OceanGate Titan lost sub

[FreeG]

I've been really pulled into the missing sub saga the last few days. Partly because it relates to current/previous jobs, and partly because of the background/interest in that industry. Some rather random thoughts:

- the design had serious questions raised over it about 5 yrs ago. The person raising the questions was fired (more for HOW he shared info to others, apparently, but in the end, the design issues appear they remained). It wasn't classed, as the CEO was on record for saying classification rules stifle innovation. In reality, the company didn't want to spend the money/time and was trying to shortcut a process designed to keep lives safe.

- millions of $ are being spent for this rescue. Normally, I wouldn't make note of that - rescues for people making not-so-smart decisions happens all the time. I daresay most Search & Rescue efforts are due to humans making poor decisions somewhere. I think the 2 things that irk me about this is: the sub's design had a history of not meeting standards, some articles highlight the issues that have popped up, and they still went down! It also bothers me that similar funds aren't spent on 1000's of migrants/refugees throughout the world that face challenge/get lost crossing open waters. It just smacks of hypocrisy that people making a dangerous leap to get themselves/their kids to a better life (and how desparate must someone be to get into an over-filled, unseaworthy boat?!) barely raise an eyebrow when they go missing/lost at sea, but a couple billionaires get all the attention/money possible to get them back (and again, if the company had done its job right, the chances for requiring this rescue would be greatly reduced)

- I should add: let's try not to get this thread off-track into an argument about immigration/etc. But if someone REALLY wants to, try to first spend a few moments and imagine themselves in a situation so shitty, so hopeless, that they feel the best future for them/family is to escape by any means possible. Read a few of those stories please. I'd imagine MANY would do the same (and likewise many Ukrainians have been met with open arms following Russia's invasion, but I digress)

- I don't have much thoughts for the 2 billionaires. They spent the money, they've done similar things, they knew & acknowledged the risks. I have some sympathy for the French explorer guy; probably a contractor/employee, paid to provide story & commentary, probably felt pressured to go along (or at worst, got numb to the issues that have occurred). I have ZERO sympathy for the CEO - his attitude, decisions, influence led to this disaster. He bears full responsibility. I DO have sympathy for the 19yo kid. I don't care if someone says "he's an adult" or you assume he's a spoiled rich kid - he was trusting in his dad to make a good decision and protect him and now he's dead. I doubt very much that he's evil or deserving; at worst, he was probably spoiled but I'm guessing that unless they all died instantly, he was a pretty scared dude...(and his dad was experiencing terrible regret).

- I do think they're dead. Full respect to the search teams for keeping going (I know from previous jobs that the "96 hrs Oxygen" is based on MANY things. Its not like they're alive at 96.0 hours then dead at 96.1 hours, OK? CO2, O2, temperature, water...all factors for how long they'll live.) But honestly, I think something mechanical happened and the thing imploded or had a severe leak that killed them very quickly. I've been in trainers that simulate water leaks at very shallow depths and I've seen what 3000psi leaks do to nearly material, so anything in that range, in that size tube, is catastrophic. THere's no pumps, no escape.

- According to one article, the sub is supposed to have a fail-safe release mechanism that allows it to re-surface (probably something that releases the ballast). If that's the case, either it failed too, or it imploded/flooded and the release mechanism would have no effect.

- If it was on the surface, the P-3/P-8's would find it; their radar's are designed to pickup periscopes (filter out wave reflections) so as long as portions of the sub was above the water, it should have been found.

- Even when its found, they need an ROV and hoist mechanism to lift it up. People are referring to the "weight" but that's not important, its how 'buoyant' it is now (which will be most affected by whether its flooded or not). If it miraculously is NOT flooded, then its actual weight only matters when it needs to be pulled out of
the water.

- Just watched the latest USCG press conference. Good job by the Captain, IMO. The bit about classifying sounds was interesting, but the Woods Hole guy is (obviously) correct - what things sound like below water (remember the sonobuoys that picked up the sounds are at the surface of the water, and sound travels in all sorts of funky ways due to pressure & temp gradients) can be very distorted to the human ear. I've heard all sorts of ringing & clicking underwater that was biologics. Banging on a hull may not be as clear as you'd think from Hollywood...

Whelp, I"ve spent yet another 15 min on this subject that I really don't have to spare...

 

[Forum mod]

They shouldn't have been down there to being with. The Ontario govt did it right by restricting any access to the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, it's a gravesite, not a tourist attraction.

I have zero time or sympathy for any of these rich idiots who kill themselves with their misadventures borne of too much money, too much ego and too little common sense. Richard Branson almost killed himself a few times, maybe if he had done so, a cautionary tale would have been told.

 

[MB Mod]

I may be prejudiced because one of my ancestors is still down in the engine room of that ship but what business do people have disturbing there grave in the first place. Legitimate archaeological research done with respect is one thing but joy riding by a bunch of billionaires is disgraceful. Although I do find it ironic that these billionaires died on a poorly designed submersible finding a ship that was built with shoddy workmanship and shoddy materials by other billionaires to make more money.

 

[FreeG]

Richard Branson almost killed himself a few times, maybe if he had done so, a cautionary tale would have been told.

I think the fact that he ALMOST killed himself just raises the bragging rights! How many times have you heard folks boast "I could have died!" or "I almost died on that hike!" Some folks just want to get closer & closer to the edge, the closer they get to death, the more they feel alive... and now a few just crossed over it.

(I do have sympathy for the kid and his mom. He should NOT have been on that sub. Even the French guy knew the risks better (and probably felt some pressure despite any misgivings...or had just become numb to the dangers)).

 

[luvsdaty]

It's really no different than all those bodies up on Everest. Arrogance can be humbling sometimes

 

[vanperb]

It's really no different than all those bodies up on Everest. Arrogance can be humbling sometimes

“Every frozen corpse on Mt. Everest was once a highly motivated person”

 

[Mr. J]

You'd never catch me doing something like that. Respect for the site notwithstanding, just the risk factors alone are enough to make me stay on dry land, period! The irony is that I wanna climb Mount Rainier in spite of THAT being risky as well.

 

[SSL Management]

Rich, stupid, arrogant, elitist, risky, whatever! We are still talking about 5 human beings who were terrified, helpless and most certainly dead by now. My thoughts and prayers go out to their families.

SSL

 

[MB Mod]

Apparently they’ve found a debris field on the sea floor, that’s not a good sign.

 

[luvsdaty]

Apparently they’ve found a debris field on the sea floor, that’s not a good sign.

Probably imploded? Imagine how much pressure down there 😳

 

[MB Mod]

Here’s a demonstration what happens to a coffee cup at 2000 meters the ocean is 12,000 meters out there, the pressure is brutal!

 

[FreeG]

Probably imploded? Imagine how much pressure down there 😳

No need to imagine! its roughly 5,850 psi. This is higher than almost any pressurized gas cylinder I've ever seen used on land (4000psi is the highest I've seen for some compressed gases).

Just saw the press conference - debris field confirmed to be from an implosion. The one good thing for these 5 folks is they died instantaneously. If I had to guess, either the window on one end failed, or the joint between the titanium end-bells and carbon-fiber body failed. Hopefully they'll be able to retrieve enough debris or ID it to figure out what likely happened.

So yes, entrepreneurs, standards/classification society rules/robust testing programs MATTER. Now we can add 5 more reasons why...

 

[Lo-ki]

Two things I will never do….

Go onboard a ship that sinks voluntarily…..
Jump out of a totally serviceable aircraft….

 

[westwoody]

So yes, entrepreneurs, standards/classification society rules/robust testing programs MATTER.

This sub was abusing the “experimental” exemption, fraudulently avoiding regulation to make money.Taking paying passengers on a boat is not an experiment, it is a profit guided business.

The rich guy made lots of “safety is for pussies” comments on lots of topics. Took a stupid risk and got what he deserved.

 

[rlock]

Hull crush depth ain't nothin' ta fuck with.

One moment, things are fine, the next you're crushed into red paste as your sub implodes.

I'm not a materials engineer, but they said the craft was made of composite fiber rather than use the more proven types of deep diving metal, and that gets me thinking that this is a hard way to find out the limits of how much repeated stress such a hull can take before it fails catastrophically. Still, at that depth, there is no such thing as perfect safety.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_depth_ratings

- millions of $ are being spent for this rescue. Normally, I wouldn't make note of that - rescues for people making not-so-smart decisions happens all the time. I daresay most Search & Rescue efforts are due to humans making poor decisions somewhere. I think the 2 things that irk me about this is: the sub's design had a history of not meeting standards, some articles highlight the issues that have popped up, and they still went down! It also bothers me that similar funds aren't spent on 1000's of migrants/refugees throughout the world that face challenge/get lost crossing open waters. It just smacks of hypocrisy that people making a dangerous leap to get themselves/their kids to a better life (and how desparate must someone be to get into an over-filled, unseaworthy boat?!) barely raise an eyebrow when they go missing/lost at sea, but a couple billionaires get all the attention/money possible to get them back (and again, if the company had done its job right, the chances for requiring this rescue would be greatly reduced)

- I should add: let's try not to get this thread off-track into an argument about immigration/etc. But if someone REALLY wants to, try to first spend a few moments and imagine themselves in a situation so shitty, so hopeless, that they feel the best future for them/family is to escape by any means possible. Read a few of those stories please. I'd imagine MANY would do the same (and likewise many Ukrainians have been met with open arms following Russia's invasion, but I digress)

It peeves me to see people try to conflate these two (or three) issues, and there has been a lot of that on social media the last few days. You don't want to open up a can of worms, but then did so.

If they were the Apollo 13 astronauts, would they deserve a rescue effort? Plenty of people out there who say space exploration is a waste of money.
What if they were 33 Chilean miners ? What about those kids on that Thai soccer team who went into a cave and then it flooded?
Some have argued that every person who goes off-trail and gets lost in the North Shore mountains should be left to fend for themselves, or pay for the privilege of calling for help.

Part of the skill set of coast guards and navies is conducting rescues at sea, so having them stand down is no help because their ships are already built & manned for that purpose. If they are able to do underwater rescues, it is not an ability born from rescuing wayward billionaires; it comes from their own need to do things like rescue & recover their own submarines, many of which are subs used for the purpose of waging nuclear war. (Can of worms? Meet the can of electric eels.)

So "yeah but [someone's idea of worthy charity or social problem]" is really not much of an argument.

Some peoples' endangered refugees are other peoples' unwanted invaders, to start with. Are those forces in place to save the migrants, or prevent them from landing? In Europe they are having that very debate right now, and as you say, it is long & complicated.

One thing is for certain: The billionaires signed "I'm taking a big risk of death" waivers just to go on the sub voyage at all, and the founder risked his own life on his own experimental craft; the migrant smuggling bosses wouldn't be caught dead on their own shitty overcrowded boats.

I'm no fan of billionaire oligarchs and their ego stroking activities, but be honest - if you had that kind of money, wouldn't you go have adventures with it? What stops most people from having more adventurous lives, it is not fear of travel, but lack of resources (and time, because they are busy struggling for resources).

Maybe these guys seemed to take a foolish risk, with an experimental craft that was probably not given extensive long-term testing.
But there are many other billionaire oligarchs who do severe & tangible harm to the world, and yet never leave the comfort of their cushy mansions and country clubs.

 

[masterpoonhunter]

Not sure of the area presented to the water above it but if the sub was 100 sq ft, one ft of water weighs about 6240 lbs so a calculation of the weight above the sub can be made.
The report says communication with the sub was lost about 1.5 hours into the dive so maybe it made it down to the ocean floor, lets say it got near it.
The Titanic is at 12350 ft. Maybe it got to 10,000 ft. Quick calculation puts the weight the sub was supporting at 62,400,000 lbs.
Any kind of leak, any bolt not fully secure, any chamber failure and the air inside would have been squeezed out in milliseconds and the sub would have collapsed like anyone crushing a beer can.

We are hearing about all the stuff the co founder of the company may have said, done etc. Maybe the guy was a dick but what is left is a tragedy and maybe a learning experience. One thing is sure for this old cowboy, the bottom of a pool or me jumping off the dock at my place at the lake is about as far down as I'm ever going.

 

[westwoody]

Thinking outside the box but…

Coast Guard, Navy are there already. These ships and helicopters have already been built and the crews paid.
This rescue could be looked at as a drill for a bigger emergency. These missions need constant training . This sub mission is a training mission.

re liability, there’s some honkin’ big suits coming!
Jurisdiction will be a big issue, as will the legality of signing away any acceptance of risk.

 

[John Aston]

I've been really pulled into the missing sub saga the last few days. Partly because it relates to current/previous jobs, and partly because of the background/interest in that industry. Some rather random thoughts:

- the design had serious questions raised over it about 5 yrs ago. The person raising the questions was fired (more for HOW he shared info to others, apparently, but in the end, the design issues appear they remained). It wasn't classed, as the CEO was on record for saying classification rules stifle innovation. In reality, the company didn't want to spend the money/time and was trying to shortcut a process designed to keep lives safe.

- millions of $ are being spent for this rescue. Normally, I wouldn't make note of that - rescues for people making not-so-smart decisions happens all the time. I daresay most Search & Rescue efforts are due to humans making poor decisions somewhere. I think the 2 things that irk me about this is: the sub's design had a history of not meeting standards, some articles highlight the issues that have popped up, and they still went down! It also bothers me that similar funds aren't spent on 1000's of migrants/refugees throughout the world that face challenge/get lost crossing open waters. It just smacks of hypocrisy that people making a dangerous leap to get themselves/their kids to a better life (and how desparate must someone be to get into an over-filled, unseaworthy boat?!) barely raise an eyebrow when they go missing/lost at sea, but a couple billionaires get all the attention/money possible to get them back (and again, if the company had done its job right, the chances for requiring this rescue would be greatly reduced)

- I should add: let's try not to get this thread off-track into an argument about immigration/etc. But if someone REALLY wants to, try to first spend a few moments and imagine themselves in a situation so shitty, so hopeless, that they feel the best future for them/family is to escape by any means possible. Read a few of those stories please. I'd imagine MANY would do the same (and likewise many Ukrainians have been met with open arms following Russia's invasion, but I digress)

- I don't have much thoughts for the 2 billionaires. They spent the money, they've done similar things, they knew & acknowledged the risks. I have some sympathy for the French explorer guy; probably a contractor/employee, paid to provide story & commentary, probably felt pressured to go along (or at worst, got numb to the issues that have occurred). I have ZERO sympathy for the CEO - his attitude, decisions, influence led to this disaster. He bears full responsibility. I DO have sympathy for the 19yo kid. I don't care if someone says "he's an adult" or you assume he's a spoiled rich kid - he was trusting in his dad to make a good decision and protect him and now he's dead. I doubt very much that he's evil or deserving; at worst, he was probably spoiled but I'm guessing that unless they all died instantly, he was a pretty scared dude...(and his dad was experiencing terrible regret).

- I do think they're dead. Full respect to the search teams for keeping going (I know from previous jobs that the "96 hrs Oxygen" is based on MANY things. Its not like they're alive at 96.0 hours then dead at 96.1 hours, OK? CO2, O2, temperature, water...all factors for how long they'll live.) But honestly, I think something mechanical happened and the thing imploded or had a severe leak that killed them very quickly. I've been in trainers that simulate water leaks at very shallow depths and I've seen what 3000psi leaks do to nearly material, so anything in that range, in that size tube, is catastrophic. THere's no pumps, no escape.

- According to one article, the sub is supposed to have a fail-safe release mechanism that allows it to re-surface (probably something that releases the ballast). If that's the case, either it failed too, or it imploded/flooded and the release mechanism would have no effect.

- If it was on the surface, the P-3/P-8's would find it; their radar's are designed to pickup periscopes (filter out wave reflections) so as long as portions of the sub was above the water, it should have been found.

- Even when its found, they need an ROV and hoist mechanism to lift it up. People are referring to the "weight" but that's not important, its how 'buoyant' it is now (which will be most affected by whether its flooded or not). If it miraculously is NOT flooded, then its actual weight only matters when it needs to be pulled out of
the water.

- Just watched the latest USCG press conference. Good job by the Captain, IMO. The bit about classifying sounds was interesting, but the Woods Hole guy is (obviously) correct - what things sound like below water (remember the sonobuoys that picked up the sounds are at the surface of the water, and sound travels in all sorts of funky ways due to pressure & temp gradients) can be very distorted to the human ear. I've heard all sorts of ringing & clicking underwater that was biologics. Banging on a hull may not be as clear as you'd think from Hollywood...

Whelp, I"ve spent yet another 15 min on this subject that I really don't have to spare...

Sad event. Pooning is much safer, less expensive, and more fun. That’s why I’m here.

 

[Forum mod]

There is some karmic justice that the CEO who approved/led the construction of a shoddy and ill equipped submersible is one of those dead because he didn't want to spend the right amount of money to make it safer. I'll say this for Bezos, at least he's gone ahead and ridden in his own rocket. When you have billions, spending millions to make sure you don't die or kill your customers seems like the least you can do.

 

[jgg]

A pick up truck weights ~6000 lbs., pressure at the Titanic depth is 6000 lbs. per square inch. That's like parking a pick up on your thumb nail.