Why China is swamping the world with (non-pricey) SPs—good or bad?

[tantalizeme]

The world economy is massively impacted by China—and the sex business is no exception. By far the majority of SPs in many Western cities, like Vancouver, are now Chinese.

This seems odd, given that China has a terrible women shortage. China is 10s of millions of marriageable women short, due to the 1-child policy combined with rampant sex selection in favour of boys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortion

You might think, China's women shortage guarantees almost any young Chinese woman many offers of marriage—rather than forcing her to sell sex, with its social stigma and other downsides.

But an avid Sinophile like myself observes very different dynamics. Most men in China are poor. A poor woman doesn't escape poverty by marrying a poor man.

The main reason why many attractive young Chinese women avoid marriage and enter the sex industry is the difference in earning potential between a regular job as compared to an SP job (which tends to pay several times more for shorter hours and less excruciating work).

China's women shortage—together with the notorious boringness of most Chinese marriages and lack of male access to non-commercial sex—has created the world's biggest market for commercial sex. The fact that attracting a desirable wife in China has become so insanely competitive also makes young Chinese men try to get rich by hook or by crook, and causes bride-buying and kidnapping of women from countries like Vietnam.

With an estimated 20 million sex workers at any given time, the number of SPs in China is larger than the population of most countries. Of course, this has to be seen relative to China's population, which officially is around 1.35 billion people (but in reality is probably around 1.8 billion). http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/09/01/is-china’s-population-really-13-billion.ht

Obviously, since many women enter sex work for limited periods, a lot of more than 20 million Chinese women work as SPs for part of their lives. Quite a lot of Chinese SPs are fresh out of school, but others were formerly married and possibly have a child to support.

Women who get married young usually find, the sexual spark doesn't last, so their husband's fidelity doesn't last, so their marriage often doesn't last. Moreover, it's part of Chinese culture that men are possessive, even when they cheat their wives left and right—and male possessiveness tends to get worse under conditions of female scarcity.

This often drives women to leave their marriage and choose the most lucrative option to support themselves, which is SP work. So China has an avalanche of women entering sex work—which, however, creates crushing competition among SPs, in which the younger ones generally win out. What happens to aging SPs in China?

Well, many of them fade back into regular jobs, but Canada and other Western countries receive some of China's aging SP overflow. Of course, there's the extra incentive of higher incomes for Chinese SPs coming to the West.

That's why there's a tide of Chinese SPs swamping the world, held somewhat in check only by restrictive immigration policies and anti-prostitution laws.

 

[rick hunter]

"Of course, there's the extra incentive of higher incomes for Chinese SPs coming to the West."


This is the real reason they're coming over. When I was in HK you can find Asian milfs like at Maggies but hotter for $60-65 for 45 minutes. So if you can come here and make twice what you make in HK why wouldn't you do it?

 

[yazoo]

I would think that a shortage of woman would actually increase the number of SP's. Just like a shortage of taxi's increase your chance on taking a bus.

There are tens of thousands of guys who are single. This has got to create a demand for SP's. A market that both indy's and gangs are more than happy to serve. And of those millions of SP's (and gangs), a few have got to notice that Vancouver is a pretty lucrative market.

Since, relatively speaking, we are a tiny market compared to huge Chinese cities, even a small goldrush is big here.

 

[yazoo]

I would think that it would impact if they were a) totally legal - work permit wise and b) employees. If you are an independent business person, I'm not sure, especially since Canada is joining ASEAN and the TPP and so on. Maybe some rules in those agreements will have side effects.

And I wouldn't really call it outsourcing. Asian providers have the same costs here as domestic when it comes to the costs of incalls, supplies, security etc. Additionally they have the cost of air travel and visa's and so on.

When a business outsources a call centre, the foreign workers have all the advantages of having an office in a low cost foreign country. Micro's have none of that. They just have staff that are willing to work for $120 - $200 per hour instead of $300 or more.

 

[rick hunter]

I would think that it would impact if they were a) totally legal - work permit wise and b) employees. If you are an independent business person, I'm not sure, especially since Canada is joining ASEAN and the TPP and so on. Maybe some rules in those agreements will have side effects.

And I wouldn't really call it outsourcing. Asian providers have the same costs here as domestic when it comes to the costs of incalls, supplies, security etc. Additionally they have the cost of air travel and visa's and so on.

When a business outsources a call centre, the foreign workers have all the advantages of having an office in a low cost foreign country. Micro's have none of that. They just have staff that are willing to work for $120 - $200 per hour instead of $300 or more.

Obviously they're not coming in as SP's. How would you get a visa for a SP? They come in as students or visitors. I don't think HK or Korean visitors require a visa to come here. At places like Maggie, the girls wait around all day for customers to show up. They hardly ever leave the micro.

 

[InTheBum]

The ONLY good thing about Vancouver is all the asian SP's!!! Besides that, this city sucks ass bigtime!!!!

 

[hotjac]

Sociology 69.

Tant briefly touches on the population of China, and I suspect if the numbers were crunched into relativity there is no more, or less Chinese SW's than any other Asian, European, or American country.

As for the reasoning's they are many and varied - not just a made in China excuse; and as for husband's infidelity - it's almost universal and reasoning's again are many and varied.

If there were a common denominator it's as simple as sex feels good; and the amount of single mothers who had children before they were 20, experimenting their sexual curiosity, the same as here, possibly exceeds the West's because of the lack of sexual education with it's alternatives, and believing their teenaged boyfriends words are true - which usually ends with the new mother, without an education or skills, having a limited amount of choices if she wants $$$.

Korean SP's on the other hand are usually consumer driven experimenting with the many credit cards accessible to them to purchase the many things they want - soon they are paying credit card debt off with new credit cards until they get so deep in debt the only way to pay them is obtaining "curb" money (loan sharks) - a relatively normal way of business in Korea, but once you can't pay, you literally belong to them, and are sold and traded until the debt is satisfied, and then the cycle is usually repeated: you buy, you can't pay, you loan, you sell yourself.

Of a more interesting question - is how high up the chain does this process include, in the West we are all told it's triads, or organized crime behind it all; but in fact it can't be done unless there are members of government included too, to help get visa's, and travel permits.

Those that know, know how difficult and how much time is involved in getting such permits - but the many SW's from Asia around the world blatantly displays how easy it is for their sex workers.

 

[susi]

I would think that it would impact if they were a) totally legal - work permit wise and b) employees. If you are an independent business person, I'm not sure, especially since Canada is joining ASEAN and the TPP and so on. Maybe some rules in those agreements will have side effects.

And I wouldn't really call it outsourcing. Asian providers have the same costs here as domestic when it comes to the costs of incalls, supplies, security etc. Additionally they have the cost of air travel and visa's and so on.

When a business outsources a call centre, the foreign workers have all the advantages of having an office in a low cost foreign country. Micro's have none of that. They just have staff that are willing to work for $120 - $200 per hour instead of $300 or more.

i disagree. it is outsourcing and they are stealing canadian workers jobs. it has happened in other industries as well but for some reseason its deemed ok in the sex industry. what about the rights of canadian workers? workers in other industries are outraged at outsourcing, why would we be any different?

their costs are not the same. the biggest difference? income tax. i know many believe sex workers and agencies don't pay taxes, but they do. also we have to pay for medical and legitimate agencies have licensing fees, insurance costs...also must build their business to meet specific codes that micro's do not have to meet by operating in apartment's/residentially zoned spaces.

trying to operate a business in the sex industry in canada has become way more diffuclt since the influx of these workers. i support trying to ensure these workers are not exploited but there are so many that the market is flooded.

i make the comparisson to taxi licenses. there are a limited number. this is done because there is a threshold after which running a taxi is not profitable enough to justiy operating costs. if there are too many cabs, no cabs make money. this applies in other industries as well, trucking for example....i learned alot about the "motor carriers act" this week and the impacts of its removal.

the arrival of so many foreign and illegal workers has seriously undermined the profitability of the sex industry. there are too many workers so it has become difficult for anyone to make money. the undermining of our wages is not unique to the sex industry either.

think to yourself, how would you feel if migrant workers entered your work place, threatened your livelyhood, undermined your wage and then stole your job?

when you guys praise these workers and try to convince us to compete by dropping our wages, you are enabling these workers in stealing our jobs. workers are already facing a dangerous work environment without our wages being undermined in this way.

again, i want to support workers coming here safely and for them to be able to migrate around the planet in search of a beter life, but there are some real problems created by the way it happens now. problems that affect canadian workers, their lives and ability to find jobs.

happy mayday everyone!!
love susie

 

[Pirate Code2]

Really ITB have you gone completely off your rocker. The only good thing about vancouver. Dude go other places and you'll find very few has what Vancouver has to offer.

Badger, ITB has been spouting off about how much he hates Vancouver for years. Millions of people are totally wrong about this place, obviously!! Only HIS opinion counts because he is God and knows everything!

 

[grusse]

The ONLY good thing about Vancouver is all the asian SP's!!! Besides that, this city sucks ass bigtime!!!!

I suppose the solution would be.......LEAVE this "suck-ass" city.

I have the feeling the city would survive your departure.

 

[tantalizeme]

A very valid point of view

their costs are not the same. the biggest difference? income tax. i know many believe sex workers and agencies don't pay taxes, but they do. also we have to pay for medical and legitimate agencies have licensing fees, insurance costs...also must build their business to meet specific codes that micro's do not have to meet by operating in apartment's/residentially zoned spaces.

trying to operate a business in the sex industry in canada has become way more diffuclt since the influx of these workers. i support trying to ensure these workers are not exploited but there are so many that the market is flooded.

Thank you, susi, for your informed input on whether the influx of Chinese SPs is good or bad.

I'm one of your sincere admirers. No one could better articulate what's probably the overwhelming consensus among Western SPs—except that most would be considerably more hostile in venting their frustration about Asian competitors.

I agree with you: it's not fair that illegal foreign sex workers should have to pay no licence fees or business overhead, no income tax and no medical insurance. They make your job—a beloved profession you've practiced so well for so long—increasingly non-viable.

You're right, I'd absolutely hate this to happen to my job.

All I can really reply is, life just isn't fair. For example, as someone driven by proverbial "male lust," I don't find it very fair either that I always have to be on the begging (or paying) end of sex.

To be honest, I've wasted most of my life putting up with insufferable Western women, for the sake of pretty lame GF sex. The presence of Asian SPs in Vancouver—mostly Chinese—is like a godsend that's added immensely to my quality of life.

Luckily, I find most Asian SPs, including Asian MILFS, attractive (and, seemingly, they me). They've made me sexually non-needy for the first time, without blowing a hole in my bank account that would sink me financially.

Surely, you're not asking that guys like me should abstain from this fountain of bliss, for the sake of fairness?

What would you do, in our place?

 

[bill555]

Tant,
Nice Topic.
The following link regarding population: http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2...-13-billion.ht does not work.
Therefore, it would be appreciated if you look into this matter.

 

[tantalizeme]

Tant,
Nice Topic.
The following link regarding population: http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2...-13-billion.ht does not work.
Therefore, it would be appreciated if you look into this matter.

Thanks for your interest, brother—and for pointing out the truncated link.

Just google "true population of China." The article I wanted to link to comes up 3rd for me, but the first two results are worth reading, too.

There's also good stuff for Chinese culture buffs under "sexuality China."

 

[yazoo]

i disagree. it is outsourcing and they are stealing canadian workers jobs. it has happened in other industries as well but for some reseason its deemed ok in the sex industry. what about the rights of canadian workers? workers in other industries are outraged at outsourcing, why would we be any different?

Suzie thank you for your response. I too admire your articulate viewpoints and your tireless advocacy. But on this subject, I disagree.

I guess there are two things at play here - one's philosophy about competition and protectionism in general and very separately, one's view of Asian SP's

Regarding protecting domestic industry - the North American car industry produced absolute crap until its sheer existence was threatened by imports from Germany and Japan. The Germans made them better, the Japanese made them both better and cheaper. Now after North American automakers were forced to adapt or die, you can buy a North American made car that is as good as anything from overseas.

Yes the 'labour' mindset sees this as wrong. We are being unkind to our fellow compatriots if we purchase foreign goods or services. We should all team together and purchase only from each other - even if this means buying products that are priced over the market price, or of poorer quality than the market quality.

And then we give foreign aid to poor countries - but only if they spend it on our goods. But we feel good about our donations that keeps poor countries in the welfare trap. I would much rather give a foreign worker my dollars in return for honest labour, than give it to some charity that will end up spending most of it on admin and fundraising.

Some of us are lucky enough to work in professions where we are protected by geography - the work must be done here. Foreign workers must travel to Canada to take our jobs. That is a very expensive barrier to entry. Others do jobs that can be done by anyone, anywhere with a computer and an internet connection. These workers have to compete by providing the best value. Not necessarily the lowest price, but the best value.

Authors, computer programmers, architects, engineers - they all compete in a global marketplace by providing the best value to their customer, and not relying on the state for protection.

So my consumer philosophy is not to molleycoddle Canadian workers by refusing to buy from imports. I support those who provide the best value - and celebrate when the best value is created here at home. And I put my money where my mouth is everyday by working in an industry that is global.

their costs are not the same. the biggest difference? income tax. i know many believe sex workers and agencies don't pay taxes, but they do. also we have to pay for medical and legitimate agencies have licensing fees, insurance costs...also must build their business to meet specific codes that micro's do not have to meet by operating in apartment's/residentially zoned spaces.

I think you've set up a bit of a false dichotomy by bringing income tax into the picture. Yes hiring a person who doesn't pay tax is unfair to people who do. There are lots of examples of that in the construction industry - where thousands of Canadians work under the table. Not paying your taxes is wrong - whether you are from abroad or local.

But still - I think that even if I accept your assertion that all Canadian providers competing in the marketplace pay taxes - if Asian providers were to pay a 30% tax - their prices would still be less than the amounts charged by Canadian SP's that work out of their residential zoned incalls. And I would argue that the cost of air travel is greater than a tax bill for a representative Canadian SP who declares all of her income.

I think the Canadian SP actually has the home team advantage. They are more attractive with clients who don't appreciate having to struggle with a language barrier, they are more familiar with the legal terrain, they have no travel costs, they can slip in or out of work as they wish, and they can hold a 'regular' job - both as cover and also as income insurance for dry spells - and a fallback for the future when they no longer wish to work as SP's. All in all, I would say that their costs - financial and non-financial are lower.

Now to be honest, I would choose an Asian SP even if others undercut them. It's just my personal preference, but I find their physical appearance, and the style and level of service to suit me better. Maybe my perception is wrong, but when I think Asian provider I think GFE, and when I think Canadian provider I think PSE. Maybe we have the porn industry to blame for that. I'm firmly in the GFE camp and I just thank my lucky stars and the market gods that for some reason I am able to afford an amazing GFE encounter every few weeks.

 

[Tugela]

Will the changes to the temporary foreign worker program impact Asians that come here to work as SP's, or are they exempt from those laws?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/04/29/pol-temp-foreign-workers-changes.html

It won't have any impact because Canada doesn't issue visas for people to come here and work as SPs.

Every one who does, is working illegally and violating the terms of whatever visa they were issued.

 

[Tugela]

Suzie thank you for your response. I too admire your articulate viewpoints and your tireless advocacy. But on this subject, I disagree.

I guess there are two things at play here - one's philosophy about competition and protectionism in general and very separately, one's view of Asian SP's

Regarding protecting domestic industry - the North American car industry produced absolute crap until its sheer existence was threatened by imports from Germany and Japan. The Germans made them better, the Japanese made them both better and cheaper. Now after North American automakers were forced to adapt or die, you can buy a North American made car that is as good as anything from overseas.

Yes the 'labour' mindset sees this as wrong. We are being unkind to our fellow compatriots if we purchase foreign goods or services. We should all team together and purchase only from each other - even if this means buying products that are priced over the market price, or of poorer quality than the market quality.

And then we give foreign aid to poor countries - but only if they spend it on our goods. But we feel good about our donations that keeps poor countries in the welfare trap. I would much rather give a foreign worker my dollars in return for honest labour, than give it to some charity that will end up spending most of it on admin and fundraising.

Some of us are lucky enough to work in professions where we are protected by geography - the work must be done here. Foreign workers must travel to Canada to take our jobs. That is a very expensive barrier to entry. Others do jobs that can be done by anyone, anywhere with a computer and an internet connection. These workers have to compete by providing the best value. Not necessarily the lowest price, but the best value.

Authors, computer programmers, architects, engineers - they all compete in a global marketplace by providing the best value to their customer, and not relying on the state for protection.

So my consumer philosophy is not to molleycoddle Canadian workers by refusing to buy from imports. I support those who provide the best value - and celebrate when the best value is created here at home. And I put my money where my mouth is everyday by working in an industry that is global.


I think you've set up a bit of a false dichotomy by bringing income tax into the picture. Yes hiring a person who doesn't pay tax is unfair to people who do. There are lots of examples of that in the construction industry - where thousands of Canadians work under the table. Not paying your taxes is wrong - whether you are from abroad or local.

But still - I think that even if I accept your assertion that all Canadian providers competing in the marketplace pay taxes - if Asian providers were to pay a 30% tax - their prices would still be less than the amounts charged by Canadian SP's that work out of their residential zoned incalls. And I would argue that the cost of air travel is greater than a tax bill for a representative Canadian SP who declares all of her income.

I think the Canadian SP actually has the home team advantage. They are more attractive with clients who don't appreciate having to struggle with a language barrier, they are more familiar with the legal terrain, they have no travel costs, they can slip in or out of work as they wish, and they can hold a 'regular' job - both as cover and also as income insurance for dry spells - and a fallback for the future when they no longer wish to work as SP's. All in all, I would say that their costs - financial and non-financial are lower.

Now to be honest, I would choose an Asian SP even if others undercut them. It's just my personal preference, but I find their physical appearance, and the style and level of service to suit me better. Maybe my perception is wrong, but when I think Asian provider I think GFE, and when I think Canadian provider I think PSE. Maybe we have the porn industry to blame for that. I'm firmly in the GFE camp and I just thank my lucky stars and the market gods that for some reason I am able to afford an amazing GFE encounter every few weeks.

You seem to think that any foreign worker can just decide to come here looking for a job, and they are just given a visa. It doesn't work that way. You will only get a visa if there is a shortage in your profession and it is deemed to be in Canada's interests for you to fill that need.

You pretty much have to have a job waiting for you, and your employer has to satisfy Immigration Canada that they can't find people here to do that job. So, unless you have some special needed skill, you aren't getting a work visa.

There are people who come here with different sorts of visas, and work anyway, but they are violating the terms of their visa and essentially are illegal immigrants subject to deportation if caught.

 

[yazoo]

You seem to think that any foreign worker can just decide to come here looking for a job, and they are just given a visa. It doesn't work that way. You will only get a visa if there is a shortage in your profession and it is deemed to be in Canada's interests for you to fill that need.

You pretty much have to have a job waiting for you, and your employer has to satisfy Immigration Canada that they can't find people here to do that job. So, unless you have some special needed skill, you aren't getting a work visa.

There are people who come here with different sorts of visas, and work anyway, but they are violating the terms of their visa and essentially are illegal immigrants subject to deportation if caught.

Of course, they could always buy their way in:thumb:

You are right of course. Our laws do protect local workers from foreign workers. I suppose that there are some good reasons for those policies but in our Darwinian world protection creates weakness. In the long run countries who have the competitive marketplaces are the ones who produce the best products.

My job could quite easily be legally outsourced in a flash. I have to compete by being more agile, more versatile, and providing a more comprehensive service than anybody else in the world. I have to keep up every day. I guess that's why I don't have too much sympathy for those who want immigration canada to protect them.

 

[Pillowtalk]

Of course, they could always buy their way in:thumb:

You are right of course. Our laws do protect local workers from foreign workers. I suppose that there are some good reasons for those policies but in our Darwinian world protection creates weakness. In the long run countries who have the competitive marketplaces are the ones who produce the best products.

My job could quite easily be legally outsourced in a flash. I have to compete by being more agile, more versatile, and providing a more comprehensive service than anybody else in the world. I have to keep up every day. I guess that's why I don't have too much sympathy for those who want immigration canada to protect them.

There are a lot of different jobs where real work visas are issued to foreign workers. It appears that Alberta has a lot of Mexican construction workers who are brought in on those, and Whistler/Blackcomb businesses have a lot of foreign workers working legally. They also have what appears to be a lot of interest among those foreign workers who do not get a 2nd or 3rd work visa to come back into the country on a travel visa fully intending to work at a job waiting for them.

There is no real reason why foreign sps cannot apply for a work visa at a massage parlour, with an employer who is fully licensed and providing both the job and the documentation necessary for that kind of employment the same way a dishwasher or sky lift operator is provided with both a job waiting and the documentation for it.

Lets face it they dont because they can pay those workers less because they are working undocumented under the table. Nothing is paid by the employer to the government for EI or CPP, in any of those cases either, a portion of the business revenues that go to neither the worker or the employer, just into the government pockets. There are a lot of savings to be had by an employer who hires illegal workers.

susi was making a point, because it is about May Day, the workers rights day in many countries, another point completely missed by the OP, probably lol

fwiw, this accusation of hostility on the part of sps, why is it that has to be used against sps and not, say for recent example, RBC employees? Are the RBC employees worried about job security and fairness, or is it just sour grapes because the RBC employer figured out a way to undercut salaries, and potentially give other employers ideas about how to reduce the Canadian workforce and replace it with illegals for cheaper?

Does nothing for the economy if the money paid out isnt spent in the country, and the rising unemployed bankrupt social services, and trickle down trickle down to whatever job that now employs you, the OP, and others, so that even the cheapest 80-100 PSE sopam is going to be too much money to spend

 

[yazoo]

Lets face it they dont because they can pay those workers less because they are working undocumented under the table. Nothing is paid by the employer to the government for EI or CPP, in any of those cases either, a portion of the business revenues that go to neither the worker or the employer, just into the government pockets. There are a lot of savings to be had by an employer who hires illegal workers.

... and Workers Compensation, and statutory holidays, and vacation pay, and other mandatory benefits... you have a very good point. The only counter I would offer is that these workers will never collect CPP, or EI. They will never get free medical other than free STI clinics which serve to protect the health of us all, and they would not receive WCB benefits. So although they don't contribute to our society, they don't benefit from it either. But my argument is weaker - I think you win on this point!

susi was making a point, because it is about May Day, the workers rights day in many countries, another point completely missed by the OP, probably lol

I think that workers have a right to safe workplaces, reasonable hours, dignity and so on. But this does not mean that they are free from competition.

fwiw, this accusation of hostility on the part of sps, why is it that has to be used against sps and not, say for recent example, RBC employees?

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you mention an accusation of hostility. Was it in this thread or another one?

Are the RBC employees worried about job security and fairness, or is it just sour grapes because the RBC employer figured out a way to undercut salaries, and potentially give other employers ideas about how to reduce the Canadian workforce and replace it with illegals for cheaper?

Probably a bit of both. And it wouldn't be a misplaced worry. Like everything else - you need an edge - something that gives you an advantage over the other person. Some skill that is difficult to outsource. We are lucky to live in a country with an excellent educational system where we can acquire those skills.

Its like living in a house with faulty wiring and worrying about a fire then asking the government to spend more money on fire trucks that can get to your burning house in seconds. You have the answer in your own self-sufficiency. Fix the wires.

Does nothing for the economy if the money paid out isnt spent in the country, and the rising unemployed bankrupt social services, and trickle down trickle down to whatever job that now employs you, the OP, and others, so that even the cheapest 80-100 PSE sopam is going to be too much money to spend

I guess I'm more of an optimist. Globally we are seeing as poor countries get richer they have money to spend. They are buying our resources and our technology and the services of our skilled workers. We are selling to the world and doing very well at it. I don't see the funding of our social services threatened at all.