Why is Europe mostly socialist?

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Bobert1969

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You know down south that country that is in turmoil.... Yes the United States. Why, they are having the exact same debate, capitalism and socialism. Just in a different form. The problem with capatalism is greed. Only rained in by the government. When the government is corrupt and senators and congressmen take bribes and are too busy making it them or us issues, the rest of their population suffers. The greed in the US, poisoned land and bodies of water. Cutting off budget to the Environmental agency, and opening up land for development makes it easier for capitalism to pollute. The rich simply move away after the destruction of the land.

Socialism is a dirty word, for business people. It means extra taxes, and it goes for people who don't work for it. Socialism also makes employers pay more for the worker than the owner wants (this is why US business do their manufacturing in China and Tiwan and Mexica- cheaper labour). Why there is a middle class today. The rise of union in the early 1900s saw to a stabilzation of the middle class and increase due the sharing of the wealth created by manufacturing. And Why there is also health care, unemployment benifits, welfare, and programs for job training etc. Capitalist govenments would have none of that, it cost them profit.

Right now Russia is a country run by oligarths, rich men making profits from everything they control. Its not communism, its a diatatorship run by rich guys....

Canada is a socalist government. So are most of the European countries. They have health care, welfare, social programs, pension plans etc. Yes the economy is capitalist, but money earned goes to the government to pay for social reforms and programs to keep the populace stable and relatively happy, so there are no revolutions and civil uprisings.

If it was a system that worked, then why is Spain and Italy and Greece failing in the European Union, spending too much money on social system, corruption etc. Europe has gone socialist only after WW2 , that was 1945. Canada didn't get universal health care until the late 50s.

It is said rich people get there by working off the backs of their employees. Mostly its because they hold monopolies in the form of patents.

"The problem with capatalism is greed."

This is the problem with any government and to apply this to capitalism is disingenuous.

"Canada is a socalist government. So are most of the European countries. They have health care, welfare, social programs, pension plans etc. Yes the economy is capitalist, but money earned goes to the government to pay for social reforms and programs to keep the populace stable and relatively happy, so there are no revolutions and civil uprisings."

Your definition covers the US as well since as of 2011, the US spent more on welfare related services than any other single line item in the national budget, surpassing even defense spending at over 1 trillion dollars.
https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/m...ng The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf
"If it was a system that worked, then why is Spain and Italy and Greece failing in the European Union, spending too much money on social system, corruption etc. "

It's not because of their social care systems. It's because they borrowed too much money early after entering the EU and the 2008 economic crisis nailed them. They've been plagued with high unemployment, a "brain drain" where there was a mass exodus of production talent to other more prosperous countries and their GDP plummeted, among other things. Particularly hard hit were Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain, aka "PIGS".
 

80watts

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House of cards is falling, with Covid and now these forest fires and climate splooge. Isn't the world allready in a global recession with overpriced land values and undervalued workers who are key to any industrilized country. Watch the anarchrists come out and burn the cities, which will get the ball rolling down hill....
As long as people get food and have shelter......
 

Cloud 500

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"The problem with capitalism is greed."
Humans are greedy you forget that. Why would anyone work if they get nothing out of it? Even in nature animals do work for themselves.

"Canada is a socialist government. So are most of the European countries. They have health care, welfare, social programs, pension plans etc. Yes the economy is capitalist, but money earned goes to the government to pay for social reforms and programs to keep the populace stable and relatively happy, so there are no revolutions and civil uprisings."
Canada is not Socialist it is Capitalistic with a strong welfare state only certain things are Socialist like healthcare. Socialism advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange is controlled by a central system like a government. Venezuela and Cuba are what you call socialist. Canada does have a communist/socialist party. In Canada's history other various socialist/communist parties existed
 

Bobert1969

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Humans are greedy you forget that. Why would anyone work if they get nothing out of it? Even in nature animals do work for themselves.



Canada is not Socialist it is Capitalistic with a strong welfare state only certain things are Socialist like healthcare. Socialism advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange is controlled by a central system like a government. Venezuela and Cuba are what you call socialist. Canada does have a communist/socialist party. In Canada's history other various socialist/communist parties existed
If you'll notice, you quoted me quoting another member and I agreed with your position 100%.
 

marsvolta

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Humans are greedy you forget that. Why would anyone work if they get nothing out of it? Even in nature animals do work for themselves.



Canada is not Socialist it is Capitalistic with a strong welfare state only certain things are Socialist like healthcare. Socialism advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange is controlled by a central system like a government. Venezuela and Cuba are what you call socialist. Canada does have a communist/socialist party. In Canada's history other various socialist/communist parties existed
no. this is exactly what i'm talking about when so much inaccurate rhetoric is flying about promoted by political systems that are trying to force some binary choice. Canada, the US... most western democracies, are mixed economies. thats a mix of socialism and capitalism. indeed, Cuba can be called socialist... if that term means that there is no capitalism. but its entirely inaccurate to say that socialism isn't an extremely important part of western democracies and supports capitalism in a massive way. its not just health care. its all roads, rail, electricity, water, education, military, sewage, garbage... etc. hell, democracy is a socialist construct. " Social democracy is a political, social and economic philosophy within socialism[1] that supports political and economic democracy.[2] As a policy regime, it is described by academics as advocating economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal-democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented mixed economy."

socialism is extremely important in our economy. in fact, name a country that is purely capitalistic! a country where every morning people wake up and make some personal selection regarding what person or company supplies them with border security, water, sewage, power, roads etc etc... it doesn't work. its extremely inefficient. i've always described western mixed economies as a tasty cake. the thick cake is the socialism and the creamy sweet frosting is capitalism. any cake without cake or frosting is no fun! it could also be argued that pure socialism doesn't work either, as places like Cuba probably wouldn't exist without the extensive amount of black market capitalism that goes on there.

not accusing you of this but if only people who shoot their mouths off about "socialism" had any clue... because they don't.
 
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Fuckbot

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In first year econ, we were shown that no country is purely capitalist or socialist and this binary form of thinking is outdated. People's mentality is shaped by a media crusade against socialism which was the ideological paradigm at the time of the cold war: if you are against this capitalist system, you are a filthy, godless, destined for failure communist, resigned to live off of the money other people earn and inherently lazy as you have no god given selfish spark to hoard all wealth for yourself.

The fact is, we studied in econ 101, most states are hybrids with no state having the political appetite to practice an ideological pure form of either system.

In practice, most people think that any country with benefits in place for all people with the state bearing the majority of the cost are "socialist".

Canada's few socialist benefits include:
-unviversal healthcare
-subsidized college - not free, but not 4x the cost as in the usa
-a standing armed forces
-postal service
-cost controlled dairy
-social assistance
-old age pension
-disability benefits
-employment insurance
-maternal leave of 1 year
-price controlled pharmaceuticals
-(in BC) $15 min wage

Of course, at every turn, Canada has a sizeable population who are very profit minded and malign all these services as they perceive it to be hindering their wealth growth. So at every turn they attempt to steer the political process with an aim to whittle these services down merely to cut their tax rate and thus ensure more money in their pockets to spend in the Canadian free market - usually equating to more mansion, more stock portfolio, more cars, more prestige with net worth increasing.

In the United States, to make a comparison, even the Democratic party here would be considered neo fascist in some regards. Obamacare is so disheartening because all it could compromise to accomplish was to make private insurance companies insure people they otherwise would not insure. It is tear jerking. In Canada, each province has established an insurance company that everyone is required to be enrolled in. Those at a certian level of income pay premiums, those below, pay no premiums. In BC, our premiere , perhaps with a better grasp on our provinces' capital outlays for the long term, eliminated premiums all together. The government is currently paying all premiums. Finally, as an added, capitalist layer, many peoplr have private, American type, employment based health insurance to cover you for things not included in basic coverage, like dental care.

Much like basic economics, most people do not have a grasp for what insurance actually means. Insurance in simple terms is the money of the many being pooled to pay for the losses of the few. If that sounds familiar, well, it is rather an advanced product of capitlaism - socialism! The only difference with the Canadian, public, compulsory, provincial insurance companies and their private, free market, usually employment based insurance cousins, is the profit motive. Candian medical insurance companies are not set up to make a profit. There is no motivation to deny coverage or null and void policies. There are no deductibles to pay. These are huge differences as you may see that human misery is the result of medical insurance companies having a huge profit motive and achieving it. In the United States, much like Canada, economic gains externalize costs - mcdonalds sells cheap burgers, turns a profit, does not have the extra tax burden of having to care for complications in obesity, diabetese and cardiac failure or cancer from processed cheese - these costs are born by citizens alone through private insurance plans that may not cover you and may cripple you if you get sick. Oil companies, tobacoo companies, etc all get to make profit without the added tax burden of having to care for the cancer patients their profits produce. In Canada, everyone shares in this cost. The rich bitch about how they don't get to fly, but there are enough Canadians presently to outvote this mentality, for the time being.

Healthcare is just one example where the American rich have gamed the system to ensure they pocket more of their own "earnings". The pork barrel, endless enemy making, military industrial complex is another. The gutting of public education is another. $40k a year tuition universities is another. Financial assistance for the masses stonewalled during a pandemic because turtle man mitch mconnell insisting the aid package come with a massive tax cut for the rich is another. The slashing of environmental protections so america can be great again is another. The use of illegal migrant workers as a sort of modern day slave is another. This system is actually just (if you watch oliver stone's untold history of usa documentary on netflix) merely a continution of the national socialist (nazi) ideology carried out in a watered down form (so, the fight against stalin continued by other means) with the help of key elements of the nazi regime who were transpalnted to the usa who was already praciticing a form of fascism despite the efforts of Roosevelt and JFK with their notions of taking America down a path much like Canada actually took.

America is steeped in a debate of whether or not socialsim is good - do you want to end up like Venezuela? When really, the rich paying a fair share of taxes, especially corporations, so that a system of benefits to help all people when they need it, is just a rational, good form of governance on the part of elected officals who are not beholden to corporate interests. But then again, how would this message get out into the American mindset when at a very large level, this communist threat is systemically shut down?

There is no real socialist country and any country that claims this, such as Venezuela, is operating in a form of unipolar defiance against American hegemony which would gladly bloodlet (vietnam, Iraq, Syria etc) your country to make a bloody example should the people within its own borders shake off the mentality of accepting being serfs to the modern day feudal lords who live off their captivity while the people fight to keep their shackles on, lest they become like the pariah state, Venezuela, which America's central and military intelligence agencies ensured would be created.
 
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PuntMeister

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Great Question 80watts! Thanks for the post.

After a bit of a slow start due to a few dismissers, this thread has become insightful and thought provoking. I have enjoyed the hearty dialogue and inquisitive debates.
- Definitions of Socialism vs. Capitalism in modern developed economies, and how these notions evolve and play out
- Mixed economies (and political systems), and the symbiotic necessity of social support systems in progressive capitalistic market economies
- Extremist viewpoints, Communism, Dictatorships, and human well-being

i would like to hear some more about the OP’s original question pertaining to European “Levels of Socialism” [quotes mine to try and flow with the intent of the original question], without getting too hung up on definitions and dogma. I find the taxation data useful in this regard. There are lots of different sources that slice and dice national taxation comparisons, but the pretty much all show European countries at the top, and well above the OECD average.

In addition to the history of Monarchy rule, the impact of WW1 and WW2, and proximity to powerful players with scary political and religious differences, I sense there are a few other factors at play, such as:

- Older Economies. These nations were on the front-lines of the industrial revolution, and developed stable economies, infrastructure, and a middle class early on. In early stages of economic development, a more capitalistic economy progresses faster. Tapping into personal opportunity (sure, greed), also taps into human creativity, technological innovation, focussed effort, and business collaboration. However, as economies become more stable and diverse, there raises a natural tension to care for suffering people, support social programs, and provide assistance to those left behind in the prosperity race.

- European Nations as Micro-cultures. The european borders tend to follow groups of people with common language, heritage, culture, and identity. Like a bunch of different coloured petri dishes squeezed into a tray. Each has many neighbours, but desires to preserve it’s own uniqueness. So they take care of their whole dish. They are all part of a unique society, and preserving it and being proud of it means protecting their society collectively. I once knew a swedish executive that said “How could I possibly call myself a Swede if my neighbour is starving”.

- Scarcity of land and entrepreneurial capital. We’re still in the Wild West over here in N.A. Lots of places to setup business and risk-taking behaviour. The European businesses I deal with analyze the shit out of everything and have committees to talk about what new committees they need. It’s stifling, and way too hard to grow fast and big without existing big backing. So most of the entrepreneurship seems to stall at small cottage industry and lifestyle enterprises. And if you do make it big, they will adjust policy to absorb your business into the national collective. Just ask a Norwegian entrepreneur. Almost extinct—thank Valhalla for rich oil reserves.

- Political Economic Evolutionary Forces. In the fullness of time, Monarchies and Dictatorships are overthrown to become Communisms or Democracies. Communisms fail into Political and/or Economic Reform (both Russia and China still half pregnant), to eventually succumb to some sort of populace-driven democracy. Democratic Capitalisms evolve into balanced mixed economies where political victors find the popular balance between the extremes. If growth opportunities are high, the mix will sway to capitalism and less taxation. If growth rates are low or negative, the mix will sway to socialist agendas. After many many cycles with increasing technical automation lowering labour requirements, medical advances resulting in longer lives with more care requirements, population increase, continued emergence of third-world economies, and the post-cold war era ushering in global political stability and just plain getting along better, the pendulum with glide more and more to the socialist mix, whether we like it or not.

#Puntonomics.
 
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