not the restaurant! LOL
 

nwtl

daffodil fairy
Aug 24, 2016
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LOL! If you had a bad experience at a restaurant and they gave you a full refund, what more can they do??? They can't get in the DeLorean, go back in time and make you un-eat the crappy food! LOL Even if you were to go to small claims court and sue the restaurant after they gave you a full refund, a judge would politely tell you to go pound sand! Contrary to US style litigation, Canadian courts almost always limit remedies in civil tort matters to make an aggrieved party whole - Canadian courts rarely issue what are known as punitive damages, unlike in the US where they LOVE punitive damages. Long story short, if a crappy meal leads to a restaurant owner giving you all your money back and then some - and you still have a problem with that - you're the problem, not the restaurant! LOL
You answered your own question.
 

Lo-ki

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Jul 18, 2011
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Check your closet..:)
What an upside down world we are living in where an autistic child’s mother is being shamed for trying to take him to a bookstore.
This is only the beginning.......wait and see how many place will refuse you entry until your BILL GATE chip can be scan to see if your vaccines are up to date and your credit is good.
 
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PuntMeister

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Jul 13, 2003
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This is only the beginning.......wait and see how many place will refuse you entry until your BILL GATE chip can be scan to see if your vaccines are up to date and your credit is good.
eeeewww, that’s scary!
 

g eazy

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Feb 15, 2018
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You think random people wearing cloth masks with zero education of how to properly wear them, and dispose or sterilize them is helping?

Hey..Do cloth masks even stop virus particles?

Why is there no proper biohazard disposal for covid PPE?
I guess I am one of these "random people" you speak of that has not had formal education on properly wearing a mask, and disposing/washing them. To give you my experience, I put it on over my nose and seal the perimeter of the mask against my face as best as I can. I try to be mindful about not touching the outside of the mask when I have it on. I have about five cloth masks that goes into the wash cycle after one use. (bear with me, I'll eventually get to the point) Do I know if cloth masks stop virus particles? No, I do not. Do I think there is some non-zero chance that masks are more effective as a prevention method than no mask? Absolutely. If it helps you understand my perspective, that is how I view climate change as well.

I don't have to have 100% understanding of everything in this world to justify my actions. I am comfortable with a level of practicality and a certain level of trust in my family, friends, employer/employees, and yes, government (but definitely not PERB reviews). It is not at all practical to challenge every minute detail that someone offers. To do so is extremely exhausting and it eats away at your faith in others, and humanity in general. There is a time and place for it, but challenging public health authority is not where I choose to focus my limited energy and effort these days. I'm not saying these "paranoid" people don't add value to society just because they question everything, they play a very important role in keeping community (but generally speaking, the world) honest. Edward Snowden, among others, came out from the other end of the rabbit hole and contributed something meaningful. But the matter of "question everything", for most people, is an extreme burden that takes away from the biggest joys of being a human IMO, which is the connections that we have with each other.

As for the matter of the autistic child and his mother, both her and Indigo are within their right to do what they did. If she prioritizes her child going to a bookstore over the health of the child and/or others, she can make her case all she wants. We all need to remember just because we disagree with someone's opinion, it doesn't make them wrong/us right. There are few absolutes in this world.
 

justwannahavefun

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I guess I am one of these "random people" you speak of that has not had formal education on properly wearing a mask, and disposing/washing them. To give you my experience, I put it on over my nose and seal the perimeter of the mask against my face as best as I can. I try to be mindful about not touching the outside of the mask when I have it on. I have about five cloth masks that goes into the wash cycle after one use. (bear with me, I'll eventually get to the point) Do I know if cloth masks stop virus particles? No, I do not. Do I think there is some non-zero chance that masks are more effective as a prevention method than no mask? Absolutely. If it helps you understand my perspective, that is how I view climate change as well.

I don't have to have 100% understanding of everything in this world to justify my actions. I am comfortable with a level of practicality and a certain level of trust in my family, friends, employer/employees, and yes, government (but definitely not PERB reviews). It is not at all practical to challenge every minute detail that someone offers. To do so is extremely exhausting and it eats away at your faith in others, and humanity in general. There is a time and place for it, but challenging public health authority is not where I choose to focus my limited energy and effort these days. I'm not saying these "paranoid" people don't add value to society just because they question everything, they play a very important role in keeping community (but generally speaking, the world) honest. Edward Snowden, among others, came out from the other end of the rabbit hole and contributed something meaningful. But the matter of "question everything", for most people, is an extreme burden that takes away from the biggest joys of being a human IMO, which is the connections that we have with each other.

As for the matter of the autistic child and his mother, both her and Indigo are within their right to do what they did. If she prioritizes her child going to a bookstore over the health of the child and/or others, she can make her case all she wants. We all need to remember just because we disagree with someone's opinion, it doesn't make them wrong/us right. There are few absolutes in this world.
This is exactly how I feel and I could not have worded this any better. And like you said, while there is no real proof that masks work, there is no proof that they don't.
Come into my business without a mask, you won't get in....medical exemption or not.
 
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Cock Throppled

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Upstairs
What an upside down world we are living in where an autistic child’s mother is being shamed for trying to take him to a bookstore.
It's because she is the irresponsible one.

I know a couple of people with kids on the autistic spectrum, and they don't take the kids ANYWHERE wthout a lot of planning and thought, let alone to a large, intimidating place like a busy bookstore. In the middle of pandemic protocals.

She just shows up at a large bookstore because she wants him to experience it? That just does not happen with responsible parents of kids on the spectrum.

It looks like she was intentionally trying to test the store, and planned to go to the media, or file a complaint looking for a payout.
 

take8easy

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Jul 27, 2014
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It's because she is the irresponsible one.

I know a couple of people with kids on the autistic spectrum, and they don't take the kids ANYWHERE wthout a lot of planning and thought, let alone to a large, intimidating place like a busy bookstore. In the middle of pandemic protocals.

She just shows up at a large bookstore because she wants him to experience it? That just does not happen with responsible parents of kids on the spectrum.

It looks like she was intentionally trying to test the store, and planned to go to the media, or file a complaint looking for a payout.
Couldn't have said better myself.
 

take8easy

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It is an upside down world being ravaged by a dedly virus that has forced us all to make significant changes to our lives.
I think not being able to take one's kid, autistic or not, to a book store, pales in comparison to those who have lost lives, loved ones, businesses, livelihoods, homes, etc during the pandemic. She can take him to a book store in 6 months.
Voice of reason!
 
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masterblaster

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It’s a difficult to raise an autistic child, have friends with one. They had their hands full when he was young. I appreciate the mother’s attempt to take her son into the book store, but don’t think she thought out her actions very well in this situation.
 
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masterpoonhunter

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We all need to remember just because we disagree with someone's opinion, it doesn't make them wrong/us right. There are few absolutes in this world.
I get all the points made except that there ARE absolutes in this world. Opinions are one thing. Common sense another.

When someone's opinion or take on a matter clashes with common sense, it gets into the category of cognitive dissonance and in my opinion, there is a fuck of a lot of it out there.
 
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Miss Hunter

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Autism is a spectrum, meaning every autistic person is different. We can't automatically assume her child is the same as whoever's child you know.

I've known numerous autistic people all across the spectrum, from the lowest functioning, to the highest functioning and many in between. They are all different.

The mother obviously put some thought into this. She discussed it with her child's paediatrician and obtained a medical note.

In regards to the accusations that she put her son's health at risk, how exactly? Bookstores aren't exactly the type of environment that is crowded and busy, even pre-pandemic. And during the present covid-era stores are supposed to be controlling the number of customers in the stores to allow for social distancing in addition to mandatory masks. And children are in the lowest age group risk anyways.

How many people on this thread are criticizing her who have followed covid restrictions/rules to a T themselves?
 
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