Okay. So answer this, do I have rights because I pay taxes? Or do I have rights because the law says I have rights?
What makes you a Canadian?
- Thread starter 80watts
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Weird set of questioning that's trying to pinpoint a logically fallacious response.
1. For an immigrant, they do not get citizenship rights if they don't pay taxes. Therefore, for people such as myself, I have to pay my taxes to get my rights as a citizen. I have rights because I pay taxes.
2, For a citizen, paying taxes means you maintain your rights as granted to you by the charter. You stop paying taxes and you lose your freedom.
3. The law does not grant rights. It governs the extent by which a citizen with rights can exercise those rights.
Even immigrants in Canada have rights. Maybe not exactly all the same rights as a citizen, but they still have rights. A tourist visiting Canada has rights in Canada, maybe not the same rights as a citizen, but they do have rights. All those rights, have nothing to do with who pays taxes or not. Rights are guaranteed by our laws, and is not a function of if or how much taxes an individual pays. As a citizen I have voting rights, that right is mine regardless of whether I pay taxes or not. An unemployed citizen still has the right to vote. An 18 year old who's never had a job and never paid income tax can still vote, because the law, not the tax one pays has guaranteed that right to vote. Taxes and rights are unrelated, they exist separately. No Canadian citizen can ever be denied his/her rights based on whether or not they pay taxes. There is no such exchange in Canada for rights that are required. If someone has informed you that the taxes you pay guarantees your rights, that is incorrect: it's not factually correct and it is not philosophically correct.
If you are an immigrant with permanent residence status, you will become a Canadian citizen, if you want to, based on a number of factors, I believe it's usually amount of time spent in Canada, as long as you commit no crimes, etc. Your path to citizenship has nothing to do with the amount of taxes you pay. Being employed as a permanent resident will make the path to citizenship easier, and being employed means you pay income taxes - but those income taxes does not mean it's your payment for rights and/or citizenship. If you work you pay income tax, because the law says you have to pay income tax - that's all it is. If someone has told you that you must pay taxes to obtain rights, again, you have been given incorrect information.
They're called human rights. If you are not a citizen of Canada and you get kidnapped by terrorists, Canada doesn't care about you. If you are a citizen, the government will try to save you. But that's a very different discussion.
Also your rights aren't guaranteed as a tourist. You are guaranteed a legal procedure, but the Canadian government can do things to you that would be against the charter if done to a Canadian citizen.
Except social contract philsophy disagrees with you.
The country guarantees you rights. In exchange, you must submit to its laws and rules. Its laws say that you must pay taxes, or else go to jail. Therefore, you must pay taxes to to keep your freedom. You can't annex a section of the charter just to come up with a contrived argument to fit your agenda.
Find me one country that will not throw away your rights if you don't pay taxes and I'll be glad to continue arguing with you over this. Or find me a guy who will accept freeloaders in his house for life.
Try stop paying taxes for a year on a work visa, or failure to disclose your income on an investment immigration plan, and see what happens.
Yes, there are punishments in Canada for breaking laws. One law is that you must pay taxes. But that does not mean taxes are exchanged for freedom or rights. Using your exchange analogy, the appropriate analogy would be that you comply with the laws to avoid punishment. Whether that be laws about murder, assault, taxes or speed limits. In other words, if you violate a law, there may be a punishment. But again, the exchange is compliance to avoid punishment not taxes in exchange for rights.
Canada cannot throw away your rights for not paying taxes. There will be a penalty or punishment, that may include jail, but going to jail does not mean the Government is throwing away your rights. It's why we cannot torture or prisoners, because a person in jail still has rights. The prisoner has been denied their freedom for a period of time, but they have not lost their rights. Heck, a prisoner can still vote in Canada, because it's a right of citizenship, which stays with the citizen - even when that citizen is in jail.
I'm a citizen, if I don't disclose my income or pay taxes I can run afoul of income tax laws. You are not being treated any differently because you are an immigrant. But, whether you or I violate any tax laws does not mean Canada will "throw away your rights."
1. The rule of law is in the preamble. Which means you must follow laws to get your rights. If the law says you must pay taxes, then it means you actually have to pay taxes to receive rights. Your argument would be valid if we didn't have a charter, or that the charter didn't begin the way it does:
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
2. If you violate the laws, you have violated the charter, because the charter begins acknowledging that you must subscribe to its laws in order to get your rights. I don't know what you call it when you lose the right to freedom when you don't pay taxes. The laws are an instrument to limit your rights, not to guarantee them. The
You are particularly predisposed to arguing on semantics and admittedly at 2:56 in the morning I am less than mentally equipped to deal with you over word choices.
You interpret the charter however you like. I'd like to get back to the conversation at Hand about Canadian identity without dealing with some filibuster over irrelevant terminology and political philosophy.
You interpret the charter however you like. I'd like to get back to the conversation at Hand about Canadian identity without dealing with some filibuster over irrelevant terminology and political philosophy.
Sorry mate; following laws only ensure you won't break a law and thus avoid the penalty/punishment associated with breaking a particular law. Compliance in exchange for avoiding punishment.
And no, breaking a law does not necessarily mean one has violated the Charter. Most laws people must comply with are contained in the Criminal Code, which is not the Charter and legislation (like the Tax Act, which is also not part of the Charter).
Laws can guarantee rights, like our Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms, laws can tell us what we can't do, like the Criminal Code (i.e. Can't murder, can't assault, etc.) and laws can also tell us what we must do (i.e. The Tax Act, road safety laws like seatbelts).
And Canada was founded on three pillars, Rule of Law, Supremacy of Parliament and Divided Sovereignty.
You said you were an immigrant; and seem to allude that you are seeking citizenship. If you are seeking citizenship, please take some time to learn about Canada's laws, the concepts that form the basis of our rules and not simply try to apply political/philosophy theories. Theories are just theories, our laws and the principles underpinning them are not just theories but can actually be read, studied and researched. Just my opinion, but whether you are a citizen or hoping to become one, it's beneficial to understand our system of laws.
So what if you collect welfare, you don't pay income tax on that yet you still have rights?
Why don't you two just get a room as this bitch-slapping has NOTHING to do with the OP.
Me... Yes I pay Taxes.. BUT almost every country, province, state, district, city, club, ot organization have some sort of taxes... Nothing new or different there about being Canadian.
Distinctly Canadian
I don't have to carry a gun
I am friendly towards my neighbours
I dont brag about myself
I say sorry.. EH
I support my own culture over my neighbours culture. I accept others that may have different beliefs than me, and don't force them to change.. ie freedom of speech, religion.
I spell things the proper English way and the last letter in the alphabet it zed not zee.
I care for the environment.
Distinctly Canadian
I don't have to carry a gun
I am friendly towards my neighbours
I dont brag about myself
I say sorry.. EH
I support my own culture over my neighbours culture. I accept others that may have different beliefs than me, and don't force them to change.. ie freedom of speech, religion.
I spell things the proper English way and the last letter in the alphabet it zed not zee.
I care for the environment.
I am a citizen already. Been so for 21 years.
You complying with laws in exchange for rights is called a Social Contract. People don't follow laws to because they don't want to be in jail. They follow laws because there are more reasons to be outside of one. If the state gives you nothing in return for following its laws, you leave, because it's a losing trade. If prisoners had more rights and freedom then citizens, everyone would be murdering everyone. Canada isn't a punitive state but one built on positive affirmation - that the individual is left alone to their own designs so long as they follow the laws, which includes paying taxes.
There is no other duty that the Canadian citizen must do more flawlessly and religiously every year than to pay taxes. You don't do your taxes right, you get audited, lose your healthcare, get fined or go to jail.
Your whole argument - that taxes are defined by laws, that laws are not an instrument of duty, and that the duty to pay taxes isn't an wealth transfer as part of the social contract - falls apart in the real world. People leave Nigeria, China, Russia or Burkina Faso because their social contracts suck. They pay taxes and get nothing in security, rights or protection in return. So they take their money and sign a new contract with a country that guarantees their rights like UK, US or Canada. Taxes are absolutely a foundation of exchange for you to purchase your rights whether you like it or not. If you lose your freedom because you don't pay taxes, it means the state doesn't care about your rights because you have failed to fulfill your end of the social contract. These contracts come with more than just enshrined laws. They also come with environments for you to enjoy political stability, free enterprise, intellectual property protection, healthcare, security of environment and many others. The implicit rights the state gives you are financed by your duty to pay taxes.
Theories and political philosophy are the reasons that legitimacy of rule exists. You take things out of context and then slap broad spectrum arguments on them. You're arguing from the point of political philosophy while saying political philosophy is wrong. What?
Laws also, by definition, cannot guarantee you rights. The rule of law isn't about making sure you have all the rights you want. It's about limiting how much you can exercise your rights given to you by the Charter, which isn't law, but a constitution and an enshrined guarantee. The SCOC then interprets that constitution based on laws.
I don't wanna argue with you over what essentially is a non-issue and your interpretation of our charter, of which you are less than qualified to do so. Your definitions of so many terms here are either technically wrong or categorically wrong and trying to correct them is just moot. You also make strawman arguments over and over. Derailing fun posts and jests over stupid things like this benefits no one, like you claiming carbon taxes tax emissions rather than carbon content when the levy is on weight and not aerosol volume.
So we agree to disagree.
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The social assistance payments amounts are not taxable, but you must include them in your net income. ... the Canada Child Tax Benefit (CCTB), as well as; certain provincial or territorial tax credits and certain non-refundable tax credits.
I stand corrected. My knowledge of social welfare income is poor and made a wrong choice of words.
My point wasn't about not paying taxes because you can't. My point is that paying taxes was a fundamental part of the exchange between the state and the individual. If a social safety net exists for you, it's because it's implied that you will pay the state back in taxes when you are able, as you are enjoying a benefit of citizenship in a state that is financed by people who pay taxes. I digress.
