G20 Toronto Police Rape Threats
- Thread starter Steez
- Start date
ok sorry but this one is seriously disturbing... no?!
I'm a little freaked out - to be very honest.
I'm a little freaked out - to be very honest.
H
HubbaHubba
While I see where you're coming from Dood, I still have to strongly respectfully disagree and apologize in advance for a long post. In my opinion, the point isn't what we might think is "common sense" because clearly that's all relative and depends on one's perspective, their values, priorities and what is important to them.
Ok so maybe it is common sense to you to stay away from this kind of situation because of the risks. But in reality, whether or not there is any risk, you stay away anyway, meaning you are not prone to activism, protest and so on.. so really, this is just what you would choose to do regardless of whether or not you perceived a situation as more risky. The majority of us sit back and say "what a shame" when we hear of some injustice happening out there. Especially because it does not affect us or anyone we know personally, we aren't overly concerned or motivated in doing much about it. So we move on to other things and forget about it. And that's fine. But that doesn't mean that everyone else chooses that route or that they should be expected to!
There are people out there who don't just flip to a different channel. Either because they are personally affected by some injustice or because they cannot accept that others are. These people do it out of conviction, passion and they are the people who in the past, have been successful in and are responsible for what are now our rights - but started out as injustices not so long ago. It's so much easier to do nothing than it is to fight. And while it certainly doesn't mean we're awful because we don't, those that choose to deserve support and recognition for doing the dirty we aren't willing to - for whatever reason.
The point isn't about whether or not we feel they should not have been there. These were people who were there in spite of the risks because they felt strongly about it, because that is the reason they do what they do. Expecting them not to have gone, is absolutely ridiculous. We can criticize and say they just should not have gone but all that is, is telling them they should just be like us and, you know, do nothing. That's absurd. What they were there for was not illegal, out of thousands of protesters, the vast majority were protesting peacefully, which they have every right to do so - regardless of whether you, me or anyone else thinks they shouldn't have bothered with.
In addition to that, the fact that a tiny fraction of those protesters were allowed to destroy property (not people) for almost 2 hours without any kind of police intervention does not in any way shape or form result in them (those non-violent, peaceful protesters) being to blame for being there. The police violence and abuse was absolutely disproportionate and it was directed at people who were peaceful, not at those responsible for the the property destruction.
The reasoning behind what you're saying is essentially identical to the "blame the rape victim" argument; by holding her responsible for being raped because afterall she did invite him in - what did she think was going to happen?! (Or an example that is more personal: blaming an sp who has been raped because afterall she is a prostitute so what did she think was going to happen) It's the same exact thing in this instance; whatever we think they should or shouldn't not have done or what we think they should have expected was going to happen is just our own personal opinion based on our beliefs and our priorities, which are not theirs, nor should they be, simply because we think they should.
They are not to blame.
It should not even be considered valid or fair to direct blame on those peaceful protesters, bystanders or journalists who were just doing their job - for the police violence, intimidation and threats they suffered. Blame the few who were responsible for the damage if you must blame any of the protesters (I don't, I still think a lot of it still wouldn't have been justified even if it had been directed at those protesters alone but that's just my opinion.) but aside from their part of the blame, the only ones who should be blamed, because they were their own actions, is the police.
If you haven't had a chance to do so yet, please watch the last video I posted and the first article linked and that is exactly what I am talking about. No one should be blamed for having been treated that way. There is no excuse. It's disgusting and these people (those who's actions are described in the article) should not be given this kind of power because clearly they can not handle it and do not deserve it. The only thing they deserve is to be in jail themselves. That is not acceptable police behavior, these are criminals - or thugs, as they were appropriately referred to.
Someone posted earlier that the difference between police work 50 years ago and now is that police were respected then. I'm sorry but respect earned not given away. Respect goes both ways..and these actions do not deserve any respect. Certainly not from me.
Ok so maybe it is common sense to you to stay away from this kind of situation because of the risks. But in reality, whether or not there is any risk, you stay away anyway, meaning you are not prone to activism, protest and so on.. so really, this is just what you would choose to do regardless of whether or not you perceived a situation as more risky. The majority of us sit back and say "what a shame" when we hear of some injustice happening out there. Especially because it does not affect us or anyone we know personally, we aren't overly concerned or motivated in doing much about it. So we move on to other things and forget about it. And that's fine. But that doesn't mean that everyone else chooses that route or that they should be expected to!
There are people out there who don't just flip to a different channel. Either because they are personally affected by some injustice or because they cannot accept that others are. These people do it out of conviction, passion and they are the people who in the past, have been successful in and are responsible for what are now our rights - but started out as injustices not so long ago. It's so much easier to do nothing than it is to fight. And while it certainly doesn't mean we're awful because we don't, those that choose to deserve support and recognition for doing the dirty we aren't willing to - for whatever reason.
The point isn't about whether or not we feel they should not have been there. These were people who were there in spite of the risks because they felt strongly about it, because that is the reason they do what they do. Expecting them not to have gone, is absolutely ridiculous. We can criticize and say they just should not have gone but all that is, is telling them they should just be like us and, you know, do nothing. That's absurd. What they were there for was not illegal, out of thousands of protesters, the vast majority were protesting peacefully, which they have every right to do so - regardless of whether you, me or anyone else thinks they shouldn't have bothered with.
In addition to that, the fact that a tiny fraction of those protesters were allowed to destroy property (not people) for almost 2 hours without any kind of police intervention does not in any way shape or form result in them (those non-violent, peaceful protesters) being to blame for being there. The police violence and abuse was absolutely disproportionate and it was directed at people who were peaceful, not at those responsible for the the property destruction.
The reasoning behind what you're saying is essentially identical to the "blame the rape victim" argument; by holding her responsible for being raped because afterall she did invite him in - what did she think was going to happen?! (Or an example that is more personal: blaming an sp who has been raped because afterall she is a prostitute so what did she think was going to happen) It's the same exact thing in this instance; whatever we think they should or shouldn't not have done or what we think they should have expected was going to happen is just our own personal opinion based on our beliefs and our priorities, which are not theirs, nor should they be, simply because we think they should.
They are not to blame.
It should not even be considered valid or fair to direct blame on those peaceful protesters, bystanders or journalists who were just doing their job - for the police violence, intimidation and threats they suffered. Blame the few who were responsible for the damage if you must blame any of the protesters (I don't, I still think a lot of it still wouldn't have been justified even if it had been directed at those protesters alone but that's just my opinion.) but aside from their part of the blame, the only ones who should be blamed, because they were their own actions, is the police.
If you haven't had a chance to do so yet, please watch the last video I posted and the first article linked and that is exactly what I am talking about. No one should be blamed for having been treated that way. There is no excuse. It's disgusting and these people (those who's actions are described in the article) should not be given this kind of power because clearly they can not handle it and do not deserve it. The only thing they deserve is to be in jail themselves. That is not acceptable police behavior, these are criminals - or thugs, as they were appropriately referred to.
Someone posted earlier that the difference between police work 50 years ago and now is that police were respected then. I'm sorry but respect earned not given away. Respect goes both ways..and these actions do not deserve any respect. Certainly not from me.
I caught 2 spelling errors on the propaganda piece.ok sorry but this one is seriously disturbing... no?!
I'm a little freaked out - to be very honest.
hm ok. well that's really helpful. Maybe you could actually discuss why you feel that way?
This video genuinely freaked me out (I saw another one that was filmed a better angle first and there was much more disturbing stuff in that video but the filming was so crappy I didn't post it), and I was honestly trying to see a different side to it, which is kind of what I was hoping someone here would provide.
I will be completely honest here, I find it very disappointing that very few are actually able to contribute to an interesting exchange or engage in a discussion. If the comments aren't plain insulting, they are false and lack any actual real facts or they are absolutely useless to any honest discussion. Yes, I know, perb is probably not where I should expect this. So sue me.
You know what? Maybe I get carried away and too passionate about some topics and I know some don't like that..and it may come as a shock to some but I am actually trying to get something out of a discussion, just as I hope I can give as well. And I will be honest about this; if you don't want to actually take part in a discussion by contributing in a valuable way.... then why the fuck do you just not participate? Because truthfully there is nothing more insulting than trying to have a discussion, when clearly my time and energy are just wasted. I'm sorry but that is very rude.
Thanks dood for sharing your point of view, much appreciated.
Jim, nothing personal but when it comes to your above reply, in this specific instance, you suck.
And no, I'm not PMSing but I do think some of you just enjoy being jerks and that, totally sucks.
Bleh.
I'm out (yes, for real this time. lol)
The problem with comparing the G8 summit in Calgary in 2002 with the G20 summit in Toronto in 2010 is that you've got at least three major variables in play: the city (which you've mentioned), but also the year and the economic climate. I've read that there are "professional protestors" who go to conferences like this mainly so they can bust stuff up and hide behind the anonymity of the crowd. If that is true, it is no doubt more organized through the Internet in 2010 than it was in 2002. The other factor is that these are difficult economic times, and the frustation spills out at a time like this. That being said, it would be interesting what would happen if they held this conference in say, Banff. Probably worth a try, given what happened in TO.Speaking of this, I was listening to CBC Radio 1's morning show the other day and they were talking about this. Calgary hosted the G8 summit in 2002 & they were comparing the numbers. In Toronto over 1000 people were arrested, yet in the G8 summit in Calgary there was only 12 arrests. The summit happened here in the summer of 2002 & included Bush and Tony Blair and was just months after 911. There were huge protests but apparently because the actual thing was hosted in K - Country (towards the mountains) many of the protest groups didn't bother to show up (you can't protest in the woods). The summit was rather tame. I think that says something. I lived here during the summit and I remember a huge police presence especially near the Telus Convention Centre yet I certainly didn't have any fear walking around. Even during the protest march I walking downtown to a clients and it was just people chanting with signs...no smashed windows, no burning cop cars.
Perhaps there is a lesson in that? I will say one thing, as a person that regularly endures snide comments from people I know back in the East about how I moved to a "Cowboy Redneck Town" it was pleasant to hear the comparison. Well guess I better get my shotgun, dog and truck and head out for sushi.
As for the woman's rape allegations, I think if there are protestors willing to set police cars on fire, they will have no problem lying and making unfounded accusations into a camera. Because of this, I'm willing to wait for more evidence on this before I give her any more credibility. With her journalism background, she should be able to find out who threatened her this way and let the legal system take its course. She said the young girls who were detained didn't know their rights like she did, well now's her chance to prove it.
Plus, I just did a Google search on Amy Miller, the woman making the accusations in the video. She is an "independent journalist for alternative media." So as far her worrying about credibility, we're not talking about a reporter for Reuters or the New York Times here.
H
HubbaHubba
The funny part is you guys (and gal) can go back and forth on this all day long and we still won't know the TRUTH.
Y'know, they could just threaten rape to scare someone without actually even considering doing it. I'd think just being threatened with rape by cops (or anyone for that matter) would scare the shit out of you...and in that situation where it's probably complete chaos, you don't know if the cops are going to drag you to a room and fuck you over or not.
Not saying that it really happened or not, but just because they were in a room with 25 others doesn't mean it didn't happen. You get a bunch of people in a position of authority with the knowledge that NOTHING will happen to them and shit like this could occur. I think cops have a hard job, but the way they handled G20 was a disgrace.
Not saying that it really happened or not, but just because they were in a room with 25 others doesn't mean it didn't happen. You get a bunch of people in a position of authority with the knowledge that NOTHING will happen to them and shit like this could occur. I think cops have a hard job, but the way they handled G20 was a disgrace.
Hey dummy if a cop is seraching a woman and he just fingers her, thast legally considered rape. Any un watned penetration. You think shes gonna get fucked like a porno in a cage with witnesses. Are you REALLY that daft?
Thos pics were taken AFTER the cells were empty.
I think you bring up a good point in your last paragraph when you talk about the authority they wield. I remember after the first day of the Vancouver Olympics when they were dealing with the protesters. The Vancouver police chief made a good decision and told the police to be more proactive and engage the crowds with friendly banter and light talk. It worked. The times I went downtown the police were very professional and it made everyone feel at ease. No more problems for the rest of the Olympics If they acted that way all the time, instead of acting like they are better then everyone else, they would get much better results.
