Carman Fox

Gangs and ID Scanning

festealth

Resident Troll
Sep 8, 2005
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Hey, if it's the UN gang fighting with the Red Scorpions for "control" of the drug trade, I am just wondering how the Hells Angels fit into all this?

Or have the HA lines of distribution been limited by police efforts over the last decade, and now these gangs have just managed to fill the vacuum?

I just think it's interesting these gangs- from the pics in the newspaper they look like suburban middle class youth- have quickly gained prominence. Anybody have any theories?
My theory of things:
I think the HA is probably still THE major player in the drug trafficking, weapons dealing, extortion, etc. Now they're getting less heat and less bad press since now in Vancouver we have a bunch of wannabees dealing illegal merchandise in a relatively small scale, but getting all the attention and publicity.

Overall, those UN, Red Scorpions... the "We're the Coolest Gang Ever" Gang.... I dunno... they're like the local shop, whereas the HA is like the wholesale warehouse distributor.
 

trackstar

Swollen Member
Jun 26, 2004
2,505
17
38
The, "Smart" ones are the ones that realise that any publicity is bad publicity. I seems like these guys just love being mentioned in the news. I don't predict a big future for the warring "Gangsters".
 

Stella_Hardon

New member
Apr 29, 2006
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BC Privacy Commissioner rules on BARWATCH

BC Privacy Commissioner has put out a ruling fairly critcail of Barwatch.

http://www.oipc.bc.ca/PIPAOrders/2009/OrderP09-01.pdf


If you are going to a club which requires a Drivers Licence scan perhaps you could indicate to the staff that it is illegal and see how they repsond and
post your experince here.

It is clear the the pro-barwatch groups (VPD, LCB, Treoscope ...etc ) have done their best to scuttle the Privacy Commissioner's efforts and plan a meeting August 11, 2009 to review strategy.
 

porcelianprincess

New member
Apr 25, 2009
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I being a current club goer like the barwatch program. I like being able to go into a club a know that A)there wont be any underage prostitots and B) I am not going to be shot. Now that being said not all of the clubs scan Id's and those ones(usually outside of the dt core) are full of gang affiliates or people who have been blacklisted for whatever reason. I think that with the current "gang situation" it would be silly for them to abolish the barwatch program. what kind of message does that send out. The B.C. government promises to hire new officers and put them in a task force that hasnt been proven to be effective and yet they get rid of a program that is. When was the last time someone was shot in a club that is a participant in the barwatch program.
 

Stella_Hardon

New member
Apr 29, 2006
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I being a current club goer like the barwatch program. I like being able to go into a club a know that A)there wont be any underage prostitots and B) I am not going to be shot. Now that being said not all of the clubs scan Id's and those ones(usually outside of the dt core) are full of gang affiliates or people who have been blacklisted for whatever reason. I think that with the current "gang situation" it would be silly for them to abolish the barwatch program. what kind of message does that send out. The B.C. government promises to hire new officers and put them in a task force that hasnt been proven to be effective and yet they get rid of a program that is. When was the last time someone was shot in a club that is a participant in the barwatch program.
A. Showing your ID to the bouncer worked JUST fine for avoiding underage prostitues.

B. You may not get shot but what's to prevent someone from beating the shit out of you.

C. You can achieve A and B with showing ID and getting wanded for metal

D. You have made a connection with Barwatch and the "Gang Situation" - THERE IS NO LOGICAL CONNECTION . A gang member who wants to take out a rival will enter the Bar and start shooting. Barwatch only gives the cops a list of who entered the bar that day.

E. Are you safer ? The barwatch program has concentrated the roudies to Non-Barwatch establishments ... your local pub. Your local pub didn't need a team of bouncers or the scanners before ... now they have to invest in the program.

F. You have made an inference that Barwatch prrevents killing in a bar. See D.
 

Jessikaxxx

Retired
Oct 21, 2005
808
5
18
ya never know

...Gangsters clubhouses could be popping up all over downtown!!!

...Can anyone explain to me how scanning IDs at bars has anything to do with fighting crime???

"...Scanning ID cards at nightclubs is going to reduce criminal activities...."

??????????

What a preconceived narrow portrayal of a gangster!
(imagining a thug at the club wearing gold chains and a white T sporting their colors and flashing gang signs)

This type of indoctrination is a gross insult to the citizen's collective intelligence. (limited as it can be at times)

This is the bullshit that public relations and community liasons spoonfeed the citizens to pacify them.

The reality is that a whole lotta LE would be unemployed if there werent criminals.

Scanning cards is propaganda and job creation and only serves as a bandaid or distraction to whats really taking place.

One thing is for sure...You never know what will happen next.

xo,
jxxx
604-961-6260
 

CJ Tylers

Retired Sr. Member
Jan 3, 2003
1,643
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North Vancouver
What BarWatch does do is identify known gangsters to bouncers. These bouncers are then supposed to bar access to the club to the gangsters.

If the gangsters don't comply (the bouncers aren't supposed to risk their lives for this), they call the cops.

The point isn't to protect people in the club (although, it could have that spin off). It's about denying gangsters an affluent social life that elevates their position in the eyes of others (by being able to spend big and look cool in front of others in "prestigious" clubs) or to even have a night life period.

It's one step in the "what good is all this money if they can't spend it?" I like the idea of the government seizing all assets of crime, provided they can bring about proof that the assets were derived from criminal activities. I like the idea of barring gangsters from everything that is good in life... Want to have a normal life? Stop being a gangster...put away the weapons... work for a damn living and stop messing around with people.

That's a far softer approach than I'd take with proven gangsters... but it's a far more fair one (and humane, I suppose). These SOB's don't care who they hurt... how many lives they ruin... why should society bend over backwards to protect them?

As far as the Barwatch question, I believe it ended up a controversy because some bars (Wild Coyote) ended up going overboard. They took digital photographs, harrased people.... potentially innocent people. Now, I can attest to the fact that the WC doormen have (in past) been real dicks on a power trip... so I can easily believe they went above and beyond reasonable enforcement.

If you don't agree with the program, don't go to the bars using it.
 

anonanon

Vancouver Blond Expert
Aug 29, 2006
1,230
4
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Downtown Vancouver
The whole thing is a good idea but set up incorrectly. I'm no gangster but when I go downtown clubbing I spend a fair amount of cash in usually the VIP areas. More than a few times I have to have a chat with some VPD officer about why I'm there (duh, its a club...:rolleyes:) and how I get my money. I hate it and find it ruins my experience. Just because I'm wearing nice clothes and drinking expensive booze in a VIP area makes me a subject of interest?

With that being said however I fully understand what the program is set up for and what it is supposed to do. I just think it needs a major overhaul...:)
 

bc guy

New member
Mar 2, 2009
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A. Showing your ID to some 200lb gorrilla will not check out if you on a not welcome list. A computer will scan hundreds of names alot faster

B. I would rather get the shit beaten out of me than be shot at

C. I'd rather get scanned than take a chance on a known trouble maker making it into the club in the first place

D . You honestly think there is no connection between gangs and clubs. What planet have you been living on?



A. Showing your ID to the bouncer worked JUST fine for avoiding underage prostitues.

B. You may not get shot but what's to prevent someone from beating the shit out of you.

C. You can achieve A and B with showing ID and getting wanded for metal

D. You have made a connection with Barwatch and the "Gang Situation" - THERE IS NO LOGICAL CONNECTION . A gang member who wants to take out a rival will enter the Bar and start shooting. Barwatch only gives the cops a list of who entered the bar that day.

E. Are you safer ? The barwatch program has concentrated the roudies to Non-Barwatch establishments ... your local pub. Your local pub didn't need a team of bouncers or the scanners before ... now they have to invest in the program.

F. You have made an inference that Barwatch prrevents killing in a bar. See D.
 

Urquell

Member
Jul 2, 2009
130
0
16
that Privacy Commission report was a long read, but interesting. I'll print out a copy and take it to one of the clubs I go to this weekend, and will report back on what happens.

Should be fun. :)
 

Stella_Hardon

New member
Apr 29, 2006
335
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A. Showing your ID to some 200lb gorrilla will not check out if you on a not welcome list. A computer will scan hundreds of names alot faster

B. I would rather get the shit beaten out of me than be shot at

C. I'd rather get scanned than take a chance on a known trouble maker making it into the club in the first place

D . You honestly think there is no connection between gangs and clubs. What planet have you been living on?
BC Guy ... Are you a Barwatch shill or just a moron ?

Read the stuff you quoted me on and connect the dots.

A. A good club will have staff continuity. The bouncer knows the customer better than the management. The list to watch is the black list. Who has a welcome list ? Barwatch and it's affiliate Genisis Security is designed to make the bouncer function a commodity. That's why Barwatch needs to scan DL as the front line staff do not know the customer or the troublemaker Lookng at the DL for age and wanding for metal is sufficient ...

B. Getting shot would be a low probability event to start off with. Are you enough of an asshole to worry about getting beat up in a club? What would you be doing to either get the shit kicked out of you or shot. The chance of you getting shot is next to NIL. If you are in a club where the shit hits the fan the kill team isn't going to stop for barwatch scanning. You are NOT safer with Barwatch.

C. You cannot predict who the trouble maker is. I'm sure that Barwatch and your ilk would label a rude drunk a trouble maker. Most bouncer used to be able to handle the situation.

D. In prior posts I'm pretty sure that I indicated the No5 and Brandi's had gang member ownership. I thought that was a given. It would be common knowledge on Perb. What make the whole DL scanning program such a piece of shit is that the VPD and LCB insisted that No5 and Brandi's install the scanners when the VPD knew who would have access to the information. (No5 and Brandi's are not part of Barwatch as far as I know)
 

bc guy

New member
Mar 2, 2009
22
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Mr Hardon I am not a shill nor am I a moron and I will refrain from further immature name calling. I'm just stating that I unlike othersI do not have anything to hide when I go clubbing
BC Guy ... Are you a Barwatch shill or just a moron ?

Read the stuff you quoted me on and connect the dots.

A. A good club will have staff continuity. The bouncer knows the customer better than the management. The list to watch is the black list. Who has a welcome list ? Barwatch and it's affiliate Genisis Security is designed to make the bouncer function a commodity. That's why Barwatch needs to scan DL as the front line staff do not know the customer or the troublemaker Lookng at the DL for age and wanding for metal is sufficient ...

B. Getting shot would be a low probability event to start off with. Are you enough of an asshole to worry about getting beat up in a club? What would you be doing to either get the shit kicked out of you or shot. The chance of you getting shot is next to NIL. If you are in a club where the shit hits the fan the kill team isn't going to stop for barwatch scanning. You are NOT safer with Barwatch.

C. You cannot predict who the trouble maker is. I'm sure that Barwatch and your ilk would label a rude drunk a trouble maker. Most bouncer used to be able to handle the situation.

D. In prior posts I'm pretty sure that I indicated the No5 and Brandi's had gang member ownership. I thought that was a given. It would be common knowledge on Perb. What make the whole DL scanning program such a piece of shit is that the VPD and LCB insisted that No5 and Brandi's install the scanners when the VPD knew who would have access to the information. (No5 and Brandi's are not part of Barwatch as far as I know)
 

Stella_Hardon

New member
Apr 29, 2006
335
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Sorry for calling you a Barwatch shill and a moron but your high opinion is just that - your opinion. Look at the facts, move beyond your opinion and make an effort to understand the argument, I hope you will see your faulty logic and correct yourself.

Read the Privacy Commissioners report. It;s a long read but I'm sure your able to work thru it. The Analysis part [85] is particularly noteworthy, amusing.

PS ... You have unfairly characterized this particular discussion as immature name calling .. It is not. You have made claims which are your opinion and they are wrong.

The press has given Mr. Teti a free ride with regards to Barwatch and its positive aspects
don't help Mr. Teti by blowing more smoke on Perb.
 

Urquell

Member
Jul 2, 2009
130
0
16
never mind the legalities of it and move straight to the purpose. The system is (in theory) designed to keep an eye on the worst offenders and the worst risk of violence, namely the gang members. Never mind the smoke and mirrors about the minors, a check at the door basically eliminates the worst of that problem, and the minors aren't generally a risk of anything more than a fine to the bar and a drunken brawl amongst themselves, which is easily handled by security staff.

The report states that the worst offenders are successfully able to intimidate the door staff to bypass the system entirely. This being the case, the principal benefit (keeping the dangerous people, and their weapons, out) has been neatly sidestepped, and so the main reasons for doing this no longer exist. The real villains still have the same access they always did, with the same anonymity they always did, so the risk reduction to the average Joe is basically zero in the clubs that the gang members frequent. The people that will suffer through the police rigamarole will be the innocents anyway (assuming no camera surveillance)

Against the limited benefit pf having this crap in place is that the Average Joe will have his personal information become available, and accessible, to any bar staff with access to the system (including doormen, the lowest common denominator, and by far the most corruptible) In theory the system should be a great boon, and it's an excellent idea (again in theory) but in practice it's basically useless except for the rare random act by someone, or some drunk, outside the main area of interest.

It's about as useless as the gun registry, except in this case your personal information is more widely disseminated.
 

bc guy

New member
Mar 2, 2009
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.

PS ... You have unfairly characterized this particular discussion as immature name calling .. It is not. You have made claims which are your opinion and they are wrong.
Who are you to say whos wrong or right? As far as I'm concerned this is an open forum and each of us are entitled to our own opinions.
 

anonanon

Vancouver Blond Expert
Aug 29, 2006
1,230
4
0
Downtown Vancouver
And of course it isn't that hard to get into a club but not go through the line, or even the front door. You just have to know the right people, or tip enough $. Not that I'd know or anything! :p
 

Stella_Hardon

New member
Apr 29, 2006
335
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Who are you to say whos wrong or right? As far as I'm concerned this is an open forum and each of us are entitled to our own opinions.
I'm not going to educate you on elementary logic but you stop for a red light .. right ?

A fact doesn't require the support of opinion, it stands on its own merits.

Someone once said if you tell a lie enough times people eventually believe its true.

John Teti is doing the same thing, he's saying you are safer with Barwatch. THAT IS UNTRUE. Read the privacy commissioners report .. You and John Teti have a fairly similar perspective and opinion so don't feel to uncomfortable; you have company of some sort.

This is an open forum ... it doesn't mean that errors/lies/ill informed opinions will be allowed to go unchallenged

If you feel umbrage at what I'm saying that's really a shame becuase I'm pretty sure most of Perb is with the anti-Barwatch program.
 

bc guy

New member
Mar 2, 2009
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I'm not going to educate you on elementary logic but you stop for a red light .. right ?
elementary logic? The FACT is Barwatch id scan is a deterrent. Is it 100% effective-no I'll be the first to admit that. But are there any others ways you can think of that will weed out undesirables from a club that will work as well. I personally know a few doorman at some clubs and these guys change jobs like the seasons not to mention they can easily be bought of by the first guy waving a deuce in front of their face. If the owners of theses clubs strictly enforced their policy of scanning for every patron that enters the FACT is I would feel safer. As for a privacy issue I don't have a problem who has my name,birthday and address if it helps make the club a safer place to be. Yes my opinion but not the only perb members
 

1q3er5

New member
Jun 11, 2009
1
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what the... that many indo-canadian gangs? They're awfully quiet of late for that many gangs.
 

Stella_Hardon

New member
Apr 29, 2006
335
2
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elementary logic? The FACT is Barwatch id scan is a deterrent. Is it 100% effective-no I'll be the first to admit that. But are there any others ways you can think of that will weed out undesirables from a club that will work as well. I personally know a few doorman at some clubs and these guys change jobs like the seasons not to mention they can easily be bought of by the first guy waving a deuce in front of their face. If the owners of theses clubs strictly enforced their policy of scanning for every patron that enters the FACT is I would feel safer. As for a privacy issue I don't have a problem who has my name,birthday and address if it helps make the club a safer place to be. Yes my opinion but not the only perb members
Take a moment and think about what you have said, there are so many logical in consistencies in what you have writtten I have to wonder if you are indeed John Teti.

You claim as a FACT that the Barwatch id scan is a deterrent .. IT IS NOT. The stupid punks who are barred were never a real problem and have gone to another club. THAT IS NOT A DETERRENT.

You aknowledge that the doormen are fallible then you make an arguement that IF the policy would be strictly enforced there would be an element of safety. You know full well that the IF isn't happening so how can you argue as FACT that you would feel safer ???

You don't have a problem who has your name number and address if it helps make the club a safer place .. THE THREAT ISN"T WITH YOU .. . DO YOU THINK THE THREAT WILL STOP AND HAVE A DRIVER"S LICENCE SCANNED ????

The serious threat is a low probablity with high consequent event and cannot be stopped by a Barwatch program yet Barwatch claims that there is a improved security yet when pressed by the commissioner they couldn't provide solid evidence..

Take a day and read the Privacy Commissioner report and do some serious reflection. I don't have any great expectations but you really shiould make the effort.
 
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