For those of you who think the NDP should govern federally.

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't be fooled by all the smoke and mirrors of a more middle ground NDP.
Once in power they will revert back to the old tax and spend philosophies they all cut their teeth on.
Just look at how they are behaving in MB. despite all their promises to be more fiscally responsible.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/04/16/arrogant-tired-ndp-need-to-go

Will the last person to leavve the province turn out the lights. Oh wait no need to do that as they've pretty well f'd up and bankrupted the once very profitable Manitoba Hydro as well.

 

[Torrential]

This is a bit of an "other crap exists" argument.

I'm sure whatever political party you're voting for, that has had a term at the provincal or federal level, has had as many if not more examples of poor financial handling considered the NDP has a very small track record in comparison to the Liberals and Conservatives.

I'm not vouching for any political party but if your claim is that the Liberals or the Conversatives have not majorly mishandled the federal budget from massive increases in deficeit, privacy concerns, businesses leaving the country, etc. then the argument the NDP would do worse because your example is Mannitoba is not a very strong argument. Even comparing a provincial budget to the federal one is exponentially more complex and would by no political party be strategized in the same way. Financial analyst will rarely compare these two for obvious reasons. Even the way the budgets are balanced and due process at a provincial and federal are so different that applying if 'x' then 'y' logic would be ludicrous. You would, for starters, need to look at the overall federal policies proposed by the NDP to start estimating any ressemblance of how they, or any political party, would proceed with a federal budget. Keep in mind that if you review the Conversative and Liberal provincial budgetary plans for BC, they are night and day against the federal policies currently enacted.

Furthermore, if your source and method of educating yourself on the matter as a resident of BC is an Editorial Opinion from the Winnipeg Sun that nearly ends with, "It’s all signs of an arrogant, tired government that has little sense of how to manage a province", essentially character assassination much like Fox News instead of actual political debate then there is little point of discussion. As soon as those methods are implemented there are serious conflict of interest and neutral point of view arguments to discredit your opinion regardless of how the 'opposition' performed or policy based arrgumentd introduced.

To put it in perspective, I've never voted NDP, but I am pro-political process which at any respectable level is not the Winnipeg Sun editorial section, character assassination, or making far fetched budgetary comparisons that most tend to avoid. If you recall a recent widespread attempt in California to suggest the Republicans were going to run the US the same way...

 

[canuck33660]

We have all the information we need on the NDP here in BC. They have governed us twice and fucked the Province up royally twice. We are going to let Adrian and his assclown parade of morons do it again, because the people of this Province are idiots and the Liberals have fucked it up so badly and the electorate is not voting for the NDP as much as they are voting against the Libs. The same thing happened 10 years ago when the NDP got wiped out. BC'ers are a bipolar bunch of fucking idiots, who appear not to learn from mistakes and who also appear not to be able to listen to reasoned arguments.

All the NDP have to do (and all they really are doing in the campaign thus far) is sit back and don't make a lot of waves and hope nothing major happens between now and election day and they'll win a comfortable majority.

Absolutely agree.

This election has been handed to the NDP on a silver platter by the Liberals.

You can see the smugness of Dix everytime he talks. He knows he is going to be the next premier as long as he keeps his fuck'n left wing trap shut.

We are in for 5 years of pain.

And the fuck'n moronic BC voters have no clue.

I can't figure out why left wing always = moron.

 

[Torrential]

If we're going to change the subject entirely and talk about the NDP political platform in BC and not discuss the provincial budget in relation to the federal budget, but rather their overall BC track record... then comparison is much unlike the Democrats who do well during tough times, i.e. recession, political scandal, pre-war economics.

I have very little confidence in both the NDP's position on government spending, taxes, and even their social programs which is the foundation of their party. No party has a strong emphasis on R&D and education, yet lacks the plan to attract big business in Canadian ventures, or keep/support growing commercial interest.

 

[canuck33660]

Here is why socialism will ALWAYS fail.

This is very similiar to a story my dad told me when I was in university and after the first year I guess he fear that I was coming across with a socialistic slant:

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
It could not be any simpler than that.

There are five morals to this story:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation

 

[vancity_cowboy]

sheesh... you'd think you guys LIKE ms bijou's quotes, because i guarantee you we're gong to see a few now!!

 

[wilde]

NDP = New (on the) Dole Party.

 

[storm rider]

The last time around, the NDP had the Province while the rest of the world economy was booming and they STILL fucked it up. Federally, they are about to slip back into obscurity. Jack Layton's gone, Mulcair is a moron with no profile outside Quebec and Trudeau's emergence will mean the Liberals are back. The NDP is back to 3rd party status, at best, they should have merged with the Libs while there were down and out. now, they are done for federally. Just watch.

Fuckin A dude,that is exactly what is going to happen.The Justin Trudeau led libs are going to reauchambeaux the NDP in the next Federal election.They will split the leftist vote and give Harper another majority but at the same time Trudeau will get to boot that assclown Mulcair out of Stornaway and bitch slap the NDP when his party takes the official opposition status.It is a good thing too as the NDP have this smug attitude that they should be governing this country since they stole the BLOC's thunder and got a bunch of seats in Quebec in the last election and the only reason the NDP won those seats was because in nearly every riding they won every voter was convinced that THEY were voting for Layton.....pretty effective I will say.

With regards to BC provincial politics....well that is what you get be it the NDP or the Liberals....both parties have their scandals as well as leaders of the respective parties.From "Bingo gate" or "Hydro gate" or Glen Clark getting busted by accepting bribes in the form of free work on his home to Gordan Campbell skipping off scot free from a DUI charge in a tropical paradise and even Vanderzalm with his fiasco.

The reality for BC politics is that voters get fucked over no matter what.I remember talking to my brother who lives in Vancouver and hearing him whine about the Liberals and what they have done in their time in power.My response to him was "well what the fuck do you expect? the party is Liberal in name only".

All I can say is get prepared to be fucked over if the NDP win the provincial election.Buy some lube and
get used to the feeling of being brutally ass-fucked through tax hikes/fee hikes and other hikes as the NDP just plain love to TAX and SPEND.Also get ready to recieve the news in the media of the many coming revelations of both graft and kickbacks that your soon to be elected NDP MLA's will be found guilty of in time.


Cripes I am glad I live in Alberta.And in with regards to how Alberta is being managed by Stellmach and now Redford...FFS I would rather have good ol Ralph Klein in charge of things the last 8 years as he would have done a far better job even though he was suffering from dimentia.

SR

 

[bcneil]

Its not that BC voters are stupid or moronic. We have no valid options.
Its a cycle of the current government fucking up so bad, that the next election they get voted out, as opposed the other party being voted in.
The NDP will win this time, fuck it up. Then the Liberals will get their turn next time.
I predict the lowest percent voter turnout in the history of the province.

 

[canuck33660]

Don't argue with the core meaning of what you say, just a question (for you and the group as a whole):

Why do folks seem to think that a tax and spend government is a bad thing? Since the sole output of government is to deliver programs by spending you have only two choices:
A tax and spend government, or
A borrow and spend government.
Of the two, a tax and spend government is less damaging because the costs of their programs are front and center on your pay checks & the next election will say whether folks think their programs should continue. A borrow & spend government can run unsustainable programs for decades until the bills all come due. So give me the tax & spenders. Every time.

Well the tendency for the NDP is to spend our tax dollars increasing the wages and benefits of all unionized public employees and giving additional benefits to all the lazy ass on welfare.

To me I would rather have a government that will neither spend nor tax but will stay within their fiscal boundaries.

As much as I may not like the Federal Liberals. They always had very good finance ministers.

If you want to talk about taxation. One thing I have never understood is why progressive taxation whereby the more you earn the more you pay proportionately is fair. Does this mean the higher income earners use more of the public funds as their income increases. I don't think so. In fact I will suggest that the higher income earners use less of the public funds on a proportionate basis. Never understood the fairness of paying 43.7% on income above $132,000 is fair. Oh and when the NDP comes into power this will become 48%.

I know I am getting off topic but I just got my tax bill and I am pissed.

 

[Tugela]

Don't be fooled by all the smoke and mirrors of a more middle ground NDP.
Once in power they will revert back to the old tax and spend philosophies they all cut their teeth on.
Just look at how they are behaving in MB. despite all their promises to be more fiscally responsible.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/04/16/arrogant-tired-ndp-need-to-go

Will the last person to leavve the province turn out the lights. Oh wait no need to do that as they've pretty well f'd up and bankrupted the once very profitable Manitoba Hydro as well.

The provincial parties and the federal parties are all independent of each other. The only thing they share is a name, you can't predict what policies will be followed based on what is happening federally or in another province.

Incidentally, if they came to power with a plan to return to economic prosperity, it implies that the other party had left the province in the toilet in the first place and had no plan either.

Kind of hard to correct the damage the previous government had done to the economy in the middle of a recession. The best they could hope for is to mitigate the damage.

Oh, one more thing, it is pretty clear that newspaper is partisan and opposes the present government, so they are not exactly an unbiased opinion.

 

[dojin]

First I must say that the winnipeg sun is not a great source but to each their own.
As for the early NDP days, I found some good and bad from fiscal reports that in my opinion did not show the "destruction" of BC that a lot of people complain about but then I am from Alberta with a somewhat recent transplant to BC so I did not live the experience.

For Alberta, Ralph Klein was great. The ones after spent the province into a massive debt (from a surplus). Politics in AB is a waste of time as people there don't care as they will vote Conservative all the time (whether its a person/dog/cat running or not) so there is no accountability.

As for who I would like to vote for federally and see win? That would be Green as during the debates in the last two elections, they had the most fiscal sense as the same time staying out of people's lives. Justin Trudeau would of been interesting till he agreed on the FIPA China act which I consider as selling out our nation for a short term profit. As for the upcoming provincial election, NDP seem to be the most open of the lot when it comes down to reasonable fiscal forecasting (my opinion).

About the whole tax and spend evil notion, all governments do it one way or another, either through tariffs, user pay fees, income tax, etc. It is the open transparency and paper trail on where the money goes that makes the big difference.

Finally, I am all for attracting small business and start ups vs Big business. I am tired of the too big to fail (socializing losses of businesses) concept and with the recent RBC nonsense, we need to reign in big businesses and make them accountable in doing business in this country. The only thing I could do and did do was move my investments and all my services to a local credit union.

 

[westcoast555]

Here is why socialism will ALWAYS fail.

This is very similiar to a story my dad told me when I was in university and after the first year I guess he fear that I was coming across with a socialistic slant:

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
It could not be any simpler than that.

There are five morals to this story:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation

This is one of the more succinct explanations I've seen of the perils of the welfare state and the redistributionist approach. Funny that I'd have to come to a pooning site to see it. Those 5 points especially. Very true.

 

[BallzDeep]

There are five morals to this story:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation[/I]

pretty much sums up why the first nations thing in Canada will never work either.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't argue with the core meaning of what you say, just a question (for you and the group as a whole):

Why do folks seem to think that a tax and spend government is a bad thing? Since the sole output of government is to deliver programs by spending you have only two choices:
A tax and spend government, or
A borrow and spend government.

Of the two, a tax and spend government is less damaging because the costs of their programs are front and center on your pay checks & the next election will say whether folks think their programs should continue. A borrow & spend government can run unsustainable programs for decades until the bills all come due. So give me the tax & spenders. Every time.

Here's a novel idea, a don't spend government as in, live within ones means like the rest of us have to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Incidentally, if they came to power with a plan to return to economic prosperity, it implies that the other party had left the province in the toilet in the first place and had no plan either.

Kind of hard to correct the damage the previous government had done to the economy in the middle of a recession. The best they could hope for is to mitigate the damage.

When the NDP was elected back into power in Manitoba the province was in excellent economic health. The PC's had finally balanced the provincial budget and the economy was booming. What put the NDP back in power was the union vote (here in MB 50% of the population are employed by some level of government or crown corporation and thus a union member) and the fear mongering about cuts to health care (which the PC's were forced into at the time as were provincial governments of all politcal stripes, by the federal Liberals slashing transfer payments to balance the federal budget).
Since then the provincial NDP government has spent and borrowed us into the crapper while breaking the law (the PC's had made passed balanced budget legislation), raping Manitoba Hydro of heir profits to support their spending and eventually changing the law so they could continue to run deficits.

 

[BallzDeep]

Here's a novel idea, a don't spend government as in, live within ones means like the rest of us have to.

exactly. ass, cash, or grass, nobody rides for free. if you cant afford it, dont buy it. simple. except that its not, in order to grow and expand, like most major companies they raise capital.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A 'don't spend' government is one that has no programs and a budget of zero dollars. Think about the words you are writing before hitting enter.

A government that spends no more than it takes in in revenue is living within its means even if the tax rate is running at 99% What you have written, living within its means, is exactly what I said about a borrow and spend government.

So Tax and Spend is better than Borrow and Spend. Limit who you vote for to the tax and spenders & select from them the ones that deliver only the level of taxation you can live with for the programs you can support.

I'm glad we all agree.

I apologize for what was evidently a confusing post. It was written early this morning as I was up at 4 am for a conference call to a client in Eastern Europe. As a self employed small business owner I have to do what ever to keep my business operating and my employees employed. Unlike the teaming hoards of civil servants in this province who are likely snug in their beds resting up for their grueling day where between coffee breaks, lunch, surfing the web, talking to their friends on the phone, texting, chatting with co-workers, etc, they might actually perform a couple hours of real work.

I NEVER meant to imply that a government should not collect some taxes and do some spending. It only makes sense that governments invest in things like roads, water supply, sewage and other infrastructure as well as policing, fire protection, parks, healthcare, education and looking after those that cannot look after themselves.
That said government also has a responsibility to live within their means and make cuts when necessary to non-core, non-essential programs when they run out of money. Not to go to their citizens like a bunch of robber barons taking more and leaving the citizens to fend for themselves. Especially in a case like this where increasing the PST will hurt the poor much more than any other segment of society.

Oh and BTW incase anyone feels the need to comment that I am on PERB during working hours, your right. But I've also been up since 3:30 a.m., currently sitting waiting for a flight and won't be home until midnight tonight and I'm the boss. So I'm taking a break.

Cheers

 

[Master69]

Wow. ol' JB sure stirred up a hornet's nest.

Dave Barrett, Harcourt-Clark-Miller-Dosanjh, BC is doomed to a perpetual eternal cycle of electing socialists when times are good, to have the provincial economy run into the ground by them, and re-elect a different party to fix things (Bennett, Campbell), then the public perceives times are good again and there is public money to be spent, throws the prudent out and re-elects the free-spending socialists..........and it starts ALL over again.

Nothing anyone can do about it, it's out-of-your-control, plan accordingly.

 

[mimi]

Thank you, Peace Guy, for your erudite posts. "Tax and spend" is the best way to stimulate the economy. Jobs with decent wages is another.

I pay taxes that are distributed to support the First World developed country I live in. I don't expect the small percentage of disabled (mentally/physically) to live off the charity of religions who dangle food and clothing as 'carrots' in return for conversion and obedience to their beliefs.

I have never bitched about paying income tax even though 1/3 of my paycheques was deducted. I remember saying, in the 80s, that I would rather pay taxes to support government programs than live in a country where you couldn't walk ten feet without tripping over a poor person begging for their livelihood, or have children deliberately maimed for that same purpose (bringing in the family income).

Well, it seems that poverty has caught up with us. I just came back to my small town to find that tripping over the poor is a daily exercise, and many of my favourite shops (the small 'mom and pop' varieties) are gone and empty windows with 'for lease' are in their place, for lack of people with enough disposable income to patronize them. Our new emergency ward at the hospital had to be paid for by a private partner and donations from the public.

Do any of the governments vying for power really understand the challenges this country is facing? It seems that they try to operate as if the recession never happened with the expecatation that things will get better. Once they get into power it is 'business as usual', each one blaming the other for problems that are caused by outside influences. Unlucky for you and your party if a recession happens, or a large scale natural disaster, just when you take power.

The percentage of people on welfare is probably not far off from the percentage of retired politicians living off generous pensions. At least the welfare recipients spend their money in their own towns. They don't hoard it in the bank lol...they cannot fly off to exotic places and binge.

The NDP stand for nothing today. The Liberals aren't very liberal and the Conservatives have an archaic view of social reform that reminds me of the Industrial Revolution period.

Do politicians know anything about living within ones 'means'? And just for the record, if we all lived strictly within our means, what would happen to the countless numbers of stores and businesses I see driving through Vancouver? The type of system we have relies on people spending lots of money all the time.

Socialism and capitalism are both crucial elements in our system. It is a lack of balance between the two that causes problems.

Now, try to find a political party that knows how to balance their 'income and outgo'. In fact, I would like to know, down to the last detail, where it all goes....every government, from federal down to municipal. I am sure there is a lot of it leaking into the wrong places....that is the inherent problem we have with our governments....no matter what political party takes power.