Food - its current state in our society

[FreeG]

Ms Erica's thread started to drift towards a lot of food-related posts, which I thought were very good. So to keep that thread from being hijacked into food-related posts, I thought it best to start a new one.

I'll kick it off: sugar. Why is it SO hard to find something WITHOUT sugar in it? Well, I know why - it (tends to) taste better, so consumers will purchase the product based on taste. Where I think producers screw up is related to how the body tastes things and how food taste testing is done, from what I read on some research on Pepsi vs Coke:

Remember those "blind" taste tests between Pepsi & Coke, where (depending on who was filming/editing) Pepsi was getting chosen? From what I recall, it was because in small quantities, the body will crave the sweeter choice. But if one increases the quantities, it can overwhelm the taste buds and people will tend to choose the less-sweet product.

So, I understand why companies will add sugar based on how they test things - if people are given smaller quantities and asked to compare, they'll tend to prefer the sweeter product (even if its not a "sweet" thing, like bread). But it frustrates me to no end on how much is present or that its present at all. If something isn't sweet enough, I'll add sugar (honey, Nutella, etc) myself. (But I usually don't - my favorite bread is what I make myself: flour, water, yeast, Kosher/sea salt. )

 

[sevenofnine]

food I think will not exist as we know it,
it will no longer contain animal product, it will all be manufactured in some lab,

they are already doing taste tests is this real hamburger or fake, and people can't tell.

I remember there was this law suit, apple juice, contained zero apple or anything made of apples
and that was the basis of the law suit apple juice should have apples in it, but this didn't

there is a big move in Europe to ban I think a pesticide or herbicide, its a carcinogenic it is in our food chain.
so we need to control what we eat, what we put into or on to our food,

so it will be grown and cultured in a lab, under laboratory conditions.
it is the only way to produce enough food for everyone and ensure its safety

 

[sybian]

It will sometimes surprise me how often I will get a PM about how food is produced and processed.
I obviously have some knowledge about the food industry, and further processing ,so I really don't mind, when someone has a legitimate concern,or questions....
I have seen a massive shift in the last decade towards better quality, or a more thoughtful choice about what a family is eating.
What is added ,or done to our food in the further processing is very alarming...if you want to eat with your health in mind, start with getting rid of the further processed foods.
If your going to buy a ham, buy a REAL ham, not a toupee ham full of nitrates, or if your going to marinate something, buy the raw meat and do it yourself, and avoid the prepackaged.
Buy a slow cooker and let it cook all day, not only is it better, but it's so tender,you can pull it apart, and use instead of tuna for days.
Some canned food is sealed with a vinyl liner and is cooked with that liner in place.....absolute poison.
Sugar is added to everything and over used, as well as food colouring, nitrates as a bonding agent for proteins, and the chemicals sprayed on vegetables or other foods to increase growth and yield....having said that, try and avoid plant life that is raised outside of North America.....there are places that use herbicides to grow the food that's sold here, that have been illegal for decades.
Try starting there with healthier eating.
.....and FreeG.....this is my own personal opinion, and I'm curious....rock salt is mined from absolute pure sources and has iodine added , with all the pollutants in the oceans, is sea salt a better alternative?

I raise grass fed beef that is fed on timber grass or wild grass that's never been sprayed, and I get a PM at least once a month to buy my product through this site alone.....ALL of my product is pre sold on contract.....I basically cannot raise enough to supply the demand, and I'm not small time.
You don't need to start by purchasing a quarter of grass fed....if your going to buy a steak at Costco or wherever.....start by buying a real steak, that's been air chilled and naturally aged, instead of one that's had 600 volts passed through it to artificially age it, and has some mystery goop inside the package to marinate it for you, that's produced in China.
I suppose my rule of thumb would be.....if it's more convenient for you, it's most likely not as good for you.
I would also say ,that I get enough chemicals in my system when I eat out, so at home ,I won't have it in my house.
You can't avoid it all the time.

Good on you my friend, for starting this thread.

 

[storm rider]

Food in it's state tonight for me is Rouladen served up with fondant potatoes and a thick slice of steamed cabbage.....last night it was pizza as I could not be bothered to cook after a 14 hour day at work.The pizza was good though as I did not cheap out and opt for crapulence like Little Ceasars.

SR

 

[Ms Erica Phoenix]

It will sometimes surprise me how often I will get a PM about how food is produced and processed.
I obviously have some knowledge about the food industry, and further processing ,so I really don't mind, when someone has a legitimate concern,or questions....
I have seen a massive shift in the last decade towards better quality, or a more thoughtful choice about what a family is eating.
What is added ,or done to our food in the further processing is very alarming...if you want to eat with your health in mind, start with getting rid of the further processed foods.
If your going to buy a ham, buy a REAL ham, not a toupee ham full of nitrates, or if your going to marinate something, buy the raw meat and do it yourself, and avoid the prepackaged.
Buy a slow cooker and let it cook all day, not only is it better, but it's so tender,you can pull it apart, and use instead of tuna for days.
Some canned food is sealed with a vinyl liner and is cooked with that liner in place.....absolute poison.
Sugar is added to everything and over used, as well as food colouring, nitrates as a bonding agent for proteins, and the chemicals sprayed on vegetables or other foods to increase growth and yield....having said that, try and avoid plant life that is raised outside of North America.....there are places that use herbicides to grow the food that's sold here, that have been illegal for decades.
Try starting there with healthier eating.
.....and FreeG.....this is my own personal opinion, and I'm curious....rock salt is mined from absolute pure sources and has iodine added , with all the pollutants in the oceans, is sea salt a better alternative?

I raise grass fed beef that is fed on timber grass or wild grass that's never been sprayed, and I get a PM at least once a month to buy my product through this site alone.....ALL of my product is pre sold on contract.....I basically cannot raise enough to supply the demand, and I'm not small time.
You don't need to start by purchasing a quarter of grass fed....if your going to buy a steak at Costco or wherever.....start by buying a real steak, that's been air chilled and naturally aged, instead of one that's had 600 volts passed through it to artificially age it, and has some mystery goop inside the package to marinate it for you, that's produced in China.
I suppose my rule of thumb would be.....if it's more convenient for you, it's most likely not as good for you.
I would also say ,that I get enough chemicals in my system when I eat out, so at home ,I won't have it in my house.
You can't avoid it all the time.

Good on you my friend, for starting this thread.

My grandfather was a butcher trained in England that once supplied the meat to most of the private homes on the West side of Vancouver between Cambie & Granville Street from King Edward Blvd to W 16th Avenue. When my family moved to White Rock, my father began shopping at Penguin Meats, & it's still where I prefer to buy my meat. My understanding is that the reason they have never ever been open on Sundays is that it is owned by devout 7th Day Adventists, & so their beef is slaughtered & butchered in very close accordance with Jewish dietary laws, not electrocuted.

 

[sevenofnine]

I get together once in awhile with some farmers from sask
they have told me you would be surprised how many tractors are running around at two o'clock in the morning, spraying their fields
organic is not necessary organic

and buy everything as local as you can,
in Calgary I think they said daily we get a train up from California or weekly can't remember but everything is picked weeks before you actually buy it in the store,

its picked early and sprayed yet again to maintain its freshness or ripen it.
you can actually taste the difference in food when you leave Calgary and go west. or south to where its produced

I like to go to Vancouver to just eat, the food does taste different.

 

[sybian]

Costco would need a 60 acre cooler just to age their hanging sides of beef for one week.
Electrocuting the beef, activates the enzymes to age it inside the packaging, giving the product a longer shelf life....eliminating the storage facility, and the cost.
Retail for most meat products is now set up that, the product is sold, and out of the store, before the animal has even been paid for.
Poultry products are flash frozen in liquid nitrogen,after cooling down in an ice bath for a few hours.....they can tumble a 12 pound turkey in a vat of nitrogen ,and freeze it in minutes.
There is now a huge movement with air chilling poultry, to get a better product. If you purchase some, you may notice far less water in the raw product.....they will add salt in the water to absorb weight, air chilling drains most of the water because it simply takes time.

 

[jgg]

My understanding is that the reason they have never ever been open on Sundays is that it is owned by devout 7th Day Adventists.

I believe S-dA's observe Saturday as their seventh day. They do have a high regard for diet and health.

 

[Ms Erica Phoenix]

I believe S-dA's observe Saturday as their seventh day. They do have a high regard for diet and health.

You're correct, on both counts.

 

[jgg]

You're correct, on both counts.

Once in awhile I get lucky.

 

[FreeG]

I find the topic incredibly interesting (and in many cases, quite alarming).

The long-term effects of pesticides and genetic modification is my current concern: I occasionally read scientific articles on impacts to insects from the pesticides used and how farmers get screwed by getting forced to buy certain strains of product. I understand both have been in use for quite some time, but my concern over GMO is there's no incentive to diversify the variety in fields. So, worse-case scenario, some viral or bacterial strain comes thru and starts wiping out large crops, the farmers with that crop are done - they don't have multiple varieties of oranges, say (and I recall that oranges is one of the foods that's suffering from issues, or maybe it was banana's...).

The effect of pesticides on bee's is another issue - the sudden bee colony collapse that first came in the news a few years ago got attributed to a variety of things, like the stress of colonies getting moved rapidly between fields. When studies started linking the collapses to certain pesticides, those companies agggressivly worked to dispute those findings.

I see the trend towards de-regulation (in the US, anyway) as terrifying. The only entity truly able to control the large agro businesses is the govt thru regulation. I don't see how farmers (especially the smaller ones, unless they can setup sustainable niche markets) can consistently fight them and most consumers don't care - I'd say the vast majority pay for food by price (I do too many times). Its also too complicated to simply blame the companies - they're driven by profit, which is driven by shareholders (including those of us who invest in the stock markets and want to see our retirement funds grow) and also driven by natural human tendencies. But rare is the company that purposefully reduces profit to "do the right thing", especially when it opens the door for a competitor to step in and get the upper hand.

 

[sybian]

I find the topic incredibly interesting (and in many cases, quite alarming).

The long-term effects of pesticides and genetic modification is my current concern: I occasionally read scientific articles on impacts to insects from the pesticides used and how farmers get screwed by getting forced to buy certain strains of product. I understand both have been in use for quite some time, but my concern over GMO is there's no incentive to diversify the variety in fields. So, worse-case scenario, some viral or bacterial strain comes thru and starts wiping out large crops, the farmers with that crop are done - they don't have multiple varieties of oranges, say (and I recall that oranges is one of the foods that's suffering from issues, or maybe it was banana's...).

The effect of pesticides on bee's is another issue - the sudden bee colony collapse that first came in the news a few years ago got attributed to a variety of things, like the stress of colonies getting moved rapidly between fields. When studies started linking the collapses to certain pesticides, those companies agggressivly worked to dispute those findings.

I see the trend towards de-regulation (in the US, anyway) as terrifying. The only entity truly able to control the large agro businesses is the govt thru regulation. I don't see how farmers (especially the smaller ones, unless they can setup sustainable niche markets) can consistently fight them and most consumers don't care - I'd say the vast majority pay for food by price (I do too many times). Its also too complicated to simply blame the companies - they're driven by profit, which is driven by shareholders (including those of us who invest in the stock markets and want to see our retirement funds grow) and also driven by natural human tendencies. But rare is the company that purposefully reduces profit to "do the right thing", especially when it opens the door for a competitor to step in and get the upper hand.

The mass die off of bee populations is very alarming, and there is a massive agricultural business taking place in just transporting, and placing bees in farming areas that need them.
We have come to a threshold,that we must transport countless bees, to pollinate our food sources....and big business thinks it's great because it's very lucrative....nobody is thinking that there may be something very wrong.
Chemicals are sold to farmers through professional sales people working for the big chemical companies, or those companies who represent them.....they have quotas, and I know I've even heard their line of bullshit , just to sell a product.
When a chemical company tests its own poisonous product, and submits the results, always leaning on " how fucking safe it is"....the test results are skewed towards profits, or the bottom line.
I once had a salesman look me in the eye ,, and said if you put two drops of his pesticide in a glass of water, it was so safe he'd drink it, and rumour had it he did just that a few times.....that was twenty years ago, he's been dead of a rare cancer about ten years now.

What I find interesting is that after the large culling in BC of apple trees ,over a decade ago....there is now a huge demand for heritage apples. They are grafting old world stock, onto crab apple roots to ensure the survival of the species.
....and believe it or not, the market is apple cider ,sold to the 20 to 30 year olds, and it is a massive target market.
The cider industry say they may not keep up with the supply and demand of the non GMO apples for another 25 years.
This younger generation that gets called entitled, and spoiled, is the next demographic that will go without, to afford healthier food...or drink in this case.

 

[FreeG]

The western medical industry is complacent. Doctors and nurses get minimal nutrition training. And it’s bullshit, at least the last time I was in school. I will soon see if it has changed at all.

The Canada Food Guide Pyramid is a joke. And what they serve in the average hospital to sick patients is alarming. And disgusting. Considering the amount of money that goes to pharmaceuticals in the hospitals, it frustrates me how they cut corners with meals. And when a patient has diet restrictions.., diabetics get fed chemicals, and good luck getting fed at all if you have celiac disease. When I was at VGH last year, I hobbled down to Whole Foods and fed myself.

Too true. And my experience with doctors (good friends, mind you) are they have the God/Goddess complex and believe they are expert in everything. So they quickly & easily give advice to people (who may not question a doctor or do independent research) that may run counter to what that person's body really needs or current research. Rare is the doctor I find who has the humility to say "I'm not sure, let's look that up!"

I agree about the food pyramid - again, every *body* is different and benefits from a different mix of foods. The diet fads that come & go can easily help one set of people but are not the answer to everyone (tho they get touted as such).

Related, what I find very interesting these days (tho not the most pleasant stuff to read while eating, ironically) is the part that fecal bacteria plays in such a huge symbiotic slice of your life: physically, mentally, emotionally.... The more research I read, the more like science fiction it sounds!

 

[sybian]

I think with the alcohol it's more getting away from GMO, than health....if your going to get shitfaced , why do it with chemicals, when a natural source does the same thing, for a couple dollars more?
Not to mention the product is so mainstream, it is on the shelf right next to the slightly cheaper chemical booze.
We have been genetically modifying animals for thousands of years, and plants for maybe a few hundred....but with today's technology,we are capable of crossing a salmons genetics with a tomato,to extend its shelf life.
I believe it is that capability, that scares your average consumers.

 

[FreeG]

I think with the alcohol it's more getting away from GMO, than health....if your going to get shitfaced , why do it with chemicals, when a natural source does the same thing, for a couple dollars more?
Not to mention the product is so mainstream, it is on the shelf right next to the slightly cheaper chemical booze.
We have been genetically modifying animals for thousands of years, and plants for maybe a few hundred....but with today's technology,we are capable of crossing a salmons genetics with a tomato,to extend its shelf life.
I believe it is that capability, that scares your average consumers.

Totally agree (this thread may get a little boring if we all just agree with each other but hopefully others are quietly learning too!). Probably my favourite book of all time, Jared Diamonds “Guns Germs and Steel” talks about crop development. I think the example he gives is strawberries: the ancient wild variety were tiny, but over 100’s of years of selective breeding/pollinating? they’ve come up with the monster strawberries that would feed a family...each!

My fear with GMO isn’t the end goals - humans are infinitely curious and capable of amazing developments. But also have a terrible history of failing to account for unforeseen consequences. Manipulating a genetic code - what sort of proteins develop that could have long-term health implications? I believe there’s already a correlation betweeen increased pesticide usage and plastics and increases in some health issues (some % of the increase is undoubtedly increased awareness and other factors). I’ve read sporadic writings on the subject but nothing at the Science or Nature journal level yet (the two gold standards, usually, for research).

 

[sybian]

Before the fires I had acres of wild strawberry plants, they are no bigger than a pencil eraser.
Wild raspberries are only two feet high and the berries are about 3/4 the size of the ones you have down there....I know that around 1900, the Russian immigrants came up here and took them back to chilliwack.

There is a First Nations reserve, if I remember right there was a population of about 200 people ...Someplace on the prairies that co- exists next to a plastic plant, that's been there for decades.... It may have been a "16 by 9 " report, but I'm not sure.
All the children born there are female, except two boys, and they had deformed genitalia, and were sterile.
The level of breast and ovarian cancers were 5 times higher than average .
High levels of BPA used to keep plastics soft were found in all the drinking water wells.
There is some evidence that BPA in plastics ,is responsible for the drop in sperm count over the last 45 years, but the WHO didn't report it ,because it was worldwide and became the new norm.
Although it is being monitored, the sperm count continues its slow decline.....worldwide.
Plastics have never been tested for the storage of food, it just became the standard, even though they know it promotes estrogen levels, and estrogen driven cancers.
Fifty years ago, men were almost twice as fertile, and some scientists say, if this drop continues it could be a extinction event, as there won't be any men, or fertile men, available to repopulate the species in a few hundred years.
That may be a doomsday theory, but it may have some credibility.

 

[Bridge]

This is an excellent thread and underlines my feeling that I should grow as many fruits and vegetables in my back yard as possible and buy local when I run out.

 

[westwoody]

Jared Diamonds “Guns Germs and Steel” talks about crop development. I think the example he gives is strawberries: the ancient wild variety were tiny, but over 100’s of years of selective breeding/pollinating? they’ve come up with the monster strawberries that would feed a family...each!
....I’ve read sporadic writings on the subject but nothing at the Science or Nature journal level yet (the two gold standards, usually, for research).

The Journal for Sports Nutrition is very interesting.
The abstracts alone are very informative. There is a lot of good data on low Carb diets, which convinced me to try keto. One study found up to 50% increases in fat burning for same exercise on low Carb vs standard diet. This goes against the old food pyramid nonsense. I think carbs are the main problem in modern diets. So much modern food is just carbs devoid of any nutritional value, eg alcohol, French fries, soft drinks.

I like Jared Diamond too. Selective breeding to get bigger berries is fine. Gene splicing and inserting DNA from other species is bad. I do not want something that is half strawberry half God knows what.

 

[sevenofnine]

I remember I spent a few summers on a chicken farm,
it was eight weeks from day old to them being slaughtered I went to the plant once to watch, interesting how everything is done,
they were electrocuted and this was fifty some years ago,

any way, I remember the time is now down to six weeks, according to a news story I read, six weeks till your kitchen table,
and with in a year they hope to drop another year off of that.


you wonder sometimes where all the food comes from, millions and millions of people how do we feed them.

 

[sybian]

I listen to my body. I cut out gmos, gluten, processed foods years ago. I’ve been continuing to tweak my diet since then. I naturally found myself happy on low carb diet so I’ve been taking it further now on a strict Keto diet. I bought ketostrips to monitor my levels so I do it safely.

The body stores toxins in fat. Once upon a time, I lived off crap food so I know some of those toxins still remain. I want to flush it all out of my system.

Hence the alternative use of organic coffee?

In all seriousness....what are keto strips?