Why Canada is smart of have supply management for dairy industry

[JimDandy]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/21/business/milk-industry-dean-foods/index.html

Is is very predictable that the US governement will be forced to buy out a significant number of dairy farmers (as they have done many times in the past) so that the remaining farmers can make a meager living.

I remember was I was still living on my dad's farm, the US government bought cows from farmers and then tatooed them to ensure that other US farmers could not use these cows to produce milk. This was great for Canadian farmers who imported these cows for very low prices a and then used them to produce milk for the Canadian market.

JD

 

[overdone]

their corrupt practices don't make us look smart

we pay more for milk/cheese, eggs too, because they are protected by the gov't racket

we get less choice, specially in Cheese with the ridiculous duties

we are basically ensuring a small cartel of dairy/egg farmers get a certain income, guaranteed buy out if they choose to exit

the only thing in it for Canadians is higher costs

there is no incentive to innovate, change their practices, modernize

all it did was concentrate small family farms across the country to large ones, which are all virtually in the vote rich provinces of Ont and Que

which makes this whole bunch of BS Communism about politics, not the consumer, like too many other industries in this Banana Republic we're becoming

there are better ways to regulate the market than the way it is now

we have a deal with the EU now, how many of our dairy farmers are trying to enter that?

why would they bother, they don't need to

average dairy farmer is making a top 15% income

 

[badbadboy]

Cheap American milk is gross. I don’t care if it’s cheaper and won’t drink anything with Bovine growth hormones.

Their whole system is dependent upon other countries wanting it. Their philosophy is to overproduce and flood the market with their cheap milk products.

#buyCanadianMilk

 

[wetnose]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/21/business/milk-industry-dean-foods/index.html

Is is very predictable that the US governement will be forced to buy out a significant number of dairy farmers (as they have done many times in the past) so that the remaining farmers can make a meager living.

JD

When US farmers make money: we need smaller government!

When US farmers lose money: we need the government to save us!

 

[JimDandy]

their corrupt practices don't make us look smart

we pay more for milk/cheese, eggs too, because they are protected by the gov't racket

we get less choice, specially in Cheese with the ridiculous duties

we are basically ensuring a small cartel of dairy/egg farmers get a certain income, guaranteed buy out if they choose to exit

the only thing in it for Canadians is higher costs

there is no incentive to innovate, change their practices, modernize

all it did was concentrate small family farms across the country to large ones, which are all virtually in the vote rich provinces of Ont and Que

which makes this whole bunch of BS Communism about politics, not the consumer, like too many other industries in this Banana Republic we're becoming

there are better ways to regulate the market than the way it is now

we have a deal with the EU now, how many of our dairy farmers are trying to enter that?

why would they bother, they don't need to

average dairy farmer is making a top 15% income

A Canadian dairy farmer needs literally millions of $$$ invested in their farm in order to have any hope to be profitiable. They also need to get up at 5 am and are not finished until 8 pm SEVEN DAYS A WEEK!!! With that kind of investment and those working hours, they damn well derserve to be in the top 15%. Having said that, most Canadian dairy farmers live very modest lives until they can finally affford to retire and sell the farm.

You could not be more wrong about Canadian farmers not needing be competitive. You would not believe how many Canadian farmers go out of business every year for numerous reasons. If they don't stay competitive, they will go out of business. And I know that many Canadian farmers, if they can qualify for the loans required, are trying to buy robots like the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nWJYYCKnik

And as for "there are better ways to regulate the market than the way it is now" please elaborate. I'm sure the US would be very happy to learn what those might be since clearly every scheme they have tried to date has failed!

JD

 

[Mr.Robot]

A Canadian dairy farmer needs literally millions of $$$ invested in their farm in order to have any hope to be profitiable. They also need to get up at 5 am and are not finished until 8 pm SEVEN DAYS A WEEK!!! With that kind of investment and those working hours, they damn well derserve to be in the top 15%. Having said that, most Canadian dairy farmers live very modest lives until they can finally affford to retire and sell the farm.

You could not be more wrong about Canadian farmers not needing be competitive. You would not believe how many Canadian farmers go out of business every year for numerous reasons. If they don't stay competitive, they will go out of business. And I know that many Canadian farmers, if they can qualify for the loans required, are trying to buy robots like the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nWJYYCKnik

And as for "there are better ways to regulate the market than the way it is now" please elaborate. I'm sure the US would be very happy to learn what those might be since clearly every scheme they have tried to date has failed!

JD

The investment required in a dairy or poultry farm is huge, mostly because of the price they need to pay for the right to produce and sell the product, ie) the price of the Quota.

Why is the quota so expensive? Because there is a huge demand for production quota. The supply of quota is limited by the boards made up of producers who already own quota. When demand exceeds supply, the price hikes up. Why is the demand for quota so high? Because producing milk and poultry in Canada at a guaranteed price which ensures a profit is basically a license to print money. Meanwhile, those farmers who do not benefit from supply management, those producing grain, hogs, and beef, operate at the whims of the market in a boom and bust cycle.

The result of supply management is overpriced produce for Canadian families, and the result is the poor in the inner city feed their children Pepsi and Coke instead of milk because it is cheaper.

 

[overdone]

A Canadian dairy farmer needs literally millions of $$$ invested in their farm in order to have any hope to be profitiable. They also need to get up at 5 am and are not finished until 8 pm SEVEN DAYS A WEEK!!! With that kind of investment and those working hours, they damn well derserve to be in the top 15%. Having said that, most Canadian dairy farmers live very modest lives until they can finally affford to retire and sell the farm.

You could not be more wrong about Canadian farmers not needing be competitive. You would not believe how many Canadian farmers go out of business every year for numerous reasons. If they don't stay competitive, they will go out of business. And I know that many Canadian farmers, if they can qualify for the loans required, are trying to buy robots like the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nWJYYCKnik

And as for "there are better ways to regulate the market than the way it is now" please elaborate. I'm sure the US would be very happy to learn what those might be since clearly every scheme they have tried to date has failed!

JD

lol, you clearly have never seen a dairy farm in Europe

the cows milk themselves basically, it's automated, they have machines that can feed them too, lol

no dairy farmers go out of business, that right there shows your delusions on the subject

even if they stop being able to operate due to a fire or some other situation where they lose all their herd

they still have their quota to sell, which for the average dairy farmer 80 some cows

would make them instant millionaires

https://business.financialpost.com/...ick-canadas-2-6-billion-dairy-cartel-er-habit

it's only been around since the 70's, oh wait, which commie gov't was in power then? huh? a Turdeau

same with chicken farmers

saw a new program yrs ago, guy in BC had the infrastructure ready to go, wanted to set up, couldn't

cause he couldn't get anyone to sell him the 4+million Quota worth of Chickens he would need to make a profitable go of it

farmers go down, sure, grain, farmers, part time job

or do you think they work 24/7 during the other 6 months?

growing season, May-Oct-Nov at best, which during that time they work what, 2 months? the rest they watch it grow

it's math, it's become a part time job, expensive one, but part time

no farmer works 2000/hrs a year

even with cattle/hogs

or do you think they are still out there on the range watching them?

or do they sit in the barn all day reading stories to them?


I've had relatives who are farmers, live beside them for years

none of them are type A personalities, gogogo lol

they work hard when they need to, but it's a lifestyle, like other jobs, no one is forced to do it




regulation, simple, just like Taxis

which the gov't has fucked up by limiting it to a monopoly for those involved

why do you think UBER is a thing now

if you can pass the test, have a car that's up to safety, give them a licence, let the market sort it out

Dairy, same thing, they would still have the duties to stop dumping, like other industries do

you wouldn't have pizza places importing meat with cheese to get around the over-priced cheese products here

there is a company in the east that wanted to start a yogurt business, can't cause they can't get the milk needed




no one wins with a monopoly, no one

look at the booze business in Canada, virtually every Province controls it, Alberta, Que are only ones who aren't in the racket of protection to the extent of sticking it up the consumers ass without even a reach around

Telecoms

Healthcare

Provincial trade

we are paying billions so a select few can profit

there are better ways to do it, this stupid argument that

someone else is more corrupt, that's why we can gloat over our incompetence is sad

we have our own donald trump

we have our own dysfunctional system, we should be striving for better not looking to the Jones to compare ourselves with

 

[overdone]

our country is becoming even more of a joke under Trudeau

while all parties are supporting this joke

his policies of social rights over economic realities are doing real damage

recent articles

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...canadian-capital-growth-is-near-a-60-year-low

Canadian capital growth near 60 year low

https://www.bloombergquint.com/busi...siness-is-job-one-for-trudeau-s-finance-chief


these are the type of results from policies like supply management

gov't over regulation

we're becoming a 3rd world country economically, it's a slow slide but it's coming

https://edmontonsun.com/opinion/columnists/gunter-hey-quebec-dont-bite-the-hand-that-feeds

look at the GDP numbers of Que/Ont

compared to the backwater inbred states listed, lol

we have nothing to brag about!!!

 

[wetnose]

Cheap American milk is gross. I don’t care if it’s cheaper and won’t drink anything with Bovine growth hormones.

Their whole system is dependent upon other countries wanting it. Their philosophy is to overproduce and flood the market with their cheap milk products.

#buyCanadianMilk

Actually I believe WA state diary is free from BGH. Anybody can confirm?

 

[badbadboy]

Actually I believe WA state diary is free from BGH. Anybody can confirm?

You are correct. It’s been years since I bought milk down there.

https://wadairy.org/ensuring-product-safety/

Still, I’ll continue to buy Canadian milk.

 

[JimDandy]

lol, you clearly have never seen a dairy farm in Europe

the cows milk themselves basically, it's automated, they have machines that can feed them too, lol

no dairy farmers go out of business, that right there shows your delusions on the subject

even if they stop being able to operate due to a fire or some other situation where they lose all their herd

they still have their quota to sell, which for the average dairy farmer 80 some cows

would make them instant millionaires

https://business.financialpost.com/...ick-canadas-2-6-billion-dairy-cartel-er-habit

it's only been around since the 70's, oh wait, which commie gov't was in power then? huh? a Turdeau

same with chicken farmers

saw a new program yrs ago, guy in BC had the infrastructure ready to go, wanted to set up, couldn't

cause he couldn't get anyone to sell him the 4+million Quota worth of Chickens he would need to make a profitable go of it

farmers go down, sure, grain, farmers, part time job

or do you think they work 24/7 during the other 6 months?

growing season, May-Oct-Nov at best, which during that time they work what, 2 months? the rest they watch it grow

it's math, it's become a part time job, expensive one, but part time

no farmer works 2000/hrs a year

even with cattle/hogs

or do you think they are still out there on the range watching them?

or do they sit in the barn all day reading stories to them?


I've had relatives who are farmers, live beside them for years

none of them are type A personalities, gogogo lol

they work hard when they need to, but it's a lifestyle, like other jobs, no one is forced to do it




regulation, simple, just like Taxis

which the gov't has fucked up by limiting it to a monopoly for those involved

why do you think UBER is a thing now

if you can pass the test, have a car that's up to safety, give them a licence, let the market sort it out

Dairy, same thing, they would still have the duties to stop dumping, like other industries do

you wouldn't have pizza places importing meat with cheese to get around the over-priced cheese products here

there is a company in the east that wanted to start a yogurt business, can't cause they can't get the milk needed




no one wins with a monopoly, no one

look at the booze business in Canada, virtually every Province controls it, Alberta, Que are only ones who aren't in the racket of protection to the extent of sticking it up the consumers ass without even a reach around

Telecoms

Healthcare

Provincial trade

we are paying billions so a select few can profit

there are better ways to do it, this stupid argument that

someone else is more corrupt, that's why we can gloat over our incompetence is sad

we have our own donald trump

we have our own dysfunctional system, we should be striving for better not looking to the Jones to compare ourselves with

No where in your random stream of unconciuosness is the alternative you alluded to in your first post. How do we prevent the never ending cycles of feast and famine that is the US dairy industry without supply management?

Its like saying there are problems with democracy without coming up with a better alternative.

JD

 

[TheodoreLino]

A Canadian dairy farmer needs literally millions of $$$ invested in their farm in order to have any hope to be profitiable. They also need to get up at 5 am and are not finished until 8 pm SEVEN DAYS A WEEK!!! With that kind of investment and those working hours, they damn well derserve to be in the top 15%. Having said that, most Canadian dairy farmers live very modest lives until they can finally affford to retire and sell the farm.

You could not be more wrong about Canadian farmers not needing be competitive. You would not believe how many Canadian farmers go out of business every year for numerous reasons. If they don't stay competitive, they will go out of business. And I know that many Canadian farmers, if they can qualify for the loans required, are trying to buy robots like the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nWJYYCKnik

And as for "there are better ways to regulate the market than the way it is now" please elaborate. I'm sure the US would be very happy to learn what those might be since clearly every scheme they have tried to date has failed!

JD

Well, I know at least one option to increase sales. You can do the same as any other industry - go online. As far as I know Globalgraphics she makes good web projects for the industry. You can manage your deliveries using online sales directly. I understand that this also requires investment, but it seems to me that this will give a good result. If the government influenced the reduction of the credit rate for farmers, they would easily find funds for development.

 

[Deguire]

I have read that - please correct me if this is wrong - when a dairy farmer buys a cow, he also has to buy a licence (permit? quota?) of $40,000 for that one cow. I have no idea how much milk a cow produces but I do understand simple arithmetic. The first 40,000 litres of milk that cow produces contain a dollar per litre penalty. It does nothing for the farmer but the consumer is getting hosed. A tiny, tiny proportion of Canadians are dairy farmers but our spineless politicians won't go near this one so 33 million consumers are getting hosed. This is insane.

 

[JimDandy]

You've got a country with a tiny population, in relation to our closest neighbour - who has always had a goal in mind of controlling the entire continent (Manifest Destiny). If there are 100 farmers in Canada, there are 100,000 in the US - who's going to control whom?

Exactly! Without supply maangement and with an open border for US milk products, Canadian farmers would be put out of business in a matter of a few years.
JD

 

[JimDandy]

I have read that - please correct me if this is wrong - when a dairy farmer buys a cow, he also has to buy a licence (permit? quota?) of $40,000 for that one cow.

That is wrong.

A farmer buys quota totally independant of any cow. Once the farmer buys the quota, which is sold like stocks on a online market to the highest bidder, he/she owns that quota until he/she sells it (the quota, not the cow!). So while a cow, under some circumstances, might only last a few years, the quota lasts forever.

Also cows , just like human women, only produce milk for so long, and are usually "dried off" for about 2 months before their next calf is born. Farmers usually aim to have a cow reproduce every 12 months, so this means under perfect conditions the cow produces milk only 10 months a year. And for several of those 10 months they produce a relatively small amount of milk as the cow naturally prepares to be dried off. While the cow is not producing, the farmer must still meet the requirements set by the quota he/she owns. Not normally a problem since a successful farmer will have some cows producing milk every month of the year to meet their quota demands. Btw, the farmer can lose quota if he/she fails to meet the quota requirements he/she owns, which is just one of many ways that poor farmers go out of business, despite what is stated in the ramblng prose of overdone above.

JD

 

[sensualsixty]

It seems like JimDandy knows something about the dairy industry, unlike some who have opinions but limited knowledge. When I moved to rural Ontario nearly 50 years ago I had two neighbours who were dairy farmers. When I left, I had only one neighbour who had a dairy farm. The absent farmer just was not efficient, and was told to get out of the business. I always admired the energy and drive of the successful dairy farmer. I did not envy his 12 to 14 hour days, seven days a week.

In my travels, I compared the neat, well maintained dairy farms in Ontario with the run down operations I saw in New York state. In New York state (and elsewhere in the U.S.) it tended to be feast or famine (mostly famine) for many farmers. You hear about huge U.S. farm subsidies, but most of them go to the large corporate conglomerates, not to the family farm.

sensualsixty

 

[bcpete1]

That is wrong.

A farmer buys quota totally independant of any cow. Once the farmer buys the quota, which is sold like stocks on a online market to the highest bidder, he/she owns that quota until he/she sells it (the quota, not the cow!). So while a cow, under some circumstances, might only last a few years, the quota lasts forever.

Also cows , just like human women, only produce milk for so long, and are usually "dried off" for about 2 months before their next calf is born. Farmers usually aim to have a cow reproduce every 12 months, so this means under perfect conditions the cow produces milk only 10 months a year. And for several of those 10 months they produce a relatively small amount of milk as the cow naturally prepares to be dried off. While the cow is not producing, the farmer must still meet the requirements set by the quota he/she owns. Not normally a problem since a successful farmer will have some cows producing milk every month of the year to meet their quota demands. Btw, the farmer can lose quota if he/she fails to meet the quota requirements he/she owns, which is just one of many ways that poor farmers go out of business, despite what is stated in the ramblng prose of overdone above.

JD

JD - not really wrong the 40K, is more like 22-24K. Quota goes by pound of butterfat, and it will cost you about 22-24K in quota for a cows production. Like many things supply management did what it was intended to when it started about 50 years ago (fair income to farmer), but also like many things gets skewed when there have been no changes in 50 years either. A chicken is about $200.00 per bird (meat/broiler). Existing producers can afford the high price because got theirs cheap. A similar comparison is what a taxi licence went for couple of years back before UBER (if we will ever get it here) and the like. Too much for quota currently.

But also JD farmers do not get up at 5 AM and work until 8 PM 365 days of the year. Most dairy farmers have not milked a cow in a long time either. Can you say Mexican farm workers? And also robotic milkers - lots out in the valley. May in spring and fall when planting corn / harvesting. How do I know this? Been there and done that (Grew up on dairy farm in Fraser Valley). Must say the commute from the house to the barn was sweet - 3 minutes - unless played longer with the dog.

 

[Deguire]

That is wrong.

A farmer buys quota totally independant of any cow. Once the farmer buys the quota, which is sold like stocks on a online market to the highest bidder, he/she owns that quota until he/she sells it (the quota, not the cow!). So while a cow, under some circumstances, might only last a few years, the quota lasts forever.

JD

Thank you for the clarification, JimD. (Yup, I'm a city boy) So it sounds like the main point is still valid. The farmer buys his quota which is just like a capital investment in any other business. He needs to get a return on investment - of course - and some portion of that that is included in every litre of milk sold. Again, this does nothing for the farmer but 33 million consumers are paying too much for their dairy products. Why should they? This has nothing to do with American milk or open borders.

 

[80watts]

First of all, the American governments have put money (subsidies) into their Agriculture for a long, they did this to break the Russian Economy by flooding Europe with cheap grain and causing Russia to starve.
The industries in Canada that get subsidies and that have monopolies are there to protect Canadian interests. If they weren't there for dairy farmers, the cheap stuff from the states gets dumped on us and eventually the dairy farms fail, and now we are dependant on another country for our dairy products... Therefore we end up supporting the American farmers etc.... our money goes from Canada to the US.

Walk into a grocery store, and about 17/20 of all shelves contain unhealthy foods. Either containing too much sugar or carbohydrates (all man made, not natural sources of food) or too much salt. Alot of this unhealthy food comes to us Canadians thru licence vendors in Canada, where the raw ingredients come from Canada, its made in Canada, but the profit goes to the states. There are no Ma/Pa big grocery stores left... Its all big companies like Cdn Superstore, Safeway, Save on Foods, Walmart, etc. Most of our fresh food comes from California in the winter.

This buy within 100 miles for food is shit. People will sooner start up a grow op (MJ) sooner than grow vegebles, because pot is more economical for them than veggies. Kinda like poppies in Afghanistan....

Although in Montreal they have roof top gardens to grow food locally (which I think is good), but its not as cheap a paying a Mexican immigrant to pick veggies in the field in the southern states.

So maybe they should have a law that to sale food, you have to get 40% of your product within 100 miles within Canada. Any new buildings must have a veggie plot on roof....

But f'en people are too cheap, and greedy!!!! to let stuff like that happen.....

I remember in the 90's there was a story in the paper about people that would buy their kid pop instead of milk because it was cheaper (mind you the mother and father were not well educated).....

 

[overdone]

in the ramblng prose of overdone above. JD

don't take my word for these "POOR FARMERS"

take stats Canada

or do you think they are unconscious ramblers too?

https://lfpress.com/opinion/columni...arly/wcm/5c4302ed-ee4e-46ce-a67f-8608d1078e94

go to the part where he uses their stats about net worth, poor farmers :drama:

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/c...armer-cheques-does-nothing-to-find-a-solution

this article is about getting money for nothing, due to the trade deals, which don't make them any more efficient, competitive

those poor farmers layball:

cause why would you try harder when you get paid not to

your delusions of dairy farmers working 14 hrs 7 days just shows how out of touch with reality you are

the only people benefiting from supply management is the 11,000 dairy farmers

along with the chicken farmers too

the wheat board went down, another of the moronic politicians rackets which benefited no one, the market didn't collapse, neither will these

you can still protect the Canadian market with duties/regulation

just like in all the other industries we have

we don't do it with beef farmers, hogs, grain anymore, never did with all the other crops

it's about politics, not policy, politics, cause they are all located in Ontario and Quebec mainly

where the most seats are

your excuses are just that, excuses to protect the few over the many

they don't even try to export, that would require effort

which they don't have to adjust for, cause the status quo is making them quite comfortable compared to the average Canadian farmer, consumer

poor farmer, right, diary farmers aren't poor, facts, according to stats Canada

anyone who can count with their shoes/socks off could get there