Are SPs Really Victimized in Canada?

[phreak]

The whole idea behind the idiotic Bill is that poor sex slaves need protection from brutal abuse and exploitation. Is that really the case in Canada? What should be the working conditions of SPs to be considered abusive or exploitative?

There are two groups of SPs in Canada: those who are citizens or permanent residents and visitors or foreign students/workers (victims of human trafficking). I assume visitors should be in a much worse position as they wouldn't be willing to contact authorities fearing deportation. And they should be the ones most abused and exploited. Are they?

1. Working/living conditions: typically upscale condos.
2. Working hours: flexible/on call - definitely suit the lifestyle.
3. Income: $500-1000 CAD a day tax free for those who are good at what they do.
4. An option to work individually, have a phone service or join a micro.

Can this be considered exploitation and abuse if the above living/working conditions are way better than what most of Canadians have? Keep in mind, sex in Canada is grossly overpriced compare to most countries foreign SPs are coming from - so the shitload of cash they bring back may be sufficient to even buy a real estate! Can it be better than that?

If retards in Ottawa think of SPs as 'crack whores', even in this case the problem is not that they are 'whores', but that they are on crack. And why being an SP wouldn't be attractive for a normal, educated, drug free girl considering the upscale working conditions and executive income? Or may be I got it all wrong?

 

[phreak]

Some definitely are, but there's a whole lot who aren't.

Here's a recent article about one who was:

Mary's story: She was 17 and forced to have sex with 10 men a day

The scantily dressed teenager stood on the hotel balcony taking nervous drags from her cigarette. She’d been in downtown Ottawa for almost two weeks, forced to have sex with a long line of men. But on that warm summer night in 2011, one man standing outside her hotel room door had something very different in mind.

Ottawa police Det. Shane Henderson had received a tip from hotel staff about a 17-year-old girl they believed was a prostitute. So the unassuming policeman did something that would change both their lives and pull back the curtain on the human-trafficking industry in the nation’s capital: He knocked on the door.

These are the stories of how the constable and the teenager met at a Cooper Street hotel and how their journey together would lead to Canada’s first human trafficking conviction involving an adult who had placed a child into prostitution.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/marys-story-she-was-17-and-forced-to-have-sex-with-10-men-a-day

The only reason why Mary ended up abused and exploited is due to her 'learning disability and behavioural issues were likely caused by her mother’s heavy drinking during pregnancy.' And this has nothing to do with the prostitution. With her issues she could have ended up selling/trafficking drugs, stealing, being a an accomplice in a robbery, etc. There will be extreme cases like that prostitution or no prostitution.

When I read stories about girls FORCED into prostitution, I'm always sceptical. It's not that these stories are always untrue, it's just extremely rare to encounter such cases, at least in the first world countries. I've never been a pimp myself, but I had a good experience with SPs in a few countries, and not just as a client, but as a friend/boyfriend or just an acquaintance. All I can tell you, there is absolutely no need to FORCE girls into prostitution: there are more than enough of them knowingly willing to do it. Not because they don't have other decent options in their lives, but just in order to make way more money than those who spend many years to achieve an income which may not be even on the same level.

 

[phreak]

There really are women who are forced into prostitution against their will here in Canada. Those who want to criminalize the entire industry want us to believe most/all women are victims who are forced into it. Those who want everything decriminalized prefer we believe very few/none are.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I also think the article I posted was released for PR purposes by the Conservatives, to support their position.

Well, Sarah, one can be forced into doing many things, and not necessarily illegal ones. A person can be forced to be a domestic helper, for example. Should we criminalize the occupation due to this fact? Prostitution itself is a perfectly normal occupation, all the extremes are related to factors which have nothing to do with the prostitution.

Sarah, since you are in this industry, do you personally know someone actually forced into prostitution?

 

[Violet]

The whole idea behind the idiotic Bill is that poor sex slaves need protection from brutal abuse and exploitation. Is that really the case in Canada? What should be the working conditions of SPs to be considered abusive or exploitative?

There are two groups of SPs in Canada: those who are citizens or permanent residents and visitors or foreign students/workers (victims of human trafficking). I assume visitors should be in a much worse position as they wouldn't be willing to contact authorities fearing deportation. And they should be the ones most abused and exploited. Are they?

1. Working/living conditions: typically upscale condos.
2. Working hours: flexible/on call - definitely suit the lifestyle.
3. Income: $500-1000 CAD a day tax free for those who are good at what they do.
4. An option to work individually, have a phone service or join a micro.

Can this be considered exploitation and abuse if the above living/working conditions are way better than what most of Canadians have? Keep in mind, sex in Canada is grossly overpriced compare to most countries foreign SPs are coming from - so the shitload of cash they bring back may be sufficient to even buy a real estate! Can it be better than that?

If retards in Ottawa think of SPs as 'crack whores', even in this case the problem is not that they are 'whores', but that they are on crack. And why being an SP wouldn't be attractive for a normal, educated, drug free girl considering the upscale working conditions and executive income? Or may be I got it all wrong?

Yes, some prostitutes in Canada are exploited. That does not justify criminalizing the clients of prostitution or the whole-scale criminalization of people who provide services to prostitutes (agents, drivers, etc). There is significant exploitation/trafficking in areas like manual labour (farming, construction), house cleaning and kitchen work too.

I was in a far worse position when I worked in some socially acceptable jobs than I have ever been in my entire time working as an SP. For example, working at a bar: I was paid minimum wage, expected to work unpaid overtime, not given breaks, treated poorly by customers and management, frequently sexually harassed and eventually fired for refusing to have sex with my boss. I put up with it because I did not feel like I had a choice at the time: I really needed the money, couldn't afford to lose the job and didn't think reporting the working conditions would be taken seriously or do anything anyway or would have greater negative consequences for me. But it didn't make me think bars should be illegal!

I do think you may be painting a rather rosy picture of the working and living conditions of the average SP. I doubt most foreign SPs (or most SPs period - high-end independent PERB advertisers are not likely representative of the majority of sex workers) work and live under the conditions you described and make the kind of money you estimated. There are also SPs who don't feel free to choose the way they work.

Most exploitation of foreign nationals in the sex trade in Canada is of women from Asia and Eastern Europe (the latter seeming more prevalent in Ontario/Quebec than here). Most foreign nationals working in Asian massage parlours/micros answer employment ads for sex work after they arrive in Canada, or are introduced by an acquaintance. Women who are working in exploitative situations may be controlled by being isolated from their family/friends, having their ID/travel documents withheld, having to adhere to very strict rules about when they work, where they go, etc, as well as threats and even forcible confinement. Another area where exploitation is more prevalent is among streetwalkers and some indoor workers who have drug addictions; most of the women in these cases are Canadian citizens or permanent residents. "Victimized" SPs in Canada are generally not being kidnapped and physically forced into sexual slavery, it is more that they sign on for something without understanding the working conditions beforehand or feeling like they have another choice.

Stopping violence against and exploitation of sex workers is not stopped by making it illegal to purchase sexual services. That is ludicrous. We have laws against trafficking, coercion, abuse and underage prostitution. If the government's goal was truly to reduce these things they could work on those laws and their enforcement, and at making SPs feel more able to/comfortable in reporting adverse working conditions.

Anti-sex work groups and individuals do vastly overstate the prevalence of things like trafficking and underage prostitution in order to gain support. But I don't think we need to pretend there is no abuse in sex work in Canada in order to claim that abuse is not inherent to sex work.

 

[phreak]

Yes, some prostitutes in Canada are exploited. That does not justify criminalizing the clients of prostitution or the whole-scale criminalization of people who provide services to prostitutes (agents, drivers, etc). There is significant exploitation/trafficking in areas like manual labour (farming, construction), house cleaning and kitchen work too.

I was in a far worse position when I worked in some socially acceptable jobs than I have ever been in my entire time working as an SP. For example, working at a bar: I was paid minimum wage, expected to work unpaid overtime, not given breaks, treated poorly by customers and management, frequently sexually harassed and eventually fired for refusing to have sex with my boss. I put up with it because I did not feel like I had a choice at the time: I really needed the money, couldn't afford to lose the job and didn't think reporting the working conditions would be taken seriously or do anything anyway or would have greater negative consequences for me. But it didn't make me think bars should be illegal!

I do think you may be painting a rather rosy picture of the working and living conditions of the average SP. I doubt most foreign SPs (or most SPs period - high-end independent PERB advertisers are not likely representative of the majority of sex workers) work and live under the conditions you described and make the kind of money you estimated. There are also SPs who don't feel free to choose the way they work.

Most exploitation of foreign nationals in the sex trade in Canada is of women from Asia and Eastern Europe (the latter seeming more prevalent in Ontario/Quebec than here). Most foreign nationals working in Asian massage parlours/micros answer employment ads for sex work after they arrive in Canada, or are introduced by an acquaintance. Women who are working in exploitative situations may be controlled by being isolated from their family/friends, having their ID/travel documents withheld, having to adhere to very strict rules about when they work, where they go, etc, as well as threats and even forcible confinement. Another area where exploitation is more prevalent is among streetwalkers and some indoor workers who have drug addictions; most of the women in these cases are Canadian citizens or permanent residents. "Victimized" SPs in Canada are generally not being kidnapped and physically forced into sexual slavery, it is more that they sign on for something without understanding the working conditions beforehand or feeling like they have another choice.

Stopping violence against and exploitation of sex workers is not stopped by making it illegal to purchase sexual services. That is ludicrous. We have laws against trafficking, coercion, abuse and underage prostitution. If the government's goal was truly to reduce these things they could work on those laws and their enforcement, and at making SPs feel more able to/comfortable in reporting adverse working conditions.

Anti-sex work groups and individuals do vastly overstate the prevalence of things like trafficking and underage prostitution in order to gain support. But I don't think we need to pretend there is no abuse in sex work in Canada in order to claim that abuse is not inherent to sex work.

Violet, let's put cases of substance abuse aside - these are the cases where prostitution itself didn't victimized SPs - they have already been victimized by drug abuse. When it comes to non-drug related cases, do you know personally or have some really reliable info that any foreign SP was seriously abused ('controlled by being isolated from their family/friends, having their ID/travel documents withheld, having to adhere to very strict rules about when they work, where they go, etc, as well as threats and even forcible confinement')? I think it sounds more like an urban legend. I'm not saying these cases do not exist, but there are extremely rare, to the degree that they can be dismissed when making judgements about prostitution. And the main reason why they are so rare is because there is no need for pimps (if any) to resort to such extremes - they have no shortage of able and wiling workforce.

As regards 'a rather rosy picture of the working and living conditions of the average SP' I may be painting, well, this is based on my own experience, not hearsay. I've never seen an SP even remotely abused. But I did encounter quite the opposite. Here is a typical Asian SP scenario. A girl is coming to Vancouver on a 6 month visitors visa on her own, rents a room in a nice condo in Richmond with roommates. Her roommates may or may not be involved in prostitution. If her English is good enough, she may even work entirely on her own. Even with somewhat lower rate of $120 CAD for 45 min compare to Canadian SPs she can easily have 5 clients or more a day. If she is reasonably good, she will have more clients than she could handle. $500 CAD a day? Not a big deal. You can easily calculate the money she will be taking back home at the end of her half a year stay in Canada. And now she is ready for the real estate business. If you call this 'abuse', what occupation is not?

 

[hornygandalf]

I suspect that what we read on this board and see advertised on ERSlist leads us to think the conditions are like that across the industry. But, I do wonder about the side of the industry we don't see on PERB; the survival, street-based sex-worker that the media and politicians focus on. What portion of the industry are they? And are they a larger portion of the industry in some places than in others? This is the kind of thing that it is hard to get good quality data/statistics on, 'though no doubt the current government wouldn't be interested anyway as they would get in the way of their ideological-based policy making.

 

[phreak]

I suspect that what we read on this board and see advertised on ERSlist leads us to think the conditions are like that across the industry. But, I do wonder about the side of the industry we don't see on PERB; the survival, street-based sex-worker that the media and politicians focus on. What portion of the industry are they? And are they a larger portion of the industry in some places than in others? This is the kind of thing that it is hard to get good quality data/statistics on, 'though no doubt the current government wouldn't be interested anyway as they would get in the way of their ideological-based policy making.

'The survival, street-based sex-worker' likely has many other issues which have nothing to do with prostitution in general: drug/alcohol abuse, personality issues, street crime connections. Prostitution for them is just one of the ways to make money along with selling drugs and stealing. All these issues with street SPs can't be solved by any new prostitution laws simply because they are not a result of selling sex.

 

[hornygandalf]

'The survival, street-based sex-worker' likely has many other issues which have nothing to do with prostitution in general: drug/alcohol abuse, personality issues, street crime connections. Prostitution for them is just one of the ways to make money along with selling drugs and stealing. All these issues with street SPs can't be solved by any new prostitution laws simply because they are not a result of selling sex.

Agreed. But that doesn't fit with how the politicians are framing it.

 

[phreak]

So, you know this for a fact about the "typical" Asian workers experience how, exactly? Speculation? Or is that what they told you? You realize that it's not good for business for them to admit that anything other than this rosy story is happening, right?

I guess I can't be 100% sure about all the facts, but certain things I do know for sure as a client: how much I pay to SP, working conditions at their incall, approximate number of clients they may have per day, how many days a week they work. Popular SPs can be booked well in advance, and it's not easy to make an appointment with them. Obviously, some of them share profits with a phone person or micro, but still we are talking about substantial income considering that it is worth way more in their home countries than in Canada. Those I talked to about it worked independently, and it seems in Asian communities this kind of business is socially acceptable, and everything is in place for those girls who come here to make big bucks. May be they didn't tell me all, but at no point did I ever notice any brutal abuse our politicians are talking about. All the girls I had a session with looked quite relaxed and happy and were not 'confined' to their incall - once I even went out for coffee with an Asian SP.

 

[Tugela]

I think the problem is that most of the academic studies that are carried out with the women in the lower end of the market, where you expect survival prostitution and abuse to be common. But that is a function primarily of extreme poverty and addiction, rather than prostitution itself. Those conditions mostly apply at the lower end only however, at the mid and high end of the business the primary motivation is financial - sex workers in those sectors are not trapped in the lifestyle nor to they have no other alternative. They do it because they can get access to far greater resources for less output than they otherwise might be able to, and that allows them to live life with a higher standard of living. For them, it is all about economics, not survival. This second group is never studied, it is always the women in survival prostitution who are the subjects of those investigations.

Then there is the question of organizations and groups whose purpose it is to provide assistance, support and advocacy to people involved in prostitution. But these groups and organizations are almost exclusively focused on the women who work at the bottom of the market, not the rest, and they completely ignore the men who work in the market (who apparently make up about 10% of the prostitute demographic).

What happens is that these two things, the academic studies and the input from advocacy groups, both of which focus on the survival sex trade, is then extrapolated across the entire market, as if all prostitutes have the same experience, and are motivated by the same things.

This however is completely false. The mid and high end of the market has an entirely different experience, and they have no, or at best very few, advocacy groups representing THEIR interests.

This is motivated primarily by ideology, with reactionary elements on both the right and left wing of the political spectrum ignoring the facts, and choosing only the bits that suit their own puritanical attitudes. This entire legislation has nothing to do with protecting either women or prostitutes, it is entirely about morally conservative folk (on both left and right) trying to force their views on everyone else packaged in ideologic rhetoric. What happened to personal liberty and responsibility along the way? The proponents of this law don't care about those things, they say they do, but really only if you do what they think you should do, if you don't, then personal freedom goes out the window and the jackboot appears.

 

[yazoo]

Ever wonder why at micros you pay the mamasan? (Not always, apparently, but based on reviews it's more common than not)
So you don't even know how much the sp keeps?

I've never paid the mamasan - always the SP.

I think where we should be putting our energies - and comments on newspaper sites and social media - is actually not talking about prostitution.

The average Canadian doesn't give a whit about prostitution, bothered only when there's a streetwalker at the end of their driveway driving down their property values and making their neighbourhood look rough. The certainly don't give a shit about that hooker's rights or safety. And the rights of 'johns'? I think McKay got the politics right. Most people think that sex consumers are perverts; dirty exploiters, at about the same level as a guy with a raincoat in a playground.

But the average Canadian does care about rights. Their own rights, and for the right-wing the right to be free of the nanny state, and for the left wing, the right of the underclass not to be oppressed by the elite.

This expertly crafted bill manages to threaten the values of both sides. We should capitalize on this. Change the subject in the media from the prurient to that of our rights to be free of government interference in our lives.

Conservative discussion boards are ripe for asking little questions about how people feel about the state now intruding so deeply into our lives that they want to regulate how we define our relationships with each other.

Conservatives don't fear attacks from their left. But they sure as hell fear attacks from the right.

 

[Tugela]

I've never paid the mamasan - always the SP.

I think where we should be putting our energies - and comments on newspaper sites and social media - is actually not talking about prostitution.

The average Canadian doesn't give a whit about prostitution, bothered only when there's a streetwalker at the end of their driveway driving down their property values and making their neighbourhood look rough. The certainly don't give a shit about that hooker's rights or safety. And the rights of 'johns'? I think McKay got the politics right. Most people think that sex consumers are perverts; dirty exploiters, at about the same level as a guy with a raincoat in a playground.

But the average Canadian does care about rights. Their own rights, and for the right-wing the right to be free of the nanny state, and for the left wing, the right of the underclass not to be oppressed by the elite.

This expertly crafted bill manages to threaten the values of both sides. We should capitalize on this. Change the subject in the media from the prurient to that of our rights to be free of government interference in our lives.

Conservative discussion boards are ripe for asking little questions about how people feel about the state now intruding so deeply into our lives that they want to regulate how we define our relationships with each other.

Conservatives don't fear attacks from their left. But they sure as hell fear attacks from the right.

Conservatives only complain when the state tries to regulate THEIR relationships, they have no problem with the state regulating other people relationships.

Freedom only goes so far you know, it is for me, not for you.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Conservatives only complain when the state tries to regulate THEIR relationships, they have no problem with the state regulating other people relationships.

Freedom only goes so far you know, it is for me, not for you.

very true, but i don't think you can restrict your comment to only conservatives - i seem to remember a few pieces-of-crap legislation stuffed down my throat from the libs and ndp as well

 

[phreak]

So it's all speculation? Kind of ironic that you thought you could spout your speculations in the same post you tried to call violet out for speculating, isn't it?

Ever wonder why at micros you pay the mamasan? (Not always, apparently, but based on reviews it's more common than not)
So you don't even know how much the sp keeps?

As I've mentioned, I discussed financial issues only with independent Asian SPs. Will try to talk to a girl in a micro about that if I find one with sufficient English. Never paid to mamasan - only to SP directly even in micros. Nor sure what's the micro's share, but whatever it is, girls seem to be free to leave and go to another micro or work independently.

I'm not blaming anyone for speculating, all I'm saying is that stories about SP abuse we normally get from the media, and if you, girls, who ARE in this business, don't know anybody who was abused or at least know about the abuse from your own trusted sources, chances are - abuse is almost non-existent.

 

[phreak]

So because my porn star friends don't know any kids involved in kiddie porn it must be non-existent too, right?

Dude your logic is flawed beyond belief. You choose to see things the way you want, we understand. But you're not convincing anyone with this argument. Well no one I know...

Not sure who's logic is flawed here... If you are an insider in any kind of business, you'll probably know more about it than an average Joe, including cases of abuse (if any). Your porn star friends likely don't know more about kiddie porn than anyone else because kiddie porn is a stand alone illegal business and is inherently abusive, and adult porn is a legit one. But they may know more about abuse in adult porn industry (if any).

Prostitution is not illegal, and if your are in this business, you may know more about SP abuse than those not involved. So far the SP abuse cases we discussed were not related to prostitution directly: it was rather troubled childhood, drug abuse, crime connections and lack of government regulation of the industry. Though SP abuse may be rampant in some corrupt third world countries, I doubt this is the case in Canada. My point is simple - abuse is not inherent to the prostitution as the occupation, and almost all cases of SP abuse are caused by other factors rather than the prostitution itself.

 

[Tugela]

very true, but i don't think you can restrict your comment to only conservatives - i seem to remember a few pieces-of-crap legislation stuffed down my throat from the libs and ndp as well

The left wing has the same mentality. The only political group that is willing to be pragmatic and not ideological are the moderates at the center. Those are the people who will listen to reason. The left and right wings usually refuse to listen to anything else, as far as they are concerned the only legitimate point of view is theirs and nothing can sway them, no matter how reasoned or logical a counter argument might be. They metaphorically stick their fingers in the ears and refuse to listen like children.

 

[Tugela]

As I've mentioned, I discussed financial issues only with independent Asian SPs. Will try to talk to a girl in a micro about that if I find one with sufficient English. Never paid to mamasan - only to SP directly even in micros. Nor sure what's the micro's share, but whatever it is, girls seem to be free to leave and go to another micro or work independently.

I'm not blaming anyone for speculating, all I'm saying is that stories about SP abuse we normally get from the media, and if you, girls, who ARE in this business, don't know anybody who was abused or at least know about the abuse from your own trusted sources, chances are - abuse is almost non-existent.

The issue with the AMPs and micros is not abuse, it never has been. It has always been about trafficking of illegal foreign workers. The "abuse" argument, and lack thereof, is a shield that apologists use to deflect the conversation from the legitimate issue, which is trafficking. Likewise, it is a rationale that abolitionists use, but those people don't really care about trafficking either, what they care about is a puritanical view of sex. In both instances the "abuse" argument is not valid, since while it may happen in some instances, it doesn't happen in all instances, it is used as a tool to rationalize the situation while overlooking the real problem. With trafficking however, there are no grey areas or counter arguments.

 

[Tugela]

As far as I know, I've never met anyone who's been kidnapped and forced into prostitution under those circumstances, but I have met women who've been forced into it by their SO's.

Even when in the industry voluntarily, I know many sex workers who were forced to see clients they didn't want to see, through intimidation and blackmail by pimps or agency owners, and experienced some of that myself in the past.

Which is the argument for regulation as opposed to prohibition or just ignoring the industry. When there are no rules in an industry, either because it is underground or because it is the wild west, people do as they please and there will always be those that do that in a malevolent manner.

The problems you describe can be largely resolved through a combination of legalising regulated business and criminalizing unregulated business.