ummm.... It's Miss Bijou you are dealing with, so I think we already know the answer. Backing down or seeing a different view point is not one of her noted strengths...
Arab Spring nations don't yet grasp freedom of dissent (CNN)
- Thread starter tokugawa
- Start date
Here's a question for you Bijou. Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Would you be comfortable living in a muslim country? If so which one?
Which rights and liberties are you most comfortable giving up as a woman, minority and human being?
Which rights and liberties are you most comfortable giving up as a woman, minority and human being?
You guys are killing me!! The awful logic and arguing skills are just painful. How about one more person repeat the same worthless 'argument'? Who cares if it wasn't valid the first four times or so, it might just work the fifth time. Hey, if it comes from someone different, it's a new argument anyway, right?! Or maybe if you just keep repeating something eventually everyone else just believes and accepts it? I don't know, maybe that's why people are taking turns repeating the same non-argument? 
Thankfully I landed on this video and it cheered me up at least a little bit.. Have stuff to say in response of the latest nonsense - later.. :doh:
Thankfully I landed on this video and it cheered me up at least a little bit.. Have stuff to say in response of the latest nonsense - later.. :doh:
W
westcoast555
Pretty much sums it all up :thumb:Thank you
Actually the only worthless thing here is your mindless drivel that you copy and paste from other clueless libtards!You guys are killing me!! The awful logic and arguing skills are just painful. How about one more person repeat the same worthless 'argument'? Who cares if it wasn't valid the first four times or so, it might just work the fifth time. Hey, if it comes from someone different, it's a new argument anyway, right?! Or maybe if you just keep repeating something eventually everyone else just believes and accepts it? I don't know, maybe that's why people are taking turns repeating the same non-argument?
Thankfully I landed on this video and it cheered me up at least a little bit.. Have stuff to say in response of the latest nonsense - later.. :doh:
Like I said you just don't get out often and its ok for you to sit here and preach this acceptance bullshit while women like yourself get stoned for doing less than you do to earn a living!
That's funny, Anita. The ironic part is that I've addressed the alleged arguments yall of you have given but no one -not one- of you has made any sort of attempt to seriously explain why you think I'm so wrong and why the multitude of arguments ive made are either invalid, wrong or whatever else. You havent provided any arguments besides quoting some Koran out of context and declaring that proves there is some evil conspiracy. For most of this thread, you guys have attacked me basing your attacks on a complete misrepresentation of what my position actually is. That's what's insulting. Do you just not get it? Is it the concept of nuance in complex issues? Or is it deliberate because you won't accept anything that isn't all black or white, all good or all evil? I don't know. What is it?I'm sorry you have no sense of humor and I didn't end with anything I just posted a.q quick video while I was still writing my replies. My pc died on me so I've been writing on my phone whenever I'm out with my dog. Don't worry I did say I would post more later on.Actually, it is pretty rude to end a conversation - where others had the courtesy to bring up logical arguments - with a stupid joke. But I understand. You are on automatic pilot and ran out of arguments and have to go and check what the current politically correct reaction should be when somebody brings up facts as opposed to the wishful thinking that is being shoved down the throats of people today.
As a matter of fact, after I have noticed how wasted logical arguments are on you, I wasn't really talking to you, but everybody else who happened to read this thread. Let's hope that I was able to raise some awareness. And if I succeeded, I am happy
I wanted to chop some of it to appease the illiterates (not talking about you!) but I don't feel like doing it on my phone and I have no idea when my pc issue will be resolved. So im just going to post it as is.and If anyone wants to complain its too long, I suggest finding someone who cares to complain to because that's not me. Don't read it, its simple.
Anita, I did come across a couple of places where you might find some poor, submissive weak Muslim women for your rescue/liberation mission. Clearly someone needs to take charge for them (or of them?). Luckily though, most of them won't require any bombing or military assistance so it should be easy to accomplish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30asz_WnWsE
http://muslimswearingthings.tumblr.com
Well I'm glad no ones pretending not to be hateful bigots anymore. Admirable. Really. Makes.all of you sound just so...hmm...civilized, full of love and so rational. That video makes it impossible to deny our superiority! Amazing! How can we *not* think this highly of ourselves when we're just such examples for others (those who are inferior to us) to live by and
Fucking pathetic. And the saddest part is that It's now so mainstream to be loud ignorant full of yourself and bigoted that you aren't shamed for that utterly ugly display of racism. Seriously. I actually expected id probably find the video funny (I was expecting humor) but I didn't watch all of it it was so disgusting. The last fucking thing that guy should call himself is civilized. Bunch of racists. Arrr arrrr yes, definitely something to be proud of. Without racism you'd be a nobody. But as a racist, watch out people, because now you're fucking superior. Just ask any racist, he'll tell you. Disgusting, an embarrassing display. Wow. Fucking wow.
There's nothing respectable, legitimate or acceptable about advocating for this kind of ignorant, dishonest, deceptive and frankly, disgraceful intolerance, hate and bigotry. My definition of civilized and superior definitely does NOT include this kind of mindless zealotry. I realize its somehow because not only acceptable but also quite popular in these days, which is disturbing but let me state the obvious, which is that there will come a time when you will forced to sheepishly admit when this frenzy or wave of hate has finally run its course and loses its grip on the impressionable, UNINFORMED masses and the spell is broken, leaving you asking yourself what happened to you, how things came to this and got so ugly.
This isn't any different than other racist ideologies and just like antisemitism, it will eventualldescribed as vile and unacceptable. I'm glad I won't be in your shoes and facing myself and my own shameful words and beliefs. So enjoy the feelings of superiority, arrogance and perceived righteousness, guys. Enjoy it while it last because it'll be a long fall down to a painful landing on your ass from there once the islamophobia train ride's over. The irony about this tool in the video and fellow bigots comparing Islam to Nazism when all this rabid Muslim hate and irrational paranoia actually uses many of the same tactics and justification -no to mention the propaganda- as the Nazis did against Jews. Some of the themes have been adapted to Islam but the demonization, dehumanization and the reliance on fears and stereotypes is disturbing. The attacks on who ever doesn't want to drink your kool-aid is also pretty creepy. And it wouldn't be quite so ridiculous if there wasnt so much hate, aggressivity, didn't consist of ugly displays of nothing but negativity and wasnt so full of vitriolic hubris. Projecting, much?
But at least everyone at least seems to have dropped the pretenses and owned up to the racist nature of these beliefs. That was already obvious from the absence of actual arguments and of comments in response to any of the points I bothered to make but at least no one's pretending. Small comfort but when the rest is so depressing, you take what you can.
Omg this is so depressing. My faith in humans was already running low, you people are sucking out most of what was left. Ugh. This is all just so ugly.
:wave:an ole buckaroo i knew used to say, 'build a big wall around 'em, send in lotsa bullets and guns, then hang the last one left alive as a murderer'
me though, i never thought like that...
ound:Aah libtards. Well, can't say your use of that word altogether surprises me and it certainly says a lot about you and how you see the world. Probablya lot of 'us' and 'them'. Kind of like that idiot John Baird's story about who wears the white hats and who wears the black hats... If you have never heard it, look it up. Right up your alley.
So basically, you had nothing interesting or relevant tosayso you thought you'd post anyway with a lame personal attack that doesn't even work considering there are plenty of examples of posts of mine I've put quite a bit of time into writing myself. But if that made you feel good, then I'm sure it was worth it.
And considering its immediately followed by yet another personal attack, this time claiming I don't get out much - whatever the hell thats supposed to mean or what that has to do with anything or what makes you think you know anything about me or what I know or don't know. I don't pretend to know anything about you so don't make yourself look stupid by pretending to know anything about me as far as this is concerned.
As far as your newest irrelevant argument and latest representation... I never 'preached acceptance' of stoning of anyone or of any abuse of any kind. Show me a quote of where you claim I've 'preached' any such thing if you're going to make that claim. Of course you won't find one because there is none. ,
But following your logic, and given you've outted yourself as being on 'team 'Conservatives, how then do you reconcile your partisanship for a party that would love to jail you and prefers to endanger, criminalize and marginalize for doing what I do for a living so much that it will appeal a decision that is based on safety as many times as they can, hoping to make sure we aren't allowed a luxury such as personal safety. So does that mean I can say you must not get out much - to you? Or was there some special reason it applied to me?
Anyway.
Having lived in a couple Muslim countries and read a translation of the Koran doesn't make you an expert with absolute understanding and knowledge that makes anyone who disagrees wrong or clueless. I grew up with a close friend of my parents who was Muslim. I have worked with many Muslims and worked for Muslims. I have had a roommate who was Muslim and a boyfriend who also was. I have had friends and acquaintances who were Muslim. My brother is Muslim and his now ex wife is Muslim and she wear the hijab, because she chooses to and not because anyone pressures or forces her to wear it. I can guarantee you that my brother's has never beat her, or that either of them think their religion would condone it in any way. She's perfectly capable of standing up for herself, isn't fragile or on need of rescue or liberation. She doesn't need or appreciate being used as an example, often by men who are themselves sexist or misogynist, as an excuse to justify their racism .
My brother found out what I do not long after I started working as an sp. While it certainly wasn't easy initially, he loves me and got over it. But even before he got to that point, I can promise you there was never any suggestion of stoning me.
So say what you will -any of you- but my opinion is based on information, actual facts and people I personally know, some of them very well, and not on stereotypes, assumptions and generalizations. The overall level of vitriol on this thread and arrogant ignorance, not to mention the attacks, is truly infuriating and disgusting.
You see, we DO agree on something. Thank you for confirming my suspicion. I'm sure the women you claim to care about are thrilled that you compare them and seem to think of them as children. That's a nice bonus with the bombs, violence, killings and all the fun stuff you have in store for them so you can rescue them. Don't forget the crayons and playdoh to keep them busy while you decide what's best for them. You know... Keep them out of trouble and out of your hair while the grown ups are busy. :thumbs:
Thanks, I dug deep enough and felt like throwing up.
Don't know how old you are. I might have been just as naive at your age. Can't quite remember.
..... Says the same person who cherishes her right to remain unapologetically uninformed! LOL Oh the irony.
There is absolutely no logic behind that comment.
You seem to be having a difficult time actually addressing, let alone refuting, the many arguments you've been presented with. So I suppose a last ditch effort to find some excuse or another to dismiss the whole thing as naive isn't really so surprising. It was a good effort but unfortunately I'm afraid it doesn't work. Don't worry about me, I manage just fine. You've still not addressed any of my points so feel free to do that anytime you're up for it. I won't hold my breath.
Btw - Also, you seem to suffer from nausea quite a bit, Anita. You might want to see a doctor and make sure it isn't anything too serious....
Thatmakesnosenseatall.......
Again, total fail of logic. According to you. I like to be informed, to give thoughtful consideration to things and to get the facts about the issue before I decide. Stay level headed and make judgments after having the relevant facts. And that makes me gullible. Uh-uh. Alright there. Sure.
Well if the alternative is to rush to make knee jerk emotional judgments that have nothing to do with facts I prefer to stay uninformed about. Hm, you and I have a very different definition of what it means to be gullible or credulous.
But let's just use the dictionary definition.
Credulous:
adj.
willing to believe or trust too readily, especially without proper or adequate evidence; gullible.
Gullible:
adj.
easily deceived or cheated.
I've offered a whole load of reasons, facts and arguments based on logic, that back up my position. Clearly I've looked into it and considered it before going for the option that was backed up by facts. Can you say the same? No. So who's credulous and gullible here?
To use your odd pitbull example, you would be the one disregarding all the evidence discrediting the claims about pitbulls and the evidence showing the uselessness of breed selective legislation (pitbull ban) but still just keep pushing it and still convinced you're right even if you can't produce any real argument or evidence, and not be bothered by that at all. You'd force children and families to give up pets they love knowing many won't find new.homes and will have to be killed and you'd never even consider that it might be more responsible to at least make sure the evidence backs what you're doing.
You'd probably still refuse to acknowledge it long after most people agreed the facts supporting those methods were simply just not there and other less drastic and traumatizing solutions had been proven to much more efficient.
You see Anita, there is one key point you do not seem to grasp. I feel the same disgust, anger and revulsion in response to the barbaric acts and abuses against women and other victims. So you're all just completely missing the bus on that point by insisting that disagreeing with your unsupported and refuted assertions that Islam is to blame for all of it means that I am either claiming that none of these heinous crimes are true, that they don't matter or that I don't care (its not fully clear to me which of these it is you all believe is what I'm saying).
What you're missing, which I've already said but will repeat yet again, is that this would fall under 'basic logic and reasoning FAIL' . It makes no sense whatsoever to say that my view (complete with facts and valid arguments) that it is simplistic and illogical to lay all blame on Islam for these beliefs means that I don't care/deny/diminish the reprehensible beliefs and crimes we've mentioned.
I don't have to be convinced that it is an entire religion that is to blame. Obviously you're all going to ignore any of the points I make because it doesnt matter to any of you whether you can successfully support your conclusions because your mind was made up long before the thought of having logical arguments only occurred to you. You didn't bother with silly things like facts and arguments to come to your conclusions so you really can't be bothered to do it now. Perhaps you can't understand how I could resist your infinite wisdom and insist on actual facts instead of accepting what to you is so obvious information is unnecessary.
Not one of you has been able to understand that one doesn't lead to the other and this hysterical outrage is really stupid because it has nothing to do whatsoever with my actual position, which, actually, I've patiently explained and clarified numerous times already. Are you all this thick? Are you just ignoring anything that isn't in line with the conclusions you started with long ago? I don't get it. You're all intelligent people, that's not in question, so how is it that not one of you is able to understand what I'm actually saying but instead keep regurgitating the same useless 'argument' that isn't even relevant because its meant to be a response to a point I never actually made. What's the deal? If you're all just going to deliberately ignore it, you could show some courtesy and just let me know. At least I wouldn't waste my time and I'd stop assuming there's any serious desire to argue my points. I suspect this is the explanation but who knows.
Oh ffs, Anita. That's just retarded. You're the one who seems perfectly happy taking the absurd position that we are 'helping' and 'liberating' women by dropping bombs on their head, killing their husbands (or perhaps just torturing them for a year...or ten) and that we really don't have to concern ourselves with actually asking them what they want.. Not much concern either about the fact that we're doing the bombing and the killing but there's very little 'helping, rescuing or liberating' going on.
You've not managed to bring up any actual argument to support your position or to refute or even address mine. The best you've got is some silly insult about a position that isn't mine? Are you being deliberately dishonest or is that truly all you managed to get from my comments. Either way, that's what's truly sad. Give me a fucking break.
Do you even fucking know any Muslims in real life? Have you even ever spent time or actually talked to and listened to anyone who is Muslim? Men, women?
I seriously doubt it but if you ever bother to do that, it might come as a shock to you that 1.6 billion Muslims are individuals with individual views and beliefs. What's sad is that I am actually having to make that point! Or is it simply more less complicated to decide for them what they believe? To just imagine all of this as you read 1500 year old nonsense, literally, without any context, completely ignoring the exact same can be found in Christian and Jewish texts, (which isn't exactly surprising when those texts as old as they are and naturally reflect the customs and beliefs of the times...)?
I'm honestly at a loss to understand why none of you seem to be able acknowledge that many things in life are simply black or white. Or that under the pretense of caring about one injustice, we can create another and that's all good cause we say we mean well.
A tiny selection... There are MANY more.
You're right, clearly Christian and Jewish religious texts are way kinder to women. Almost romantic....not barbaric AT ALL.
A bit more? Oh... if you insist...
Lol
You're too much.
Again, glad to know adult women are the same as children to you. Ah, that white (wo)man's burden!
Say what you will, I still haven't seen one valid argument supporting your prejudice and emotional judgments or disproving mine. You may wonder how I can fail to see how wrong I am, I see the lack of arguments as a more objective way to determine that, thanks.
Well at least I actually have something relevant to add to the thread. And I actually read before I post anything. When you manage that, I might care that you're complaining. But probably not considering just a little biased and singling me out while I made it clear more than once that everyone is entitled to their opinion AND that we were going to have to disagree.
Let's see....my post said:
Miss*Bijou said:
But you chose to reply complain about what followed that post:
I don't see what exactly you think is wrong with the fact that I don't agree with someone and I don't 'back down'...which means, what? That I should really just agree with whatever someone else is saying for the sake of not having a different opinion? I mean, really.. Wth?
So why don't you let me know when you've actually got something relevant to say and then I will be more than happy to talk!
Thanks for coming out!
Oh please. She's of course entitled to her opinion. She's also made a lot of money. She's also kind of... well, a liar. And a bigot. And she's married to one - its kind of 'their thing'. Her husband is Niall Ferguson LOL aka Mr PRO Imperialism (he REALLY makes me want to puke! Lol). They've both been caught for their lies, they're professional propagandist - nothing really impressive about that. Ayan was caught and forced to admit to having fabricated most of her story.
The part about being subjected to genital mutilation is unfortunately true though as far as I know. But we've already established that this tradition has nothing to do with Islam and actually pre-dates it. Also:
"Circumcision of girls (female genital cutting) is highest in the predominantly Muslim countries of Mali and Djibouti but is more common among Christians than among Muslims in Uganda."
The thing about Ayan is that she just replaced Islam/religion for atheism/anti-Islam but she's just as much of a fundamentalist about her new beliefs - that part hasn't changed. Honestly the problem is not religion or atheism, it's fundamentalism in either of those beliefs. So I'm glad she can provide confirmation or validation of your own prejudices but this is how she makes her living, the more vitriol she dishes out about Islam, the more she makes people happy.. people who then reward her with speaking fees, book sales, professional opportunities, attention, praise and a "career"!. Of course she's going to play the part.
With her husband, they're mouthpieces for the far rightwingers who love to have Brown ex-Muslims they can point to and say 'You see, I *am* right and I'm *not* being bigoted because this person agrees with me - she used to be Muslim so she's knows what she's talking about and she assures me I'm not bigoted and criticism of Islam is not islamophobia (which, of course, it isn't - but legitimate criticism of specific practices does not accurately describe the types of beliefs they promote.)
Someone who makes legitimate critical comments about some Muslim practices or beliefs doesn't get accused of islamophobia and has no need to legitimize themselves by getting some stamp of approval by the ex-Muslim. (I am perfectly able to criticize some things without anyone ever calling it islamophobia...because its not. And the difference is pretty obvious.)
Right now islamophobia is all the rage, she's one individual among a whole little industry of professional haters - many of them ex Muslims - and bigots cashing in on the current hysteria, especially within neo-cons.
She doesn't do anything for me though,.sorry. She's still entitled to her opinion but it doesn't represent what other Muslim women have told me themselves. Good for her. Not my kind of people though.
Btw - spare me the stupid 'left wing' sneers, attacks or drivel, will you. That shit is just really lame and so niaginative. Not to mention *surprise!* painfully simplistic.
Ok I'm not being sarcastic and I'm genuinely asking because I really don't understand how that relates or what the connection is? I can sort of answer but I think I'm missing part of what you're getting at because I don't see how that relates...?
Well yes, I can say that as far as place like Afghanistan and remote villages in Pakistan, for example, are concerned - yes, the vast majority of the population has zero access to the internet (Afghanistan has a population of around 25 million, 1.5 million are nomads -and I don't think they have WiFi lol 74% live in rural areas. Rural areas often consisting if isolated remote villages without infrastructure or access to basic services; 42% lives below the poverty line and only 28% of Afghans are literate) so I think its fair to conclude that the internet is pretty low on their radar or their list of priorities.
Most Afghans have no idea about 9/11 or terrorist attacks. Many don't know why NATO is there or the reasons for the war, while others think the aim is to defeat Islam or conquer Afghanistan.
-------------
KABUL -- In America, it's difficult to find anyone who doesn't know precisely where they were on 9/11.
Not so in Afghanistan. There, many people never heard the news of those coordinated attacks a decade ago, or, if they did, had little sense that it would dramatically change their world.
That change came 26 days later, when the U.S. invoked the self-defense clause of NATO's charter and led a military intervention in Afghanistan.
That campaign, starting October 7, 2001, first toppled the hard-line Taliban regime, then brought more than 100,000 foreign soldiers to Afghanistan in a continuing effort to stabilize the country.
So perhaps it should be no surprise that Americans and Afghans tend to think of 9/11 differently.
...
A survey in 2010 found that a majority of people interviewed in two southern Afghan provinces -- Helmand and Kandahar -- were unaware of the September 11 terrorist attacks on the United States. The study by the International Council on Security Development reported that 92 percent of 1,000 Afghan men in the two restive provinces knew nothing about the attacks and that 40 percent believed the international forces' goal is to destroy Islam or to occupy or destroy Afghanistan.
http://www.rferl.org/content/what_afghans_know_about_911/24318456.html
-----------
The population in the larger cities or urban areas may be more educated, have more money and access to this information. But they also don't seem to be the ones calling for public stonings and were among the first to shed the burqua and return to work when the Taliban fled early on.
These are people who have been in one war or another for 3 decades, a country in which whatever infrastructure there was, it has been completely destroyed. The US backed, funded, armed and trained what became the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan. They supported them as 'freedom fighters' when they happened to be fighting the Russians whom the US considered an enemy.
Back then Jihad was A-ok as far as the Americans were concerned. They encouraged them to recruit young men in other Muslim countries and they were fine with their religious fundamentalism. There was no concern for women or for the fact that Afghanistan, prior to these conflicts, was actually quite modern, definitely a lot more modern than what it has become. (See these photos for an interesting view: ) If war wasn't bad enough, the warlords and then the Taliban only made things worst. But the US certainly had much to do with the creation of both groups.
That's called interference. That's called manipulating events and consequences. There is no denying that. It is like doing some scientific experiment but instead of being mere observer who documents the outcome and the results, you start tinkering with various things; you change the temperature half way through, you leave one ingredient or steps out, you don't follow the timing. In the end, your results can't be relied on. Maybe all your tinkering made no difference and you got the same result you would have got if you'd followed all the steps, but how do you know? How can you? You cant know for sure.
Well when you do this on a real life population, over a number of years and in order to benefit yourself, you create some very unnatural circumstances. And given that the power balance is totally off, if you hold much of the power, that means that others will be on the opposite side of the scale and have little power since you've taken it from them. The decks are stacked against them with very little they can do, especially if while this is playing out they have no way of knowing this is happening.
I wasn't aware that Germans living now were held responsible for crimes that happened before they were born? Are you referring to something in particular. As far as those who were alive at the time, I'm not sure anyone can truly claim to have not known. Very likely that many or most preferred not to know but that is only attributed to denial and not to lack of knowledge or genuine ignorance.
But anyway... To answer your question, no i don't think it helps or is necessary to take on the personal responsibility for the actions and crimes committed before one is even born. But just like we insist on sharing the pride of accomplishments that are part of our history, we do need to accept, to acknowledge and repair to a reasonable and realistic extent the crimes and injustices of previous generations. That's also why we need to consider what sort of legacy we want to and will leave and be remembered for by those who come after us; will they feel pride or shame?
When I consider some of our ancestors crimes and genocide against aboriginal people, I definitely think we inherited a responsibility. Unfortunately we're not fulfilling that responsibility very well and are a long way from being able to say that justice has been repaired. Because we still have hard core colonisers' mentality and we still see ourselves as superior. Even if we claim that's not true, reality tells a different story. And that denial and defensiveness just demonstrate its still there deep down, a part of the beliefs and illusions that make up our culture.
And this thread shows how people don't even realize how deep those beliefs are and how they influence the way they see the world outside of their own familiar culture... Hope that makes sense.
+1, for someone who bitches that people here are wasting her time she spends an amazing amount of time digging up and posting utter crap that probably less than 10% actually read.
I agree WHOLE CLOTH with Miss Bijou's opinion on the matter. I congratulate her for having the guts (well, she usually does anyway) for speaking her opinion and being unapologetic about it. Furthermore, her point of view is one of the few balanced, non-prejudiced, non-racist perspectives here that also accomodates a realistic appraisal of Arab history with its subjugators, the West.
I am not a Muslim, but I have studied their faith. I believe that unless you are willing to walk a mile in their shoes, you will never ever understand.
As for Ayan Hirsi Ali, an entertaining figure who happens to be married to one of my favourite intellectuals Neil Ferguson, unfortunately herself has fallen victim to integrating the oppression of the West. In her personal life, she submits to her intellectual enemy by marrying Ferguson, and he undoubtedly is seen as her liberator by fulfilling her hope to become white.
Unfortunately I turned into this thread rather late, or I would have helped Miss Bijou along. But from previous experience, the Islamophobia is prevalent and ingrained, it's almost hopeless to try. It also seems to me that those most plagued with it are WASP because WASPs live in a world that was built to serve their interests and have thus no frame of reference for the other, a loss of identity because there is no comparable contrast to help solidify their own cultural identity, and everyone but them is an other and not a peer. By contrast, those who are not WASPs, live every day in a society created by them, and endure social values and political views that are WASP oriented. Their own identity is solidified by this. Thus WASPs are unable to empathize with those outside their own culture, and even when they try they can only use their own parallels that imitate empathy and understanding.
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you judge, and condemn your own bias before then.
I am not a Muslim, but I have studied their faith. I believe that unless you are willing to walk a mile in their shoes, you will never ever understand.
As for Ayan Hirsi Ali, an entertaining figure who happens to be married to one of my favourite intellectuals Neil Ferguson, unfortunately herself has fallen victim to integrating the oppression of the West. In her personal life, she submits to her intellectual enemy by marrying Ferguson, and he undoubtedly is seen as her liberator by fulfilling her hope to become white.
Unfortunately I turned into this thread rather late, or I would have helped Miss Bijou along. But from previous experience, the Islamophobia is prevalent and ingrained, it's almost hopeless to try. It also seems to me that those most plagued with it are WASP because WASPs live in a world that was built to serve their interests and have thus no frame of reference for the other, a loss of identity because there is no comparable contrast to help solidify their own cultural identity, and everyone but them is an other and not a peer. By contrast, those who are not WASPs, live every day in a society created by them, and endure social values and political views that are WASP oriented. Their own identity is solidified by this. Thus WASPs are unable to empathize with those outside their own culture, and even when they try they can only use their own parallels that imitate empathy and understanding.
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you judge, and condemn your own bias before then.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with the point of views presented here, one has to admire the conviction demonstrated by MB on this topic.
One would have to feel quite passionately about a subject to study and write about it in that detail and at that length.
To dismiss it as 'crap that no one wants to read' is quite disrespectful of someone's opinions. No one forces you to engage in these discussions or read a contrarian point of view.
MB, thank you also for sharing your family background. I had wondered what your connection was to the subject to cause you to speak with such passion on the subject. Now we know.
One would have to feel quite passionately about a subject to study and write about it in that detail and at that length.
To dismiss it as 'crap that no one wants to read' is quite disrespectful of someone's opinions. No one forces you to engage in these discussions or read a contrarian point of view.
MB, thank you also for sharing your family background. I had wondered what your connection was to the subject to cause you to speak with such passion on the subject. Now we know.
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