What the Hell is Going on in Alberta?

[phreak]

Following the Supreme Court ruling in December all the provinces practically stopped prosecution on prostitution related charges until the laws are rewritten. The only exception is Alberta where the Justice Minister suggested to prosecute (persecute?) 'men who buy sex from prostitutes': http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/A...d+pursue+johns+prostitutes/9468321/story.html

How the hell is it possible? Paying for sex has never been a crime in Canada, and the criminal code is exactly the same in any Canadian province, so there is no way Alberta can come up with its own criminal code. Still Alberta Justice Minister has publicly announced that he will direct prosecutors to charge law abiding citizens with a non-existent 'crime'. And he can actually do it without being impeached, possibly arrested and prosecuted himself? Can anybody clarify it for me?

 

[phreak]

Apparently he, his wife and his pastor havve gotten together along with the typical right wing agenda. Pious religious bastards.

I understand that's how he feels about this issue. That's his right. But using his position as the Justice Minister to persecute 100% innocent law abiding taxpayers cannot be legitimate. This is really serious. What can be done to get this guy arrested/prosecuted?

 

[phreak]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[VanessaofBC]

I have a feeling the AB JM is probably buddies with Harper.

 

[phreak]

Guys, whether the Supreme Court decision covers men (clients) or not, and whether the old provisions can still be enforced is irrelevant - men can't be prosecuted for the fact of paying for sex under the OLD provisions. It's just not an offence according to the criminal code, and has never been. Men, who pay for sex are innocent. Period. So when the Justice Minister deliberately direct prosecutors to punish knowingly innocent people he is committing a serious offence. What makes it worse, he is doing so by abusing his power. How come RCMP didn't press charges against him?

When it comes to the Nordic Model, the is no way it can be implemented in Canada: it would go against some fundamental stuff like consenting adults.

 

[HankQuinlan]

Guys, whether the Supreme Court decision covers men (clients) or not, and whether the old provisions can still be enforced is irrelevant - men can't be prosecuted for the fact of paying for sex under the OLD provisions. It's just not an offence according to the criminal code, and has never been. Men, who pay for sex are innocent. Period. So when the Justice Minister deliberately direct prosecutors to punish knowingly innocent people he is committing a serious offence. What makes it worse, he is doing so by abusing his power. How come RCMP didn't press charges against him?

When it comes to the Nordic Model, the is no way it can be implemented in Canada: it would go against some fundamental stuff like consenting adults.

Sure it can. "Consent" can't be a factor when you are a victim of exploitation by men. No woman with options would ever, ever consent to such an arrangement. They are all victims, and need to be protected.

Sorry, but this is the thought process used. It uses the language of the radical feminists, yet meets the moral needs of the right wing. It is perfect, and it will happen. Of course, women need to be given options to get out of their tawdry lives, so the legislation will also include some framework (likely paltry) designed to help wayward women gain skills, etc. But the main problem is the evil men with no conscience who exploit women in these dire circumstances, and they will be punished. Of course, they are not "innocent." A long-time injustice will be addressed.

That is how it will be addressed to the public. Your daughters will no longer be exploited by drooling, perverted rings of traffickers. It will be a shining example to the world, just like Sweden and Iceland are. Everyone will join hands and sing "Kumbaya."

"Oh," you say, "here's a good bit of evidence that shows you are not correct..." [Insert rational thought and point-by-point rebuttal here]. The response? "La, la, la (fingers in ears) I can't hear you!"

 

[Tugela]

Following the Supreme Court ruling in December all the provinces practically stopped prosecution on prostitution related charges until the laws are rewritten. The only exception is Alberta where the Justice Minister suggested to prosecute (persecute?) 'men who buy sex from prostitutes': http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/A...d+pursue+johns+prostitutes/9468321/story.html

How the hell is it possible? Paying for sex has never been a crime in Canada, and the criminal code is exactly the same in any Canadian province, so there is no way Alberta can come up with its own criminal code. Still Alberta Justice Minister has publicly announced that he will direct prosecutors to charge law abiding citizens with a non-existent 'crime'. And he can actually do it without being impeached, possibly arrested and prosecuted himself? Can anybody clarify it for me?

Alberta is a sovereign entity. It can make it's own laws, provided they do not conflict with Federal law. Since there is no Federal law on the matter, they are free to enact whatever they see fit.

 

[phreak]

Alberta is a sovereign entity. It can make it's own laws, provided they do not conflict with Federal law. Since there is no Federal law on the matter, they are free to enact whatever they see fit.

Absolutely incorrect. Provinces can make their own laws as long as they have nothing to do with the criminal code. Criminal code is under the Federal jurisdiction and is exactly the same across Canada. The level of enforcement may differ, but what is considered crime and what is not can't differ. Even Quebec, which uses any occasion to say 'fuck you' to the rest of Canada and which has civil legislation totally different than any other province still has exactly the same criminal code. Charges for buying sex simply won't stand in court in Alberta or elsewhere in Canada. This means that Alberta Justice Minister is trying to use law enforcement for illegal activities like persecuting law abiding citizens based on his own liking. I would be surprised if this were not be considered a criminal offence.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Absolutely incorrect. Provinces can make their own laws as long as they have nothing to do with the criminal code. Criminal code is under the Federal jurisdiction and is exactly the same across Canada. The level of enforcement may differ, but what is considered crime and what is not can't differ. Even Quebec, which uses any occasion to say 'fuck you' to the rest of Canada and which has civil legislation totally different than any other province still has exactly the same criminal code. Charges for buying sex simply won't stand in court in Alberta or elsewhere in Canada. This means that Alberta Justice Minister is trying to use law enforcement for illegal activities like persecuting law abiding citizens based on his own liking. I would be surprised if this were not be considered a criminal offence.

give it a rest - he's a friggin' politician fer chrissake!! he'll say all sorts of stupid things to make sure his constituents will vote him back in

crown counsel decides what will pass or fail in the courts, but that won't make the news - it's too boring

 

[phreak]

Sure it can. "Consent" can't be a factor when you are a victim of exploitation by men. No woman with options would ever, ever consent to such an arrangement. They are all victims, and need to be protected.

Sorry, but this is the thought process used. It uses the language of the radical feminists, yet meets the moral needs of the right wing. It is perfect, and it will happen. Of course, women need to be given options to get out of their tawdry lives, so the legislation will also include some framework (likely paltry) designed to help wayward women gain skills, etc. But the main problem is the evil men with no conscience who exploit women in these dire circumstances, and they will be punished. Of course, they are not "innocent." A long-time injustice will be addressed.

That is how it will be addressed to the public. Your daughters will no longer be exploited by drooling, perverted rings of traffickers. It will be a shining example to the world, just like Sweden and Iceland are. Everyone will join hands and sing "Kumbaya."

"Oh," you say, "here's a good bit of evidence that shows you are not correct..." [Insert rational thought and point-by-point rebuttal here]. The response? "La, la, la (fingers in ears) I can't hear you!"

Sweden proved itself to be extremely corrupt (Assange case is a classic example). And their 'nordic model' is as lawless as many other barbaric laws they have. Legally in Canada the claim that 'all prostitutes are exploited by all men (clients)' wouldn't fly. Exploitation needs to be proved on case by case basis. Which means the general law is highly unlikely. Also suppressing fundamental freedoms to prevent trafficking is way worse than trafficking itself - I doubt Canadians would ever go for it.

 

[rexxx]

Its not just Alberta several other provinces are in favor of it too there's a real push to go with this Nordic model and make buying sex illegal but selling sex decriminalized don't be surprised if Harper doesn't try and get it passed

 

[phreak]

give it a rest - he's a friggin' politician fer chrissake!! he'll say all sorts of stupid things to make sure his constituents will vote him back in

crown counsel decides what will pass or fail in the courts, but that won't make the news - it's too boring

Hi, Vancity Cowboy... You've got to be a real Canadian not to understand the gravity of what's happening in Alberta. This kind of statement from a high level civil servant would at least end his career in any civilized society and likely get him indicted.

 

[phreak]

Its not just Alberta several other provinces are in favor of it too there's a real push to go with this Nordic model and make buying sex illegal but selling sex decriminalized don't be surprised if Harper doesn't try and get it passed

I guess I'll claim a refugee status in New Zealand if this happens...

 

[Tugela]

Absolutely incorrect. Provinces can make their own laws as long as they have nothing to do with the criminal code. Criminal code is under the Federal jurisdiction and is exactly the same across Canada. The level of enforcement may differ, but what is considered crime and what is not can't differ. Even Quebec, which uses any occasion to say 'fuck you' to the rest of Canada and which has civil legislation totally different than any other province still has exactly the same criminal code. Charges for buying sex simply won't stand in court in Alberta or elsewhere in Canada. This means that Alberta Justice Minister is trying to use law enforcement for illegal activities like persecuting law abiding citizens based on his own liking. I would be surprised if this were not be considered a criminal offence.

That is kind of weird, because Alberta has a legislature, just like every other province, which passes acts. Those acts are absolutely enforceable and do not require federal law to be enforced.

 

[hornygandalf]

That is kind of weird, because Alberta has a legislature, just like every other province, which passes acts. Those acts are absolutely enforceable and do not require federal law to be enforced.

Yes, but it is a matter of jurisdiction, and there are some matters (such as the criminal code) which is under federal jurisdiction, and there are other things (such as education) that is under provincial jurisdiction.

As the purchasing of sex isn't illegal and the SC has said that certain provisions don't carry constitutional muster, I wonder what Alberta is using to go after the johns? Must be giving a field day for lawyers there.

 

[johnsmit]

And you dont think the courts will see right though the Obserbity of that statement.
"its legal to sell sex... but illegal to buy what they are offering

In most cases.. they will only be selling thier time .and companionship.
and what happens between two concenting adults is thier business.

The courts in canada will no longer stand for police. threatening and intimidating. tactics. to force people to testify
.. We have a charter of rightz and freedom... it seem sweden does not.

Side note.. From my experiance with religious people... they all have dirt . that they havd hiden..
The more self righteous the more there is that they are trying to hide..

Harper . is a politition. ask your self what he did to get to the top... Did he fo dvery thing that was right and good.. or did he make the same mistakes every one makes.... that think they are doing gods work.
I saw it in a small Circle... but we all know about it in the bigger religious circles.
Some one just needs to find where he buried the the rotting corpse.. figuratively speaking

oh and for the Solicitor General of Alberta.. he is really feeling guilty about something. to alllw himself to be pressured into making such a statement.

 

[VanessaofBC]

I guess I'll claim a refugee status in New Zealand if this happens...

Two tickets to New Zealand !!!!!!!!!

 

[phreak]

Two tickets to New Zealand !!!!!!!!!

Wow... I would love to have such a companion

 

[phreak]

If selling/buying sex is not against the law, it means it is 100 % legal. Whatever is not explicitly prohibited by law, is allowed - that's a centuries old principle of justice. Though provinces may regulate buying/selling of sex as a business (licenses, fees, taxes), they can't criminally prosecute for something that is not a criminal offence under the Federal criminal code. The next logical step would be to admit that prostitution should not just be tolerated, but that it is something very positive and beneficial for the society in general. Unlike selling drugs selling sex is not based on some kind of unhealthy addiction, but exactly the opposite - the need for healthy lifestyle. And skilful prostitutes deserve as much respect as professionals in any other occupation.

 

[hornygandalf]

Yes there is a separation of powers established in the BNA act and carried forward in the constitution. Criminal matters are the jurisdiction of the feds. Of course, commerce is the jurisdiction of the provinces & much as it is illegal to sell liquor in corner stores in some provinces and it is legal in others, the province probably can, through regulation, prohibit the commerce in sex.

The key point is that federal law trumps provincial law when provincial law interfers in things handled under federal powers. But the federal law does not say that selling sex is legal, it is silent on the issue, it is just that selling sex is not against any federal law. The provinces could step in and regulate the commerce in sex under provincial powers and not interfere in any federal law. The courts might or might not agree with the province, but that takes time, just like fighting a nordic model law would.

Thank you for providing more precise details. I'm a foreigner, so have a much more general understanding.