Arab Spring nations don't yet grasp freedom of dissent (CNN)

[Unpossible]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/23/world/meast/pakistan-film-bounty/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Did you even read the article?

Sen. Zahid Khan, a spokesman for Bilour's political party, said the minister's action is not representative of the Awami National Party.
"We believe in nonviolence. How could we make such announcements?" Khan said. "Our party has been fighting against militancy and extremism for years. How could we invite Taliban and al Qaeda to kill someone? Taliban and al Qaeda are our enemies who have killed our loved ones."
Police and protestors clash in Pakistan Muslims mad at more than the movie? Anti-Islamic filmmaker exposed
"We have lots of concerns over the statement of our colleague," he added

Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf condemns the bounty issued by Bilour, his spokesman said Sunday

 

[westcoast555]

Actually one should be able to state their arguments on their own without linking to a lot of articles. In matters of opinion we may wish to back it up with references to facts that support out opinions... but just linking to more editorials doesn't equate to conviction.

The most important element is to address directly the questions/propositions of the person you're arguing with. Just changing the subject, begging the question etc. are typical fallacious argument techniques. Providing reams of links to articles that assume the consequent (i.e. 'begging the question' and affirming as true that which is not established by argument) are not particularly impressive to me. Just restating is a variant of the 'spurious appeals to authority' fallacy. In other words... 'crap that nobody wants to read'

One should succinctly state their own arguments and directly address those of others without redirection.

 

[westcoast555]

Ms B

May I respectfully point out that the West has made attempts to leave the barbarism of the ages behind them while the Muslims still revel in it?

1) In Islamic states there is NO separation of church and state. True of False?
2) Blasphemy laws are enforced vigorously. True of False?
3) Rape is endemic in Islamic countries and in most of them the woman is blamed regardless of the circumstances. True of False?
4) In Islamic countries women are systemically deprived of educational opportunities or personal autonomy. True of False?
5) Marriages are arranged in most Islamic countries with no choice on the part of the woman. True of False?
6) The testimony of a man is given absolute weight over that of a woman in Islam. True of False?
7) The Koran is considered absolute authority and inviolate even over scientific inquiry in many Islamic countries. True of False?
8) Islam was spread by conquest and colonialism for centuries. True of False?

 

[zenoofelea]

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the point of views presented here, one has to admire the conviction demonstrated by MB on this topic.
One would have to feel quite passionately about a subject to study and write in that detail and at that length.
Do dismiss it as 'crap that no one wants to read' is quite disrespectful of someone's opinions. No one forces you to engage in these discussions or read a contrarian point of view.

MB, thank you also for sharing your family background. I had wondered what your connection was to the subject to cause you to speak with such passion on the subject. Now we know.

Bullshit. Her posts are patronizing and reek of supercilious condescension. They are also rife with ad hominem attacks on other members. She is treated the way she treats other people.

 

[jesuschrist]

Ms B

May I respectfully point out that the West has made attempts to leave the barbarism of the ages behind them while the Muslims still revel in it?

1) In Islamic states there is NO separation of church and state. True of False?
2) Blasphemy laws are enforced vigorously. True of False?
3) Rape is endemic in Islamic countries and in most of them the woman is blamed regardless of the circumstances. True of False?
4) In Islamic countries women are systemically deprived of educational opportunities or personal autonomy. True of False?
5) Marriages are arranged in most Islamic countries with no choice on the part of the woman. True of False?
6) The testimony of a man is given absolute weight over that of a woman in Islam. True of False?
7) The Koran is considered absolute authority and inviolate even over scientific inquiry in many Islamic countries. True of False?
8) Islam was spread by conquest and colonialism for centuries. True of False?

I'll answer.
1. No separation between church and state - and if there is none, there is no connection between that and barbarism anyways. Theocracies are not necessarily barbaric. The Ottoman Empire was a theocracy, it was not barbaric while the Catholic Empire of Spain was truly barbaric at that time.
2. Blasphemy laws are enforced, often by capital punishment. How is it any more barbaric than capital punishment for a murderer?
3. Rape is as common place in North America, with its culture of hyper-sexualization, as you might think it is in Islamic countries but you can't be sure about how "endemic" it is there. But you can be assured with hard data just how common rape is here, it is astounding. That the woman is automatically blamed for rape in those countries is a myth.
4. Women are systematically deprived of educational opportunities and personal autonomy, yes. That is the way it was in the industrial revolution in England. Every society has a ways to go towards women's equality.
5. False, absolutely a total lie.
6. False, absolutely a total lie.
7. False. The Koran urges scientific inquiry. Read it yourself, I have.
8. False for the most part. Islam was spread by conquest over Arabic lands, to oust the European invaders who are Caucasian, and to unite the Semitic peoples there. Islam spread peacefully throughout the rest of the world. It was Christianity that was spread by conquest, entire continents I might add.

What you see as the terrible extremes in violence and oppression in Islamic states today is the direct result of Western subjugation. Karen Armstrong calls this "an embattled religiosity" - that is a way of life of people who have for centuries been under the slave-like conditions and conquest of Europe, and with impending modernity everywhere seen as a more ominous threat to their own sovereignty. They risk losing their culture and identity as a people, and the last victory as Arabs that they have ever known was under the creation of Islam - thus their societies revert back to what had given them strength as a people. It is a regressive step backward in a way, but nevertheless the impetus is not Islam itself, it's the continued prejudice, insults, and oppression by the West.

 

[Ray]

1) In Islamic states there is NO separation of church and state. True of False?

Some countries do have separation of church and state, some do not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism

2) Blasphemy laws are enforced vigorously. True of False?

Blasphemy laws exist in some countries, (not just Muslim ones), not all. Some of these countries enforce them vigorously, others, not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism

3) Rape is endemic in Islamic countries and in most of them the woman is blamed regardless of the circumstances. True of False?

Have no idea on the stats on rape in the Muslim world. Don't imagine it's any better or worse than here.

4) In Islamic countries women are systemically deprived of educational opportunities or personal autonomy. True of False?

Definitely false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_education

5) Marriages are arranged in most Islamic countries with no choice on the part of the woman. True of False?

Definitely false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_marital_practices

6) The testimony of a man is given absolute weight over that of a woman in Islam. True of False?

False.

It is not an absolute, only in financial transactions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_women's_testimony_in_Islam

7) The Koran is considered absolute authority and inviolate even over scientific inquiry in many Islamic countries. True of False?

False. Islam encourages scientific inquiry. In fact, I believe the concept of Empirical Evidence in science is a product of Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_science

8) Islam was spread by conquest and colonialism for centuries. True of False?

This is false. According to Bernard Lewis, this is one of the most enduring myths about Islam. The country with the largest Muslim population is Indonesia. No Muslim army ever invaded Indonesia. Muslims did invade and occupy Spain. But the Spanish population is still Catholic. The Ottomans occupied Eastern Europe for centuries. But the people there are still Orthodox Christian. The majority of India is still Hindu. A study of Islamic conquest shows they went to great lengths to not have the population convert. Higher taxes from non-Muslim subjects. Conquest was about material wealth, not religion. Having said that, there were some really brutal rulers from time to time, so we can't be naive and pretend they were all benevolent rulers.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Maybe it's time for an intervention. Miss Bijou was up all night (1 - 4am) posting this crap that no one wants to read.

You might look less stupid if you did read before you posted. Again, if you're not interested in reading my response to comments and questions directed at me and obviously you're not interested in commentating yourself, then why are you reading it and why ould I give a shit that you're not interested? Being up until 4am, on a Saturday is nowhere near 'staying up all night' either. Don't worry about me, I may have my my faults but being an ignorant bigot thankfully isn't one of them. I'll pick whatever it is your complaining about (writing outside of regular business hours/too late/too much/too many links/too many quotes/too much common sense or whatever new complaint or alleged minor character flaw t someone comes up with this week?) over bigotry any day. Im not especially interested in the anger that comes with being so intolerant, judgmental and hateful either. Just watching all of you practically foaming at the mouth, makes me tired.

But thanks for doing your part to with your own negative contribution. Still no actual argument though.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

+1, for someone who bitches that people here are wasting her time she spends an amazing amount of time digging up and posting utter crap that probably less than 10% actually read.

Whooo hooo I was wondering when yous show up with nothing to add and your usual complaining! What took you so long? Well now I know this thread was worth it. Thanks for taking the time to post - a thread can't be complete without your wisdom. Totally appreciate it, I owe you a big one!!!

Bullshit. Her posts arepatronizing and reek of supercilious condescension. They are also rife with ad hominem attacks on other members. She is treated the way she treats other people.

Well, hello to you too, 'New' member. Lol I have to say I really like the word 'superlicious
'! I've never heard it before and I'm not totally sure what it means yet but I'm going to keep that one and use it for sure!

Oh, don't get so worked up, its just a heated discussion on the internet. I do have to clarify that IMO you're exaggerating just a little bit and possibly being a little selective in your interpretation but that's ok, I won't argue with you. The last thing is want to do is hurt your feelings , Mr 'New' Member but I admit I'm heavy on sarcasm and very Few people get it most of the time so they sweat the small stuff and get very offended (though some people do get it and get a kick out of the ensuing outrage). It's sort of comes naturally though...I can't help it. So don't get all offended, its really not serious, trust me. But ill try my best to be gentle with you now that I've been made aware of your delicate nature and easily hurt feelings. See, its good to let it all out - I bet you must feel so much better now. I know I do! Big hugz.

 

[kenchorney]

Whooo hooo I was wondering when yous show up with nothing to add and your usual complaining! What took you so long? Well now I know this thread was worth it. Thanks for taking the time to post - a thread can't be complete without your wisdom. Totally appreciate it, I owe you a big one!!!

LOL Sorry if I don't stay up ALL night posting drivel just to make you happy. LOL You should go outside on occasion, you might not be so cranky all the time. LOL

 

[myselftheother]

1) In Islamic states there is NO separation of church and state. True of False?

Some countries do have separation of church and state, some do not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism

2) Blasphemy laws are enforced vigorously. True of False?

Blasphemy laws exist in some countries, (not just Muslim ones), not all. Some of these countries enforce them vigorously, others, not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism

3) Rape is endemic in Islamic countries and in most of them the woman is blamed regardless of the circumstances. True of False?

Have no idea on the stats on rape in the Muslim world. Don't imagine it's any better or worse than here.

4) In Islamic countries women are systemically deprived of educational opportunities or personal autonomy. True of False?

Definitely false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_education

5) Marriages are arranged in most Islamic countries with no choice on the part of the woman. True of False?

Definitely false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_marital_practices

6) The testimony of a man is given absolute weight over that of a woman in Islam. True of False?

False.

It is not an absolute, only in financial transactions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_women's_testimony_in_Islam

7) The Koran is considered absolute authority and inviolate even over scientific inquiry in many Islamic countries. True of False?

False. Islam encourages scientific inquiry. In fact, I believe the concept of Empirical Evidence in science is a product of Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_science

8) Islam was spread by conquest and colonialism for centuries. True of False?

This is false. According to Bernard Lewis, this is one of the most enduring myths about Islam. The country with the largest Muslim population is Indonesia. No Muslim army ever invaded Indonesia. Muslims did invade and occupy Spain. But the Spanish population is still Catholic. The Ottomans occupied Eastern Europe for centuries. But the people there are still Orthodox Christian. The majority of India is still Hindu. A study of Islamic conquest shows they went to great lengths to not have the population convert. Higher taxes from non-Muslim subjects. Conquest was about material wealth, not religion. Having said that, there were some really brutal rulers from time to time, so we can't be naive and pretend they were all benevolent rulers.

YOu actually believe what you read on Wikipedia? As for conquest being about material wealth, there is also conquest for religious domination...hence the push into Spain, Turkey, Greece, Africa, Phillipines...mass immigration into Holland, England, France etc. Also Islam doesn't encourage scientific study that contradicts the Koran...

Sorry Bijou if I touched a nerve with Islam as your family being Moslem...which makes your opinions and such emotionally biased, based on emotion rather than reason.....such as it is. The current state of Islam, the daily riots, killings and murders that one Islamic group inflicts on others, constant blaring of Jews vs Moors, Saracens, Sunni's vs Shiites...or vs Sikhs, Hindus, Buddists, Christians....do you see the pattern?

Let me point it out to you in my own words...it's not about the actual people, it's all about RELIGION...the pursuit of doing shitty things to people in the name of God, that since you offended me I must kill you, God demands it. What a complete load of bullshit....and this is what I don't what I don't want in my secular country. I don't give a shit if it's Christians burning down moques, Moslems tossing acid on little girls going to school, Hindu's persecuting Sikhs, Sikhs bombing planes....or again Moslems blowing up Moslems because they're mad at the US, or Isreal, or some other flavour of the week. It's all about religion and until we the human race actually get up and stop this real evil that's poisoning the world we will never have peace. It's an idealology that obviously not working, leads to nothing but suppression of the masses, exploitation of lesser 'peoples', death, destruction and insanity. Get it? My personal rant is all religious maniacs whether american, iranian...I don;t give a fuck who it is...ought to be locked up and made to watch Mr Roger's until they want to be my neighbor.

 

[myselftheother]

You might look less stupid if you did read before you posted. Again, if you're not interested in reading my response to comments and questions directed at me and obviously you're not interested in commentating yourself, then why are you reading it and why ould I give a shit that you're not interested? Being up until 4am, on a Saturday is nowhere near 'staying up all night' either. Don't worry about me, I may have my my faults but being an ignorant bigot thankfully isn't one of them. I'll pick whatever it is your complaining about (writing outside of regular business hours/too late/too much/too many links/too many quotes/too much common sense or whatever new complaint or alleged minor character flaw t someone comes up with this week?) over bigotry any day. Im not especially interested in the anger that comes with being so intolerant, judgmental and hateful either. Just watching all of you practically foaming at the mouth, makes me tired.

But thanks for doing your part to with your own negative contribution. Still no actual argument though.

And....for me, luv...it isn't bigotry if you hate those who are perpetrating evil on others...and then calling those who you are murdering in the name of god, the mighty dollar, oil, land....fuck them. If it is bigotry, which really is the wrong word...then I am for hating those who hate me without knowing me.

 

[blazejowski]

This thread needs and intermission, so I give you a stick man dancing a jig....

 

[Miss*Bijou]

LOL Sorry if I don't stay up ALL night posting drivel just to make you happy. LOL You should go outside on occasion, you might not be so cranky all the time. LOL

Hi, kettle. I'm pot.( Or am I kettle and you pot? I guess that doesn't matter much.)

Ps: considering I'm forced to type on my phone since my pc died on me, its possible I just might be outside right now

 

[Miss*Bijou]

YOu actually believe what you read on Wikipedia? As for conquest being about material wealth, there is also conquest for religious domination...hence the push into Spain, Turkey, Greece, Africa, Phillipines...mass immigration into Holland, England, France etc. Also Islam doesn't encourage scientific study that contradicts the Koran...

Sorry Bijou if I touched a nerve with Islam as your family being Moslem...which makes your opinions and such emotionally biased, based on emotion rather than reason.....such as it is. The current state of Islam, the daily riots, killings and murders that one Islamic group inflicts on others, constant blaring of Jews vs Moors, Saracens, Sunni's vs Shiites...or vs Sikhs, Hindus, Buddists, Christians....do you see the pattern?

Let me point it out to you in my own words...it's not about the actual people, it's all about RELIGION...the pursuit of doing shitty things to people in the name of God, that since you offended me I must kill you, God demands it. What a complete load of bullshit....and this is what I don't what I don't want in my secular country. I don't give a shit if it's Christians burning down moques, Moslems tossing acid on little girls going to school, Hindu's persecuting Sikhs, Sikhs bombing planes....or again Moslems blowing up Moslems because they're mad at the US, or Isreal, or some other flavour of the week. It's all about religion and until we the human race actually get up and stop this real evil that's poisoning the world we will never heace. It's an idealology that obviously not working, leads to nothing but suppression of the masses, exploitation of lesser 'peoples', death, destruction and insanity. Get it? My personal rant is all religious maniacs whether american, iranian...I don;t give a fuck who it is...ought to be locked up and made to watch Mr Roger's until they iwant be my neighbor.

I'm sorry but the fact that I have personal knowledge and experience doesnt mean it makes my "opinions and such emotionally biased, based on emotion rather than reason" just because you say it does. Show me some evidence to support that, please. Otherwise ill call it for what it is, which is a convenient way to dismiss anything I might say, avoid having to provide anything to back up your case since we should see you as an objective, unbiased and supposedly unemotional party.

Honestly, aside from the paragraph where I shared a personal connection to the topic, I think you'd have a hard time demonstrating that my arguments are based on emotion - or that yours are not, actually. Your "arguments" essentially consist of your own (disproved) assumptions and your repeating of the same premise (that this applies uniquely and only to Islam) which we've already given more than one example that demonstrates none of these things are unique to Islam or apply only to Islam. You're doing no more than accept and repeat the fear mongering propaganda, which I'm sorry to tell you, is the very emotional response propaganda is used for.

But then, confusingly, even though we've all been clearly debating Islam for 8 pages, you declare that no, its all religions (whether or not you mean religion as a whole or just fundamentalism within all religions is unclear to me though). But while still claiming what seems to refer to Islam as "an idealology that obviously not working, leads to nothing but suppression of the masses, exploitation of lesser 'peoples', death, destruction and insanity"? (Or is that all religions?)

So which is it? Islam as whole, specifically? Religion as a whole? Or fundamentalism within all religions? Why are you changing your position now or changing the scope of what were actually discussing?

If you were referring to t religion in general and not only Islam specially, here's a quote from the Dalai Lama about this:

"All the world's major religions, with their emphasis on love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether."

And....for me, luv...it isn't bigotry if you hate those who are perpetrating evil on others...and then calling those who you are murdering in the name of god, the mighty dollar, oil, land....fuck them. If it is bigotry, which really is the wrong word...then I am for hating those who hate me without knowing me.

Gosh you're really confusing! Im assuming you're ranting about Muslims? Because you could replace 'Muslims' with 'the US, Israel, Canada, Britain etc (aka 'the West') and it would actually fit more accurately than the way you've got.it now. ' The 'hating without knowing' is pretty popular in this part of the world these days,.don't you think? You don't even have to go further than this board... And the killing for oil and money, well, is it.really necessary to point out that 'tthe West' leads in the killing department BY FAR, and is the one after others oil - not the other way around? They're the ones bombing and occupying foreign countries - not the other way around. So really, why would you even ignore that and d put all the blame on one religion? (While all religions are used to justify horrible things too)

Sorry I find you really confusing to follow and I'm not even sure I understood you correctly!



Btw - there's nothing wrong with linking to Wikipedia. You people have to make up your mind: either you deal with links to sources where actual reading of often long texts is required or you deal with Wikipedia and get the condensed version. But people usually need to give sources to back up what they say and can't expect others to take their word for it. So its either one or the other, gotta pick one!

 

[Miss*Bijou]

You know, when this story first broke out, it really reminded me of how the government handeled Bin Laden's death. You get one story that paints the US in a positive light, only to have it retracted and quietly change the story as the weeks pass.

As soon as I heard about this youtube scandal, I could smell the bullshit coming from a mile away. Anyone with a half a brain could smell the bullshit. Of course, people who are too fucking stupid to know the difference between a Wahabi and a Shi'a will continue to blindly hate Islam no matter what, which is the problem. But I digress. It was only a matter of time before we'd start getting the real story. Oh look, a message from the US government:

"The Obama administration acknowledged for the first time Wednesday that last week's assault on the US consulate compound in Benghazi that left the US ambassador to Libya and three other Americans dead was a 'terrorist attack' apparently launched by local Islamic militants and foreigners linked to al-Qaida's leadership or regional allies.

"'I would say they were killed in the course of a terrorist attack,' said Matthew Olsen, director of the National Counterterrorism Center, told the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

"It was the first time that a senior administration official had said the attack was not the result of a demonstration over an anti-Islam video that has been cited as the spark for protests in dozens of countries over the past week .'The picture that is emerging is one where a number of different individuals were involved,' Olsen said." (source: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/09/19/169102/us-official-calls-benghazi-consulate.html)

And as we now know, Libya's president has beencampaigning that the attacks had be planned for a while.

Of course, we don't hear any of this information because of the American government. The Yanks can absolve themselves of anything when the masses believe this was over a youtube video. If people believe this outrage is over a youtube video, then people would logically overlook America's actions in the Middle East could spark violent protests. It's far easier for people on our side of the world to believe that Islam is a primitve religion over America's violence is causing a reaction of violence an anti-Americanism. It's far easier to blame the other than to acknowledge your own bad side. Of course, in an election year, Obama is most definitely going to keep these facts from being widely released and in major news sites as it shows him as being unable to protect diplomats in foreign land.

In other news, the people who were really behind the Arab Spring, secuarists, have been battling these Extremeists for days in Libya and Egypt. Of course, this has also been under-reported as it undermines Samuel Hungtington's Clash of the Civilizations.

Thanks I had also read about that but wasn't sure whether to bother posting it so I'm glad you did. Unfortunately the story's been framed based on lies and confirms so many peoples biases and prejudices that even if the truth is known and easily accessible, no one is going to report it or hear. The initial story won't get corrected and people wont ever even realize it was false. I think that is something that unfortunately happens far more often than we would like to think. Just look how easy it is to manipulate and fool millions of people without them never even knowing it!! Crazy!

 

[Miss*Bijou]

It's hunsperger....come on MB, you couldn't figure that out? I'm here for ya He was always a big fan of yours ound:

Good call! I figured it was someone like that...but had forgotten about Hunsperger! Totally makes sense that it would be him!

 

[myselftheother]

I'm sorry but the fact that I have personal knowledge and experience doesnt mean it makes my "opinions and such emotionally biased, based on emotion rather than reason" just because you say it does. Show me some evidence to support that, please. Otherwise ill call it for what it is, which is a convenient way to dismiss anything I might say, avoid having to provide anything to back up your case since we should see you as an objective, unbiased and supposedly unemotional party.

Honestly, aside from the paragraph where I shared a personal connection to the topic, I think you'd have a hard time demonstrating that my arguments are based on emotion - or that yours are not, actually. Your "arguments" essentially consist of your own (disproved) assumptions and your repeating of the same premise (that this applies uniquely and only to Islam) which we've already given more than one example that demonstrates none of these things are unique to Islam or apply only to Islam. You're doing no more than accept and repeat the fear mongering propaganda, which I'm sorry to tell you, is the very emotional response propaganda is used for.

But then, confusingly, even though we've all been clearly debating Islam for 8 pages, you declare that no, its all religions (whether or not you mean religion as a whole or just fundamentalism within all religions is unclear to me though). But while still claiming what seems to refer to Islam as "an idealology that obviously not working, leads to nothing but suppression of the masses, exploitation of lesser 'peoples', death, destruction and insanity"? (Or is that all religions?)

So which is it? Islam as whole, specifically? Religion as a whole? Or fundamentalism within all religions? Why are you changing your position now or changing the scope of what were actually discussing?

If you were referring to t religion in general and not only Islam specially, here's a quote from the Dalai Lama about this:

"All the world's major religions, with their emphasis on love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether."








Gosh you're really confusing! Im assuming you're ranting about Muslims? Because you could replace 'Muslims' with 'the US, Israel, Canada, Britain etc (aka 'the West') and it would actually fit more accurately than the way you've got.it now. ' The 'hating without knowing' is pretty popular in this part of the world these days,.don't you think? You don't even have to go further than this board... And the killing for oil and money, well, is it.really necessary to point out that 'tthe West' leads in the killing department BY FAR, and is the one after others oil - not the other way around? They're the ones bombing and occupying foreign countries - not the other way around. So really, why would you even ignore that and d put all the blame on one religion? (While all religions are used to justify horrible things too)

Sorry I find you really confusing to follow and I'm not even sure I understood you correctly!



Btw - there's nothing wrong with linking to Wikipedia. You people have to make up your mind: either you deal with links to sources where actual reading of often long texts is required or you deal with Wikipedia and get the condensed version. But people usually need to give sources to back up what they say and can't expect others to take their word for it. So its either one or the other, gotta pick one!

I guess you missed my point. I said that all religion is a poison, as well as certain ideologies that lead to evil being done in the name of god, oil, money...power...whether there be imams or clerics screaming 'death to america and the west' or Neytanyahoo (sp) calling for attacking Iran, Iran calling for the end of Isreal...etc etc...Republican candidates pushing for more war action in the middle east, China and Japan squabbling...things are getting tense.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Thank God we don't live in a country like Islamic Canada where Half of Canadian women (51%) have experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence since the age of 16.

DANG... those violaters have been busy the last few years!! :fear:

a few years ago it was 1 in 10, then i noticed last year the numbers had changed to 1 in 4, now you say it's 1 in 2!

sonofabitch, we'd better lock our daughters up and not let them out of their rooms - if we don't next thing you know they'll all be getting violenced upon!!! :faint:

 

[westcoast555]

I don't hear aggressive tones at all, all I hear is an eloquent speech of a statesman trying to defend his country from invasion. He mentioned Israel be wiped off the map, only if Iran is attacked.

He's on the record both denying the holocaust ever happened and as for calling for Israel's destruction. Look it up

 

[westcoast555]

I'll answer.
1. No separation between church and state - and if there is none, there is no connection between that and barbarism anyways. Theocracies are not necessarily barbaric. The Ottoman Empire was a theocracy, it was not barbaric while the Catholic Empire of Spain was truly barbaric at that time. Religious states aren't barbaric? Familiarize yourself with the Taliban. Or Saudi Arabia. Or what happens in Pakistan. Why are you talking about the Ottoman Empire? I'm talking about what happens now. ALL THEOCRACIES ARE REPRESSIVE AND BARABRIC.
2. Blasphemy laws are enforced, often by capital punishment. How is it any more barbaric than capital punishment for a murderer? YOU'RE EQUATING BLASPHEMY WITH MURDER? YOU MUST BE INSANE.
3. Rape is as common place in North America, with its culture of hyper-sexualization, as you might think it is in Islamic countries but you can't be sure about how "endemic" it is there. But you can be assured with hard data just how common rape is here, it is astounding. That the woman is automatically blamed for rape in those countries is a myth.
4. Women are systematically deprived of educational opportunities and personal autonomy, yes. That is the way it was in the industrial revolution in England. Every society has a ways to go towards women's equality.AGAIN, MORE FALSE EQUIVALENCE AND MISDIRECTION. THE TALIBAN REGULARLY ATTACK SCHOOLS FOR SIMPLY EDUCATING WOMEN.
5. False, absolutely a total lie.
6. False, absolutely a total lie.
7. False. The Koran urges scientific inquiry. Read it yourself, I have.
8. False for the most part. Islam was spread by conquest over Arabic lands, to oust the European invaders who are Caucasian, and to unite the Semitic peoples there. Islam spread peacefully throughout the rest of the world. It was Christianity that was spread by conquest, entire continents I might add.

What you see as the terrible extremes in violence and oppression in Islamic states today is the direct result of Western subjugation. Karen Armstrong calls this "an embattled religiosity" - that is a way of life of people who have for centuries been under the slave-like conditions and conquest of Europe, and with impending modernity everywhere seen as a more ominous threat to their own sovereignty. They risk losing their culture and identity as a people, and the last victory as Arabs that they have ever known was under the creation of Islam - thus their societies revert back to what had given them strength as a people. It is a regressive step backward in a way, but nevertheless the impetus is not Islam itself, it's the continued prejudice, insults, and oppression by the West.

Nothing you say makes any sense... not even going to address your other responses to my question. Not even worth it.